Bill Cosby Meme Generator Backfires

[Southpaw]

I imagine you are telling your daughter what consent is and teaching her well on the issue, though. These kids today have easy access to so much information that we never had, I imagine it can be tough for them to make sense of it all.

 

[quartz]

I imagine you are telling your daughter what consent is and teaching her well on the issue, though. These kids today have easy access to so much information that we never had, I imagine it can be tough for them to make sense of it all.

Yes, it freaks me out how much different things are now for my daughter, and her generation who have grown up with the internet.
She does have a steady boyfriend now, but during high school it was like the boys were lined up for their turn to date her. She is a feisty little spitfire and certainly calls the shots in her relationships, but she is also very petite, and I always worried that she didn't stand a fighting chance if things got more physical than she wanted.
I have never had unwanted attention, nor have I ever been harassed, so it's hard for me to have certain discussions with her, as I have no experience in dealing with that shit.

 

[Southpaw]

Are fathers starting to have these discussions with their daughters, too? There's probably nobody better to teach girls how guys really think than, you know, a guy.

On the subway this morning I saw that Page Six had the headline "Monica Stands By Her Man" so I went online to see what this is all about. That headline isn't used in the online edition of the story. Looks like she's become an advocate against Internet bullying. Good for her!

Lewinsky, now 41, called herself “Patient zero: the first person to have their reputation completely destroyed worldwide via the Internet” at a Forbes Under 30 Summit in October.

http://pagesix.com/2014/11/24/monic...st-name/?_ga=1.116214465.652156858.1411149164

 

[Wyliefan]

Yes, it freaks me out how much different things are now for my daughter, and her generation who have grown up with the internet.
She does have a steady boyfriend now, but during high school it was like the boys were lined up for their turn to date her. She is a feisty little spitfire and certainly calls the shots in her relationships, but she is also very petite, and I always worried that she didn't stand a fighting chance if things got more physical than she wanted.
I have never had unwanted attention, nor have I ever been harassed, so it's hard for me to have certain discussions with her, as I have no experience in dealing with that shit.

A few self-defense courses are never a bad idea. Obviously there needs to be more education than that, but having the knowledge and power to defend herself still a good thing. If things ever do get dicey, it can help her deal with an aggressor.

 

[Karina1974]

I went to private Christian schools and there was no sex ed at all, except for "dancing is forbidden because it leads to sinful things".

Damn. The whole reason I go to contra dances rather than to bars is because #1. contra dances are an overall classier environment than any bars, and #2, I've never been treated with anything less than full respect by the guys I meet at dances. never been hit on, never been groped, and I've never gone home with any of them either, nor has that ever been suggested to me.

 

[PeterG]

We're talking about sex education and daughters. That's important, but those are secondary issues to me. While sex ed is important, the more important topic is objectification of women. You just have to watch the 300 million views of most of the popular music videos to see how females are presented and how males are presented to see how one gender is viewed in a much more human way than the other gender. And while discussions and information for young females is important, it's the males who grow up to use or attack females. So what are we (society/us) doing and saying (or NOT doing and saying) to young males that make them think this kind of treatment of females is in ANY way acceptable??

 

[Jenny]

Self defense classes are a good idea, but they don't work for everyone. For me, the most important lessons came from my father when I was a kid and teen - instead of scaring me with all the bad stuff that could happen to me, his lesson was that I should be aware of my surroundings and the people around me at all times, and that I should be in control of situations as much as possible. He also helped me hone observation skills so that I would be aware when a situation was changing, and gave me a million practical tips for staying safe. Not saying it's the solution to everything, but what he taught me helped me navigate a ton of dicey situations back then, and it's stayed with me even now, decades later.

 

[Karina1974]

A few self-defense courses are never a bad idea. Obviously there needs to be more education than that, but having the knowledge and power to defend herself still a good thing. If things ever do get dicey, it can help her deal with an aggressor.

This. I'm still waiting for a story about how a guy attempted to rape some woman and wound up in intensive care because she busted something heavy like a chair over his head. We need to start teaching the younger generation of women that it is always OK to act like a bitch if the guy is being disrespectful, because being "nice" and "ladylike" sets you up for being a target. If I had any daughters they wouldn't have a choice about being put into Martial Arts, although it would have to be a school that also teaches the psychological side - that when it comes down to it, you fight until your attacker is laid out cold on the ground.

 

[Jenny]

Also wanted to make a comment about the original topic - one thing that has struck me in all the media coverage I've seen so far - this article is typical for example - is that all Cosby and his lawyer have to say is that they either won't dignify the allegations with a comment, or that it's old accusations that have never been proven, or that there's no evidence, or that people need to get their facts checked.

Anyone else see the glaring omission here? Where are the statements by Cosby and/or his lawyers that say quite simply "it's not true; I never did this; I have never given a woman drugs for the purpose of sexually assaulting her; I have never had sexual relations with a woman who was unconscious, passed out or asleep; and I would never, ever treat a woman like that"?

To me, Cosby's response and that of his people to all this sounds guilty as charged by 16 women and counting.

 

[susan6]

We're talking about sex education and daughters. That's important, but those are secondary issues to me. While sex ed is important, the more important topic is objectification of women. You just have to watch the 300 million views of most of the popular music videos to see how females are presented and how males are presented to see how one gender is viewed in a much more human way than the other gender. And while discussions and information for young females is important, it's the males who grow up to use or attack females. So what are we (society/us) doing and saying (or NOT doing and saying) to young males that make them think this kind of treatment of females is in ANY way acceptable??

Precisely. Why is the onus on telling daughters to adapt their behavior? I'm more interested in sex education and sons. How do you teach your male children about treating females like people and not as conquests or pieces of meat? Because there's a LOT of cultural aspects that are teaching the opposite.

 

[Southpaw]

Oh, I fully think the onus is on males AND females to keep their own behavior in check. I'm not a feminist, I'm an equalist. And I do think that there is a lot of information out there now that is putting certain ideas into peoples' heads about what is appropriate and what is not. If visual stimulation did not affect human behavior then the advertising industry would never exist.

 

[Jenny]

This. I'm still waiting for a story about how a guy attempted to rape some woman and wound up in intensive care because she busted something heavy like a chair over his head. We need to start teaching the younger generation of women that it is always OK to act like a bitch if the guy is being disrespectful, because being "nice" and "ladylike" sets you up for being a target. If I had any daughters they wouldn't have a choice about being put into Martial Arts, although it would have to be a school that also teaches the psychological side - that when it comes down to it, you fight until your attacker is laid out cold on the ground.

For the sake of other women out there, I would like to add some caution to this. Yes, I'm sure this is a good thing for many women and has effectively saved them from greater harm. However, I believe there is a downside too. I think instilling false confidence in girls and women by having them think they can defend themselves physically could potentially lead to bad decision making when they don't take other steps to protect themselves. In a classroom setting or in one's imagination we might think we can handle it, but in a real world situation, there might be many other factors - an attacker who is far stronger than you, who knows how to protect himself from defensive tricks (especially a repeat offender), the emotional state of the attacker, the potential for other circumstances that make it harder to defend yourself (injury, darkness and confusion, alcohol, etc), the potential for more than one attacker, etc.

For example, from the sounds of Cosby's MO, training in physical self defense wouldn't have helped any of his victims avoid assault. Sharper awareness and simple precautionary steps might have.

 

[once_upon]

Education is a nice thing to say, self defense courses are nice, but this goes beyond sex education. It means the education needed includes the facts on who is a rapist, how do we reduce in the "shaming" of the victim and we need to address the social influences that impact everyone is more important - music videos, TV, movies, streaming videos, games, etc..

Who is an offender, Who is a victim

If the rapist is someone that the victim knows (the majority of the rapes or attempted rapes), they often convince themselves that they are in love with the perp in order to justify the incident as something that was love rather than violence. We need to teach everyone that when someone says no (male, female, straight, gay or bi situations) it means no. We need to teach that being under the influence of drugs or alcohol does not imply consent.
/soapbox

 

[Southpaw]

It also means that we can't start going on witch hunts, either, and start being paranoid and suspicious of every single guy who crosses a woman's path.

I was reading this editorial about college assault cases earlier...

Defense lawyers who argue that their male clients have been discriminated against should be on the same side as advocates for female victims who say universities don’t treat sex crimes seriously enough.

Their grievance is the same: This is amateur hour, which is dangerous for everyone involved.

There are chilling examples not only of mishandled victims, but of men who get railroaded by the system. As lawyer Judith Grossman described of her own son’s case – in which he was accused by an ex-girlfriend of “nonconsensual sex” during their relationship years prior, allegations that were ultimately dismissed – the tribunal does what it wants, Bill of Rights be damned.

Grossman said her son was not allowed to face his accuser, have a lawyer in the room, present his own witnesses or evidence. There was no cross-examination. He was given only the vaguest description of the accusations against him.

http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf...men_too_editorial.html#incart_related_stories

 

[Southpaw]

I thought this was a great point in the WSJ article that's linked above.

Across the country and with increasing frequency, innocent victims of impossible-to-substantiate charges are afforded scant rights to fundamental fairness and find themselves entrapped in a widening web of this latest surge in political correctness. Few have a lawyer for a mother, and many may not know about the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education, which assisted me in my research.

There are very real and horrifying instances of sexual misconduct and abuse on college campuses and elsewhere. That these offenses should be investigated and prosecuted where appropriate is not open to question. What does remain a question is how we can make the process fair for everyone.

I fear that in the current climate the goal of "women's rights," with the compliance of politically motivated government policy and the tacit complicity of college administrators, runs the risk of grounding our most cherished institutions in a veritable snake pit of injustice—not unlike the very injustices the movement itself has for so long sought to correct. Unbridled feminist orthodoxy is no more the answer than are attitudes and policies that victimize the victim.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324600704578405280211043510#livefyre-comment

 

[Jenny]

Agree that a balanced approach is required. While it seems likely that most cases are based in fact - I think there are studies to this effect - false accusations do happen, and they can ruin lives even if never proven in court. Even when disproven later on, the damage may already be done.

There's also the danger of rushing to judgement. Authorities - police, governments, school administrations, sports leagues etc - are pressured by public outrage to take decisive action, which can lead to false arrests and judgements and other consequences for the falsely accused. We've seen it happen many times in the distant and recent history, and today's environment only makes it a greater danger IMO.

 

[aliceanne]

One thing that puzzles me is how pre-teens and teenagers are alone with opposite sex coaches and mentors, especially at night in their hotel room. Not that it excuses the predator (they are the adult). No matter how hazy I might have been on the details of sexual encounters that is one thing I would have instinctively known was wrong. Have times changed that much?

I can't help wondering if the parents are guilty of turning a blind eye to celebrities and setting the example for their children. I can't imagine my parents allowing an adult male pay for my college education no matter how much I needed the money. They would have immediately suspected an ulterior motive.

 

[Jimena]

Oh, I fully think the onus is on males AND females to keep their own behavior in check. I'm not a feminist, I'm an equalist.

Believing in equality of the genders is, indeed, feminism. Not sure why you think otherwise.

And why do we focus on how a woman can protect herself? To me, that's just the other side of victim blaming. And I'm not saying not to teach our daughters how to protect themselves. That's necessary. But it's very striking to me how discussions about rape or about intimate partner violence become discussions about the victim rather than the abuser.

I quote Jackson Katz, an activist on partner violence issues: "We start with “‘John beat Mary’.... the second sentence says the same thing in a passive voice, ‘Mary was beaten by John,’ and now a whole lot has happened in one sentence... We’ve shifted our focus in one sentence from John to Mary.” And when the focus shifts further, you get “‘Mary was beaten’, and now it’s all about Mary; we’re not even thinking about John... and the final sentence in the sequence, flowing from the others, is ‘Mary is a battered woman’... [and] John has long ago left the conversation.”

And this is why when people talk about rape, and flip it to start talking about "the women's rights movement" and the "feminist left" and how they're making being male into a pathology, I get angry. Can't help it. They're making it about women, again, rather than about the real problem. Rape is common. Women don't report it and police don't investigate it. And people start talking about the problem of the "feminist left" or the "goal of women's rights"? Please. GMAFB.

And about this quote from the article above: "Across the country and with increasing frequency, innocent victims of impossible-to-substantiate charges are afforded scant rights to fundamental fairness and find themselves entrapped in a widening web of this latest surge in political correctness."

I want to see the source for her assertion.

 

[Southpaw]

Believing in equality of the genders is, indeed, feminism. Not sure why you think otherwise.

OK then I'm a feminist.

I want to see the source for her assertion.

Then why not email the author and request it?

 

[Wyliefan]

For the sake of other women out there, I would like to add some caution to this. Yes, I'm sure this is a good thing for many women and has effectively saved them from greater harm. However, I believe there is a downside too. I think instilling false confidence in girls and women by having them think they can defend themselves physically could potentially lead to bad decision making when they don't take other steps to protect themselves. In a classroom setting or in one's imagination we might think we can handle it, but in a real world situation, there might be many other factors - an attacker who is far stronger than you, who knows how to protect himself from defensive tricks (especially a repeat offender), the emotional state of the attacker, the potential for other circumstances that make it harder to defend yourself (injury, darkness and confusion, alcohol, etc), the potential for more than one attacker, etc.

Mind you, I'm not saying it's the perfect solution that will work 100 percent of the time. I'm just saying, for many, it can be a help. There's no way we're going to completely change the world all at once -- I truly wish we could, but we can't -- so, while we work on changing it, learning to fight back against attackers is one step in the right direction.

 

[once_upon]

I think most of us are "star-struck" at times, feel flattered that someone who is a celebrity or a coach would be interested in either us or our kids, and somewhat naive. Then there is the trust factor that someone would protect us or our kids.

In the mid 80's there was a newspaper reporter in my area who was considered to be a great guy and there would be contests for him to take someone to the prom. The story would be written up and read by many people in the area. It was an honor to be selected to be a part of his story. Should this have set off all kinds of warning bells? Yep, but it didn't and pretty much the whole community thought the guy was great. Until the first allegations came out - and even then, not so much. Then there was the pediatrician who was a coach for select teams - parents thought their kids were safe with him, a great guy and a pediatrician. Yep, a sexual predator. Then another pediatrician who is a "great husband, father and grandfather" - recently convicted and will not leave prison before he dies (given his age and his sentence).

We trust, maybe when we shouldn't. We are flattered when we shouldn't be. But I think blaming the parents or the victim isn't the way to go about addressing the problem.

 

[Aceon6]

We trust, maybe when we shouldn't. We are flattered when we shouldn't be. But I think blaming the parents or the victim isn't the way to go about addressing the problem.

Agree 100%.

As for the self defense classes and cautions on same, our police department has a decent class on avoiding assault that is taught to the 9th graders. They teach to trust your gut. When your gut is telling you you are in an unsafe situation, they teach flight techniques as #1, but they also teach fighting techniques. The ones they teach hamper the assailant for a few seconds allowing the victim to get away.

 

[Southpaw]

We trust, maybe when we shouldn't. We are flattered when we shouldn't be. But I think blaming the parents or the victim isn't the way to go about addressing the problem.

I agree. And we also often mistrust and misread situations when we shouldn't, too. It's really not easy to know who to trust anymore.

I remember on 9/11 I was on a bus on my way into NYC when I heard about the second plane hitting and my immediate response to that news was that it was terrorism. I told myself to get up out of the seat and ask the driver to let me off at the next stop. Then I told myself no, don't overreact and don't be so paranoid. Stay on the bus.

After 9/11 I saw a whole lot of people on subways who appeared "suspicious" and I'd have to go through mental gymnastics every single time. "Is there a bomb in that backpack? No, I'm sure it's a laptop. Quit being so paranoid!"

One day I could very well get on a subway and that bag that I think is a laptop may be something else entirely.

So when is a gut feeling correct, and when is it unreasonable paranoia? Hard to distinguish sometimes.

 

[quartz]

I don't even know if I have gut instinct. Never having been in a situation where I was made to feel uncomfortable, or suspicious, or felt the need to keep an eye out for my safety, I don't know how I would react if I were to find myself in one.

 

[Aceon6]

So when is a gut feeling correct, and when is it unreasonable paranoia? Hard to distinguish sometimes.

That's a tough one. I know it's not good to generalize, but I do believe that younger people are fairly successful at figuring out which adults creep them out and which ones don't.

 

[Karina1974]

I agree. And we also often mistrust and misread situations when we shouldn't, too. It's really not easy to know who to trust anymore.

I remember on 9/11 I was on a bus on my way into NYC when I heard about the second plane hitting and my immediate response to that news was that it was terrorism. I told myself to get up out of the seat and ask the driver to let me off at the next stop. Then I told myself no, don't overreact and don't be so paranoid. Stay on the bus.

After 9/11 I saw a whole lot of people on subways who appeared "suspicious" and I'd have to go through mental gymnastics every single time. "Is there a bomb in that backpack? No, I'm sure it's a laptop. Quit being so paranoid!"

One day I could very well get on a subway and that bag that I think is a laptop may be something else entirely.

So when is a gut feeling correct, and when is it unreasonable paranoia? Hard to distinguish sometimes.

Sounds like you had a touch of PTSD, quite likely from the fact that you were on that bus going into NYC at the time of the attacks. No one knew what else was going to happen on that day after the first plane hit.

 

[snoopy]

Is there a difference between blaming the victim and pointing out prudent behavior?

Sometimes I think we get so concerned with not blaming the victim that we take away all agency on the part of women. Pointing out prudent behavior is not intended to let perps off the hook, but to give women tools that can help avoid or deal with such situations in the first place.

 

[Southpaw]

That's a tough one. I know it's not good to generalize, but I do believe that younger people are fairly successful at figuring out which adults creep them out and which ones don't.

I think that's true. I think younger people think a whole lot of older people are creepy. We saw that dynamic play out in To Kill A Mockingbird. I remember being creeped out by some older people when I was young, and now I look back and I think wow they weren't really creepy, they were just weird.

Of course there are plenty of older people who really truly are creepy. Cripes, there are a whole lotta kids who are creepy, too.

Sounds like you had a touch of PTSD, quite likely from the fact that you were on that bus going into NYC at the time of the attacks. No one knew what else was going to happen on that day after the first plane hit.

Yes, everybody around these parts pretty much does. Or did. The sound of low flying airplanes tend to make us say "oh crap not again."

 

[aliceanne]

Maybe we forget that celebrities are strangers because they seem so familiar to us. Their public image is a product generated by a publicist and not necessarily who they are in private life.

 

[Jenny]

That's a tough one. I know it's not good to generalize, but I do believe that younger people are fairly successful at figuring out which adults creep them out and which ones don't.

But are they given the go ahead to act on it? Not sure about nowadays, but when I was a kid, we were told to obey our elders, whether relatives, teachers, coaches, school bus drivers or next door neighbours. If a kid said "I don't like Mr So and So," or "I don't want to go to gymnastics class anymore," they might just as easily be admonished for not being respectful or being a quitter or the like. And I'm not saying parents were bad - it was just the way as I recall more often than not. Now mind you it's entirely possibly that parents were paying close attention and talking it over with other parents and taking action, but from the kid's perspective, the lesson was to keep quiet and don't question people in authority positions.

And later there's so much pressure from other kids - for example if a kid isn't comfortable with something, the other kids might chide them to "grow up" or "be cool." That happened a lot when I was a kid, and from what I can tell, it hasn't changed.