Boston Globe article revisits Men's quads vs. "artistry" debate

I love how from the title alone we can tell that the article is going to be biased. Because we actually can have both, the quads and the artistry.

I like Adam Rippon's take on things though.
 
This is not reflective of the current situation in skating at all. Hanyu Chan Fernandez and Ten and some others can all do quads and be artistic. Its like this is the beleif that quads are too much jump and too athletic and no one who does them can be artistic because they are spending to much time on quads.
 
Dear Lord, this articles quads vs artistry, while the current record holder has:
1. Artistry
2. Multiple quads in both programs
3. Transitions in and out of all his jumps including quads with short setups
4. One of the best spins in the world
5. Skating skills
6. Choreography

So where is this error here that I can't find ? :confused:
 
caseyedwards said:
This is not reflective of the current situation in skating at all. Hanyu Chan Fernandez and Ten and some others can all do quads and be artistic. Its like this is the beleif that quads are too much jump and too athletic and no one who does them can be artistic because they are spending to much time on quads.
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Absolutely! But there could be an limit on quads as they can take a toll on the body (Nathan Chen).
 
Interesting article. Nice to hear Adam and Max's thoughts. I realize that there are only a few elite skaters right know who can combine both artistry and athletics, with Hanyu leading the pack who will stand on the podium. That said it will not diminish my enjoyment of the other talented men who will be competing at Worlds.
 
I'm sorry but you cannot tell me that it takes as much energy to do spins - mind Adam that Yuzu is also doing more difficult spin variations/changes of position and has higher quality spins - as it does to do quads, let alone multiple quads. 6th or 7th is the best Adam can hope for. That's even probably pushing it. His "artistry" and quality is over-rated, and he doesn't particularly have superior or even good skating skills. He's just average in most aspects...
 
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To be honest i feel like the A team is sitting at home with injuries for the US Men with the exception of Max. This might be Adam's last time at Worlds especially with the US Men probably down to 2 spots next year.
 
There are restrictions on how many quads a skater can attempt (and receive credit for). There are 6 types of quads in the scale of values and only 2 may be repeated (once each), so no more than 8 quads are allowed total in the free skate (and only 2 in the Men's SP, none for Ladies). :P
 
overedge said:
Oh, why am I not surprised that @caseyedwards showed up in this thread so quickly :rolleyes:
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Eh, he's right this time.

The world clearly has enough skaters with (multiple) quads and "artistry" to fill a at least the top 5 at worlds ; Hanyu, Chan, Ten, Uno, Fernandez (not my taste but it's there) right off the top of my head.

We just don't have a skater who has *all* the goods right now. If Brown, Rippon, or Abbott could do quads consistently it could be any of them, but they just don't.
 
I just have to laugh at Johnny Weir's PC comments now as a member of the media. As a competitor during the pre-2010 Olympics, Johnny openly despised the insistence in some quarters upon including quads (despite practicing them himself and landing some in warm-ups). And, Johnny vociferously was not a happy camper re having to count appropriate number of endless spins. :duh: I guess he would say his views have changed since he's matured. :p Or, he's being pragmatic and he loves Hanyu, who in turn has always loved and admired Johnny.
 
As I've said before, there are a lot of gray areas in figure skating. Nothing is pristine black or white, and that goes for this ad nauseam quads vs artistry debate.

As for Hanyu, Ten, and Javi Fernandez, Ten is the strongest artistically, but Ten also has consistency and injury downsides. None of them have been known to consistently skate completely clean performances with multiple quads, until Hanyu had his breakthrough in that regard last Fall at two competitive events. Javi has improved in confidence, and he is charming on and off the ice. Yet he is definitely not a top-gun artistically. It is his gorgeous quads when he's on and his likeability, as well as his above average fs talent and potential that has him being over-rewarded by the judges on PCS.

Hanyu has raised the technical ante and he was finally able to skate two clean performances at two events with multiple quads and good presentation, plus his way of flowing over the ice is smooth and appealing. And yet, Hanyu IMHO is not as strong artistically as Ten, Abbott, Rippon, Brown, Takahashi, Savoie, Kozuka, Machida, and the up-and-coming Shoma Uno, or even Deniss Vasiljevs. I think Hanyu's artistry is decent and on the same scale generally as Patrick Chan (unless Chan is in a zone, then I think Chan is able to meld technique and artistry better than Hanyu).

As far as Adam Rippon, he is definitely not in the same league as Hanyu, Ten, Fernandez and Shoma in terms of ripping off quads. But aside from Ten and Shoma, I think Adam is stronger than Hanyu and Fernandez artistically and musically. Plus Adam is more mature artistically at this point than Shoma who is still growing in that regard.

I appreciate a well-rounded musically interpretive skate from Adam Rippon. It will be a bonus if he manages to land a clean quad. The fact Adam has consistently tried (so far unsuccessfully) to land quads is nothing to look down on. Adam has put his heart and soul into trying to be the best he can be. And IMO, Adam edges Hanyu in spinning. While Hanyu has strong competent spins, Adam has better spinning style and aesthetically pleasing positions. As well, Adam expresses the music much better than Hanyu. Sure Hanyu skates confidently to the music and he does his best to emote, but Adam goes deeper with more effortless grace and innate ability.

Anyone who thinks spins do not require enormous energy and mental strength, try doing them in a technically-packed competitive free skate like top figure skaters do. What the skaters we enjoy watching are doing is mind-boggling. Every aspect of figure skating is hard, IMHO. It's easy to look down on something when you are sitting back on the sidelines. IMO what figure skaters do (in one free skate performance) is as or more highly exhausting mentally and physically than what baseball, football and basketball players do in an entire game. There are no rest breaks and time-outs during a high exertion, technically and creatively demanding figure skating performance.
 
In the areas of PCS judges tend to give most weight to, Skating skills and transitions, Chan, Yuzu and Denis are miles ahead of Adam. Musicality, being able to emote, making the audience 'feel' that is subjective so usually fall in-line with TR and SS. There is no 'Artistic mark' any more so it is not 'quads vs artistry' it is TES vs PCS. And if a skater has both, there is no contest. You can see it when he skates, Adam's edgework and SS is behind the leaders.
 
Similie said:
In the areas of PCS judges tend to give most weight to, Skating skills and transitions, Chan, Yuzu and Denis are miles ahead of Adam. Musicality, being able to emote, making the audience 'feel' that is subjective so usually fall in-line with TR and SS. You can see it when he skates, Adam's edgework and SS is behind the leaders.
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Thank you!

I've never gotten the "Adam is so artistic" thing and, while he has some pleasant aesthetic qualities, I've never found him to be very musical or to have exceptional skating skills.
 
Actually D10 is right now the weakest in terms of transitions, and Hanyu strongest. He is struggling with injuiries and he has just basic setups for jumps. There is nothing going on in the section where he has quads and 3A
 
Similie said:
In the areas of PCS judges tend to give most weight to, Skating skills and transitions, Chan, Yuzu and Denis are miles ahead of Adam. Musicality, being able to emote, making the audience 'feel' that is subjective so usually fall in-line with TR and SS. There is no 'Artistic mark' any more so it is not 'quads vs artistry' it is TES vs PCS. And if a skater has both, there is no contest. You can see it when he skates, Adam's edgework and SS is behind the leaders.
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That's your subjective opinions regarding the skaters you enjoy and don't enjoy as much, and your particular understanding of PCS. I've also stated my subjective opinions and personal perspectives based on my experiences and knowledge of watching the sport and learning from great skaters who have written about the sport and served as commentators.

On skating skills alone Patrick Chan is miles ahead of Hanyu, Denis, Adam and the majority of skaters today. Eh regarding transitions which you either have them to a greater, middling, or smaller degree. I don't focus alone on transitions, which by themselves mean nothing if they are just thrown in for point-gathering purposes. I personally don't think Adam has a lack of transitions. You may think his are not as plentiful or as interesting as your deity, Little Prince Hanyu. ;) Obviously quads are the bigger deal right now. Matt Savoie had transitions galore to-die-for that actually meant something to his overall programs and performances. Sadly, that wonderful reality obviously meant zip to the judges back then.

Adam is continuing to work on his edge quality and his skating skills, which are not as horrendous as you might like to believe. I don't feel that Hanyu and Chan are piss-poor skaters artistically. Chan and Hanyu are obviously competent artistically, but not especially naturally gifted and artistically as effortless as they are in terms of technical/ jumping mastery. Hanyu still needs to work on aesthetic aspects of his stretch and positions, but clearly those are considered minor details that his other brilliant qualities are allowed to compensate for.

Adam's choreography, spins and interpretation marks should be quite high as he is consistently excellent in these aspects. But yet as we know, PCS under IJS are generally manipulated for placements. Performance execution should fluctuate for most skaters based on how well they execute each specific performance. Unless you have the judges eating out of your skate boot because you have mastered wowza, relatively consistent quads.

BTW, I think Adam gave such an astute and complimentary response during his recent conference call when he was asked what he thought about Hanyu and what he has learned from watching/ competing with him.

I don't think Adam is a deity of any kind, although I admire his angelic qualities. :D Recently of course Adam has declared he's a witch! :P :cheer2:
 
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