The Skating Lesson

[muffinplus]

Did you know that at most levels, FS judges are not required to be former competitors?

http://usfigureskating.org/story?id=89433

“Q: Do I have to be a really good skater to be a judge?
A: Technical knowledge of figure skating is essential, but each person starts with a different degree of skating knowledge. While former skaters usually have a broader base of technical knowledge when beginning the trial judging process, ability as a skater is not in itself the measure of judging ability. There are many good judges who only skated recreationally - in the long run, temperament and willingness to serve are of more importance. A limited skating background should not discourage anyone interested in becoming a judge. Individuals who are new to the sport must be willing to put in the hours necessary to acquire technical knowledge, from studying texts and attending judge's schools to skating themselves (preferably with quality instruction).”

That has nothing to do with judging though? Knowing how to judge based on set criteria is not the same as knowing about jump mechanics etc...

 

[jmtfti]

Can someone please explain what did Dave mean when he said these phrases, which do not correspond to any "inside knowledge" about "issues".. what are the "stories" behind these comments? (towards the end, @50+ min)

- "that Jordan, from On the Ice Perspective, who seems to be kissing the butt of all skaters"?

If Dave doesn't know that Jordan Cowan is a retired ice dancer who trained at the Detroit Skating Club only a few years ago -- and thus is in a position to already know many of these skaters he films, and easily make connections with those he didn't already -- then really all Dave has done is expose his own lack of knowledge further.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

For whatever reason, writing this made me have a flashback to a really random Bridesmaids quote - "Why can't you be happy for me and then go home and talk about me behind my back like a normal person?"

I never thought of Dave as Kristin Wiig's character, although this does remind me somewhat of a TSL recap.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

It's his right I guess. Just talking about him and TSL is fanning the flames. He wants that.

Agreed.

Any publicity is good publicity. Yikes!

 

[Willin]

Can someone please explain what did Dave mean when he said these phrases, which do not correspond to any "inside knowledge" about "issues".. what are the "stories" behind these comments? (towards the end, @50+ min)

- "it is the passive aggressive Canadian tactic"?
- "Kirk vs. Nikodinov dead-mom points"?
- "that Jordan, from On the Ice Perspective, who seems to be kissing the butt of all skaters"?

There's a new instagram account this year, On Ice Perspectives, that films some really cool footage of skaters skating. Because it looks cool and offers a unique view of great skaters it became very popular very quickly with both skaters and fans. It started on February 2nd of this year and already has 17k+ followers.
As @jmtfti points out, the person who runs it is also a former ice dancer who already knew a lot of the subjects, but it appears a lot more top skaters simply want to be shot in that style. Because of his place in the skating community he's also been able to get footage at places like Stars on Ice practices, shows, competitions (Lake Placid Ice Dance), and American Ice Theatre - all places that Dave hasn't been allowed to get into. Jordan has no need to kiss anyone's butt to get to where he is, he just needed the connections he had, a good attitude to maintain them, and a unique perspective to bring.

I would assume Dave is saying this because he's jealous that a genuinely nice and talented person got to all the places he couldn't get.

 

[laviemn]

I'm not reaching with anything I said, because he no longer has press credentials to events. Many skaters have been told not to associate with him. People within federations have said not to talk to him. Many skaters that he does associate with, he ends up badmouthing in some way later on and then those connections end. Dave and Jenny were getting interviews all the time way back when, and now- not so much. There are still a few, yes, hence why my choice of words was 'she took away a lot of the access'.

Sure, I don't doubt that he'll never get another press credential to Nationals, or that he'll never get to interview a lot of people again. And it is less professional without Jenny.

But all of that hasn't prevented him from increasing the view counts on his videos since the Jenny days. And he still lands enough big names to give his channel relevance. I mean, we're certainly not discussing any other skating vloggers to this extent, nor are any of them getting anywhere near the same number of viewers. If TSL were only getting like 3000 views per video, no one would talk about Dave either. And the more people talk, the more relevance he has.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ But the audience and platform that has been built exists because of Jenny's credibility. DL squandered his relationship with Jenny, and he's turned off a lot of people. Just by virtue that the viability of the TSL platform still exists, and because of new fans tuning in on Youtube, and some old fans continuing to desire skating news and event coverage, that's what's keeping TSL afloat, along with those skating insiders who are still giving DL the time of day.

Other people have given him a trial period after he grovelled for forgiveness and if he puts a foot wrong they will crush him underfoot like a bug.

I picture a mean vision of Trumpster and DL being crushed like bugs under the gigantic foot of their own snark and excessive narcissistic impulses. DL may not be as bad as DT, but there is similar behavior that's very off-putting and negatively infective. DL may be smarter, wittier and more genuinely passionate on subjects that interest him than l'orange golfing loafer DT, but that's what makes DL's ego-driven behavior so offensive.

 

[aftershocks]

And that's what makes his snarky excesses, his irresponsible behavior and his worst personality traits so sad and woefully intolerable.

I totally get your point, but he doesn't bother me. There are a number of reasons to hate him, but if you don't like TSL-don't watch. He has done some wildly inappropriate things and it's hard for me personally to get through him and Jonathan's episodes because they are so long, but it is what it is. Dave isn't going to change. Jenny has 0 to do with TSL at this point, but he still has a lot of credible sources until they run out he's going to continue his same format. He does this for free basically so he can say what he wants. It's his right I guess. Just talking about him and TSL is fanning the flames. He wants that.

You make some great points, of course @Cleo1782. No lie. Continuing to watch TSL and to comment fans the flames, which is what DL wants, and what he obviously needs. Eh, but saying he does it for free. I mean so what. He wants people to watch, doesn't he? If he wishes to charge a fee, let him. He obviously was unable to hold onto the sponsors he and Jenny initially had. DL apparently continues with TSL because he's obviously very much into the sport. He brings knowledge and passion, but he also brings a ton of ego and snarkiness that he thinks is funny when most often it's simply offensive. He's been given leeway, support and suggestions galore to steer himself in a workable direction. Maybe he's tried a little to temper himself, but he can't. He's crossed the line too often on too many occasions. And he's never fully accepted personal responsibility for his mistakes, nor has he ever wholeheartedly and genuinely apologized. He's just made excuses and shut down or cast aspersions on those who point out his failings.

I no longer watch the way I used to. I've purposely stayed away from watching most recent episodes, including the Raf interview and the Doug Haw interview and a couple of other episodes that came before the AC and Nepala 'half-assed' review episode, which I did tune into. Watching has been an addictive habit I'm going to do my best to break (and that's because of DL's unrelenting negative approach; for me DL's bad side outweighs any good he has to offer).

 

[Deleted member 53443]

I like the show, and take it for what it is, I don't really understand all the energy put in the venom here. You would think Dave kills babies reading some here.

I think the show would be a lot better if there was a counterpart on the show to DL and Jonathan who had very opposite opinions and could channel them as aggressively as DL does. My favorite sports pundits are Gary Neville and Jamie Callagher for the Premier League, they represent two teams "hating" each other and they sometimes start fighting in the studio which is just great and very entertaining. And they both know their stuff. If you had only Neville it would be impossible to watch, but now he hears it right away.

Imagine someone on there, giving DL hell when he dismisses Bradie Tennell for example. And let them go at it. And then still be friends after.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Please fix your close quotes @Per. The first part of the above, attributed to me are @Cleo1782's comments. The second part that appears to be the beginning of your response, are my comments. ETA: Okay, I see what happened. I needed to fix the extra close quotes that got into my initial post in response to Cleo1782. I fixed it, so you should rework your above post accordingly. ETA2: Ah okay, thanks for removing the quotes altogether...

BTW, one doesn't have to 'kill babies,' in order to be nasty and offensive. And your reference to 'venom' is very much like DL acting blameless and innocent after mocking and dissing skaters and then being called out by fans in a no-holds-barred way. As usual, snarky bullies do not like when the tables are turned and they get a taste of their own medicine.

OTOH, you make a good suggestion regarding a possible improved TSL format. However, I do not see thin-skinned DL being able to manage such a 'sports-pundit counterpart' format ego-wise. Don't you see how DL controls JB's commentary that doesn't match his own snarky points-of-view. And genial 'follow-the-leader' JB falls right in line.

DL would never allow anyone to 'give him hell' re his snarky dislike of Bradie Tennell. As others have already noted, DL will not significantly change. He seems incapable of self-reflection, much less behavioral change. Forget about him ceding any kind of control over the current format. Why do you think Jenny had enough and left? It definitely was not all about her wanting to attend law school.

 

[Deleted member 53443]

Fans in general don't want to watch "pundits" to hear opinions that contradict their own. If they like a skater, they turn in to listen to hear how someone else also like her/him. It's a way of tribalism. If instead, the guy is having lots of critique, he is an idiot because we live in a society where if you have other opinions than me you're a bad person (generalizing I know but it still is my, well, opinion).

Now, having said that, the other side is that having opinions is 100000000x easier than actually doing something. There could be way bigger respect from them both for how hard people work and what it takes to go out on that ice. A scene from "Mozart in the jungle" comes to mind where the oboe girl is lashing out at the rude administrator. This rings pretty true to me since I am a classical musician, and after all the work and anguish that comes into a concert, some undereducated nobody writes in the paper the day after telling everybody who wasn't there how it actually was.

Do you know how many hours I've spent practicing the oboe? I'm 26.
I have practiced five hours a day seven days a week since I can remember.
Why don't you tap that into your computer and figure that shit out? Making reeds, having no social life.
I didn't know how to swim or ride a bike until well into middle school.
How long have you been sitting at that desk practicing how to be a bitch and being ****ing rude to people? Maybe you're just a natural at it.

 

[aftershocks]

Fans in general don't want to watch "pundits" to hear opinions that contradict their own.

I was simply commenting on your format reworking suggestion for TSL. I personally can't generalize about what motivates fans to watch the 'sports pundit' variety of shows. Seemingly, for sports like football, baseball, and basketball, fans enjoy hearing the pundits yell at each other and get into it with variant takes and oneupmanship, which is generally lighthearted for the most part. Figure skating is a different animal altogether than the big ball sports, as is DL/ TSL.

Re your other comments: Quite clearly, DL and JB should show more respect to hardworking skaters...

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Quite clearly, DL and JB should show more respect to hardworking skaters...

Therein lies the problem. They just act so above it all.

 

[Tavi]

That has nothing to do with judging though? Knowing how to judge based on set criteria is not the same as knowing about jump mechanics etc...

I understand why you say that, but I disagree. Many teachers in many disciplines can teach things they can’t actually do, or do well, as long as they understand the mechanics of what they’re teaching. That understanding can come in many ways, and includes applying similar experiences to the task at hand.

I think it’s the same for critics. No, Dave hasn’t done a 3A or quad anything, but he has skated seriously as an adult and done other things to inform himself. I don’t always agree with him, but I wouldn’t write him off as unknowledgeable just because he’s “only” an adult skater. JMO

 

[barbarafan]

Fans in general don't want to watch "pundits" to hear opinions that contradict their own. If they like a skater, they turn in to listen to hear how someone else also like her/him. It's a way of tribalism. If instead, the guy is having lots of critique, he is an idiot because we live in a society where if you have other opinions than me you're a bad person (generalizing I know but it still is my, well, opinion).

Now, having said that, the other side is that having opinions is 100000000x easier than actually doing something. There could be way bigger respect from them both for how hard people work and what it takes to go out on that ice. A scene from "Mozart in the jungle" comes to mind where the oboe girl is lashing out at the rude administrator. This rings pretty true to me since I am a classical musician, and after all the work and anguish that comes into a concert, some undereducated nobody writes in the paper the day after telling everybody who wasn't there how it actually was.

Do you know how many hours I've spent practicing the oboe? I'm 26.
I have practiced five hours a day seven days a week since I can remember.
Why don't you tap that into your computer and figure that shit out? Making reeds, having no social life.
I didn't know how to swim or ride a bike until well into middle school.
How long have you been sitting at that desk practicing how to be a bitch and being ****ing rude to people? Maybe you're just a natural at it.

Well you must feel much better getting that off your chest. Thank-you so much for the education. Should anyone ask me which instrument they should take up my answer will now be "Anything but the oboe". I always wanted to play the piano...often as a child I played music in my head on the piano...picturing the keys. We could not afford a piano.My grandfather who was a violinist and a pianist died before I was born...His beautiful piano was passed down to his son who had 3 rambunctious children who refused to learn piano but thought it was great fun climbing to the top of it and jumping on it. Funny how life turns out.

 

[CaliSteve]

Back in the day when trousers were so form - fitting, you could guess a man's religion just by glimpsing 'down there'.

And that is not a bad thing

 

[sap5]

I understand why you say that, but I disagree. Many teachers in many disciplines can teach things they can’t actually do, or do well, as long as they understand the mechanics of what they’re teaching. That understanding can come in many ways, and includes applying similar experiences to the task at hand.

Dimitri Soloviev once commented on this issue:

Dmitri: In fact, we have a lot of judges and technical specialists who have nothing to do with figure skating. I can not say that this irritates me, but I can not understand – by what criteria they judge, if they do not know how this should be done. We are athletes and we know how to do this or that element correctly. And they judge based on what is written on paper. If I do not understand how the mechanism works from the inside, I will not advise, and, moreover, become a judge. At the same time, there are so competent judges who previously had nothing to do with figure skating, but they can even advise something.

https://fs-gossips.com/ekaterina-bobrova-and-dmitri-soloviev-our-sport-is-very-subjective/

 

[Cleo1782]

He is not doing it for free. His site is monetized, and he has John Wilson Blades sponsorship (with a disclaimer that the site's opinions may not reflect company's views).
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheSkatingLesson

Dave is not just giving opinions, which would be fine no matter how extreme they are. He is financially capitalizing on "unproven gossips" which maybe damaging to individuals and teams in the skating communities. He says things not because that is how he feels or thinks or feels strongly about. He stirs up sh.t and makes harmful accusations to gain attention to his site to make money, at other people's expense.

The equivalent of what he is doing, for example, is to put on an invisible string on a side walk to make people trip, in order to film them falling and screaming in funny poses, and then sell the videos for profit. You can film people, and you can film them if they trip naturally, i suppose..... but you have no right to make them trip and to make money off it.

I don't believe John Wilson sponsers him anymore. That was an old video. I haven't seen that disclaimer in the last year.
I don't think he makes much if any money off of it. He talks about his regular job a lot.
Him and Jenny did have sponsors at one point.
Even if he does make some money I doubt it's enough to cover, say, a full week at Nationals.
It's basically just an opinionated skating blog with a fairly large following (for skating). It's like a TMZ/Perez Hilton type site except they make actual money.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I don't believe John Wilson sponsers him anymore. That was an old video. I haven't seen that disclaimer in the last year.

Each time, i click in youtube on "TSL", i get this page, and the first Video in the square starts playing with John Wilson blades commercial. https://www.youtube.com/user/TheSkatingLesson

I do not check DL's social media (i think he has other outlets somewhere) other than go directly to TSL event videos, so i am not sure of his sponsorship. But JW Blades pop up each time, even a minute ago.

 

[Tavi]

Dimitri Soloviev once commented on this issue:



https://fs-gossips.com/ekaterina-bobrova-and-dmitri-soloviev-our-sport-is-very-subjective/

First, technical specialists are required to have reached a certain competitive level.

Second, he contradicts himself.

 

[Cleo1782]

Each time, i click in youtube on "TSL", i get this page, and the first Video in the square starts playing with John Wilson blades commercial. https://www.youtube.com/user/TheSkatingLesson

I do not check DL's social media (i think he has other outlets somewhere) other than go directly to TSL event videos, so i am not sure of his sponsorship. But JW Blades pop up each time, even a minute ago.

That video is a Brian Orser video from last year. His most recent This and That about Autumn Classic, for example, from a few days ago does not carry that disclaimer nor do any videos from the last months. That's just the video that is embedded on their page. It has Jenny's voice on it as well. It doesn't reflect current sponsorship. When he releases his videos now on twitter he doesn't hashtag John Wilson like he used to. I would assume this means the partnership is over.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

That video is a Brian Orser video from last year. His most recent This and That about Autumn Classic, for example, from a few days ago does not carry that disclaimer nor do any videos from the last months. That's just the video that is embedded on their page. It has Jenny's voice on it as well. It doesn't reflect current sponsorship. When he releases his videos now on twitter he doesn't hashtag John Wilson like he used to. I would assume this means the partnership is over.

Maybe TSL could get sponsorship from Ginsu. They're experts with knives.

 

[sap5]

First, technical specialists are required to have reached a certain competitive level.

Second, he contradicts himself.

I thought he was contradicting himself the first time I read it, but then I wondered if that last sentence is actually a sarcastic comment rather than a contradiction.

 

[kittysk8ts]

He did not lose access with Jenny leaving as he now had his foot in the door but his behavior without Jenny putting a bit of a leash and muzzle on him caused him to lose his credibility, credentials and access to people. Other people have given him a trial period after he grovelled for forgiveness and if he puts a foot wrong they will crush him underfoot like a bug.

Hhahahahhhaha. Sorry, totally useless and gratuitous post, but this made me lol.

Haha.

 

[Deleted member 53443]

Especially Dave looks so disappointed that Zagitova (meaning in extension Eteri) looked really good. Can somebody tell these guys who think they know a lot about "art" that there is nothing that says that you have to relate to the opera to skate to the music. Actually, why "skate a Carmen" when there IS the opera? It's a piece of music that you can use for any purpose artistically.

I performed in a modern dance show not too long ago with a high level choreographer, who made dancers move extremely slow to very wild music. The effect was stunning. You don't have to re-tell what the music is telling with the body, you can but it's a widely overstated effect.

 

[babayaga]

I know! All he could talk about was how Zagitova may very well loose her jumps next year (since he obviously hoped she would loose them already this season and he was clearly upset it did not happen).

 

[bardtoob]

I know! All he could talk about was how Zagitova may very well loose her jumps next year (since he obviously hoped she would loose them already this season and he was clearly upset it did not happen).

That's not going to happen. Zagitova lacks Medvedeva's and Lipnitskaya's technical flaws. The only thing that could derail Zagitova is becoming top heavy.

 

[skatingguy]

I think Zagitova's rock solid consistency that she had last year could go as she gets a little older - changes in centre of gravity can wreck havoc on a skater's jumps. There seems to me to be more effort needed in the cross-overs this season than last year - more back pumping and choppy skating, but the jumps look very similar to last year at this time.

 

[GreatLakesGal]

My understanding is that Zagitova has been coping with both a growth spurt of several inches and with Osgood-Schlatter disease. Given all that, I think she's doing very well so far this season.

 

[muffinplus]

My understanding is that Zagitova has been coping with both a growth spurt of several inches and with Osgood-Schlatter disease. Given all that, I think she's doing very well so far this season.

Where is this info coming from?