Wachsman / Waggoner - brief appreciation

[olympic]

Wachsman & Waggoner (USA) - 1988 Worlds, Pairs' Long Program

Budapest, HUNGARY - 1988 World Figure Skating Championships, Pairs' Long Program - Gillian Wachsman and Todd Waggoner of the United States had the skate of t...

www.youtube.com

I was pretty blown away by this performance, measuring it by 80s standards (huge throw 2A). They got an SO here in Europe at the '88 Worlds. IMO, they out-classsed Watson / Oppegard, so I was wondering why they didn't get more attention at the time. Some of those moves would garner them favor under the current IJS system and they incorporate some Ice Dancing which is also a thing today

 

[orbitz]

I don't remember Wachsman and Waggoner as being very consistent during their competitive career. The 88 World was one of the few times where they actually delivered. Watson and Oppegard also were extremely good looking, so of course more attention were focused on them.

 

[kwanfan1818]

They skated closer together and with greater unison than many current ice dance teams. Their timing is gorgeous.

 

[alexikeguchi]

Wachsman & Waggoner (USA) - 1988 Worlds, Pairs' Long Program

Budapest, HUNGARY - 1988 World Figure Skating Championships, Pairs' Long Program - Gillian Wachsman and Todd Waggoner of the United States had the skate of t...

www.youtube.com

I was pretty blown away by this performance, measuring it by 80s standards (huge throw 2A). They got an SO here in Europe at the '88 Worlds. IMO, they out-classsed Watson / Oppegard, so I was wondering why they didn't get more attention at the time. Some of those moves would garner them favor under the current IJS system and they incorporate some Ice Dancing which is also a thing today

Gillian used to skate at Sky Rink over the summer along with many competitors based at Long Island and New Jersey clubs, and I remember noticing her as a standout when she was still competing in singles, pretty successfully. I got a gig assisting with tallying and checking the judges scores (since it was all manual at the time) at the 1986 US national championship and was delighted to see Gillian and Todd do so well. They were a bit inconsistent but very strong and elegant skaters. Thanks for the walk down memory lane!

 

[olympic]

Yes. They dethroned Watson / Oppegard at 1986 Nationals. Without checking, I think their best finish was 4th at '88 Worlds (LP in my original post).

I rewatched Watson / Oppegard's 1987 Worlds LP and 1988 Olympics LP and they were a decent pair. The height difference did give them a lot of amplitude with big lifts, throws and twists which matter to judges i guess, but maybe the mirror skating made it harder to appreciate their movements. IDK. W/W brought IMO better MITF (That DS!), musical interpretation and both teams had similar tech content, but W/O had that amplitude. Maybe it was a wash if both teams performed their elements. Good ole DB talked about how they had a serious shot at Bronze during their Olympic broadcast (not linked here). I would have to check their marks against one another at the 88 Olympics to guesstimate how international judges viewed them.

It was interesting to hear Scott Hamilton's commentary during their performance about rumors of retirement and how could that be (!) because they were only 21 and 22, how they would be missed. They certainly would have added to the US pairs field in 1992 but obviously SBS triples were becoming necessary and they would have had to improve.

I think it was mentioned briefly in a thread years ago that they actually didn't get along too well, but maybe I'm misremembering ...

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Gosh, their free skate in Budapest was fantastic. Too bad they didn't skate like that in Calgary at the Olympic Games. Otherwise, Watson and Oppergard may have had a real fight for the bronze, and perhaps a battle for silver with Valova and Vasiliev, either.

 

[Spiralgraph]

W/W did have a serious shot at the bronze medal in 1988, they were in the last flight at the Olympics with Watson/Oppegard.
But Gillian and Todd had errors in their LP at the Olympics and slipped to 5th. (Gee most of us would be happy with a 5th place at the Olympics now)
I really like the choreography of W/W in their program they were both strong skaters; one didn't overshadow the other. But considering the other teams besides Kristi and Rudy in 1989 and going forward, Wachsman/Waggoner could have easily been on the world team for a few more years had they continued on.

 

[olympic]

@essence_of_soy - I thought about Valova / Vasiliev and their place in the pairs hierarchy at the time. Weren't they closer to G/G than the Americans / Canadians? I remember they did beat G/G at 88 Worlds, so I would assume they had a cushion over a team like W/O. They did have SBS triples unlike other top teams including G/G. I have to say that I found their LP that year wanting ...

ETA - BTW, I snuck a peek at the LP scoring spread between V/V and W/O at Calgary:

1988 15th Olympic Winter Games, Calgary - Figure Skating Pairs Results

Fascinating - the SOV, GDR, CZE, FRG, AUS and POL judges all had only a 0.1 spread between them! Ironically, the US and CAN judges had a bigger difference (so much for politik!). Looks like the CAN judge was trying to give Benning / Johnston a shot. Would Watson not falling on the SBS 2A meant an OSM?? Or were those marks meaningless and just used to slot W/O into Bronze?

@Spiralgraph - I think you and I are in agreement on W/W. Beside Y/G, who were the other top US teams in 89 and 90 that they would have needed to beat to get to Worlds? Kuchiki / Sand popped up in 91 to take a bronze but I don't recall them being one of those force-of-nature teams that could steamroll the opposition.

ETA #2 - As state above re W/O as an attractive couple, Oppegard and Waggoner looked like International Male Models (Google it: late 80s pseudo soft-core for gay men) and boy, wasn't hair a big deal back then. I wonder how much $$ was spent on mousse and hair spray back then ...

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

@essence_of_soy - I thought about Valova / Vasiliev and their place in the pairs hierarchy at the time. Weren't they closer to G/G than the Americans / Canadians? I remember they did beat G/G at 88 Worlds, so I would assume they had a cushion over a team like W/O. They did have SBS triples unlike other top teams including G/G. I have to say that I found their LP that year wanting ...

ETA - BTW, I snuck a peek at the LP scoring spread between V/V and W/O at Calgary: Fascinating - the SOV, GDR, CZE, FRG, AUS and POL judges all had only a 0.1 spread between them! Ironically, the US and CAN judges had a bigger difference (so much for politik!). Would Watson's not falling on the SBS 2A meant an OSM?? Or were those marks meaningless and just used to slot W/O into Bronze?

@Spiralgraph - I think you and I are in agreement on W/W. Beside Y/G, who were the other top US teams in 89 and 90 that they would have needed to beat to get to Worlds? Kuchiki / Sand popped up in 91 to take a bronze but I don't recall them being one of those force-of-nature teams that could steamroll the opposition.

I'm sorry Katy Keely and Joseph Mero didn't make a World Team or two. Their free program at Skate America in 1986 showed real promise.

Keeley & Mero (USA) - 1986 Skate America, Pairs' Long Program

Portland, Maine, USA - 1986 Skate America, Pairs' Long Program - Katy Keeley and Joseph Mero of the United States won the Long Program and ended up moving up...

www.youtube.com

I always found their skating so much interesting and dynamic than direct rivals, Natalie and Wayne Seybold. Apart from lacking any real connection to one another, their programs always seemed so dull and cumbersome.

 

[Spiralgraph]

Olympic,
I agree with you about Kuchiki/Sand. They were a surprise bronze medalist at 1991 Worlds, they skated well and things just fell into place for them so that they were on the podium. To me the were above average by American standards but they lacked chemistry as a team. That 12 year age difference between Natasha and Todd made it seem they were skating together as their job, not as two equal partners on the ice. In that sense I wasn't surprised when Jenni Meno and Todd paired up the next season.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Olympic,
I agree with you about Kuchiki/Sand. They were a surprise bronze medalist at 1991 Worlds, they skated well and things just fell into place for them so that they were on the podium. To me the were above average by American standards but they lacked chemistry as a team. That 12 year age difference between Natasha and Todd made it seem they were skating together as their job, not as two equal partners on the ice. In that sense I wasn't surprised when Jenni Meno and Todd paired up the next season.

1992 US Nationals were the best.

There were so many fun pair teams including Karen Courtland / R. Todd Reynolds, Jennifer Heurlin / John Fredrickson, Tristin Vega / Richard Alexander, Sharon Carz / John Denton, and my personal favourites, Tracy Damegella / Doug Williams.

Troy Goldstein from memory, skated in three events, senior men's singles, and senior pairs and senior dance with his sister, Dawn.

There was also a junior team, Nicole and Gregory Sciarrotta, trained by John Nicks, who were a direct copy of Kuchiki and Sand, right down to the music choices and costumes, too.

 

[olympic]

It still begs a question of where Wachsman / Waggoner would’ve ranked if they stuck around until 1992 if for the sake of argument they maintained the 1988 jump layout : Throw 2A and 3S. SBS 2As. Were any of these new US pairs landing SBS triples? I think Y/G had one but they split in 1990.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

It still begs a question of where Wachsman / Waggoner would’ve ranked if they stuck around until 1992 if for the sake of argument they maintained the 1988 jump layout : Throw 2A and 3S. SBS 2As. Were any of these new US pairs landing SBS triples? I think Y/G had one but they split in 1990.

Meno and Wendland had sbs triple toe loops, and Urbanski and Marvel certainly practiced them in Orlando. As a singles skater, Kuchiki had a triple toe, and Todd Sand had one when he competed in singles prior to his pair career.

Vega and Alexander also had sbs triple toe loops as well.

I think if Wachsmann and Waggoner had stayed in, they may have added a second set of double axels, or substituted the throw double axel for a triple loop.

Yamaguchi and Galindo had sbs triple toes, sbs triple flips, and sbs double axels. I wonder if they too had stayed, would they have boosted their throw double loop to a throw triple loop.

 

[kwanfan1818]

To me the were above average by American standards but they lacked chemistry as a team. That 12 year age difference between Natasha and Todd made it seem they were skating together as their job, not as two equal partners on the ice.

In the TV broadcast, IIRC of Worlds, but it could have been Nationals, Kuchiki was interviewed, and she was icked out by the age-difference. That's why I didn't have much sympathy when she said she was blindsided by Sand teaming up with Meno: if that's the way you feel about your partner, why should he stay, unless it's his only option to skate.

I'm not arguing with her feelings, but that she expected a partner to remain with her when, aside from likely being obvious on a day-to-day basis, she just broadcast it on national TV.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

In the TV broadcast, IIRC of Worlds, but it could have been Nationals, Kuchiki was interviewed, and she was icked out by the age-difference. That's why I didn't have much sympathy when she said she was blindsided by Sand teaming up with Meno: if that's the way you feel about your partner, why should he stay, unless it's his only option to skate.

I'm not arguing with her feelings, but that she expected a partner to remain with her when, aside from likely being obvious on a day-to-day basis, she just broadcast it on national TV.

I think Natasha may have also experienced a growth-spurt between their world bronze in 1991 and Skate America later that season. Their free program was an absolute nightmare, starting with a scary crash on the split triple twist lift.

 

[olympic]

Meno and Wendland had sbs triple toe loops, and Urbanski and Marvel certainly practiced them in Orlando. As a singles skater, Kuchiki had a triple toe, and Todd Sand had one when he competed in singles prior to his pair career.

Vega and Alexander also had sbs triple toe loops as well.

I think if Wachsmann and Waggoner had stayed in, they may have added a second set of double axels, or substituted the throw double axel for a triple loop.

Yamaguchi and Galindo had sbs triple toes, sbs triple flips, and sbs double axels. I wonder if they too had stayed, would they have boosted their throw double loop to a throw triple loop.

Y/G hanging in there until 1992 is definitely a worthwhile topic of discussion; where they would've ended up in Albertville 92, but Kristi would probably have sacrificed what became a great singles career.

Interesting topic re W/W in 92 when they would've only been in their mid-20s. I am sure the other, newer US pairs doing SBS triples were not necessarily consistent on them (which US pair actually is ). The top US pairs heading to Albertville were Urbanski / Marval and Kuchiki / Sand. I think I'll rewatch their performances to get a sense of whether W/W would've been competitive with them.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Y/G hanging in there until 1992 is definitely a worthwhile topic of discussion; where they would've ended up in Albertville 92, but Kristi would probably have sacrificed what became a great singles career.

Interesting topic re W/W in 92 when they would've only been in their mid-20s. I am sure the other, newer US pairs doing SBS triples were not necessarily consistent on them (which US pair actually is ). The top US pairs heading to Albertville were Urbanski / Marval and Kuchiki / Sand. I think I'll rewatch their performances to get a sense of whether W/W would've been competitive with them.

Knowing that W/W had sbs double axels was key to pairs' skating from 1989 - 1992.

Couples really needed them to compete in the short program, and given how solid their other elements were, they could have placed in the top three or four in that portion of the world championships in 1989 had they stayed.

As a team, they presented a very powerful and mature look on the ice as well, and could certainly have ridden the wave of their fourth place in 1988 to a medal the next year.

 

[Erin]

In the TV broadcast, IIRC of Worlds, but it could have been Nationals, Kuchiki was interviewed, and she was icked out by the age-difference. That's why I didn't have much sympathy when she said she was blindsided by Sand teaming up with Meno: if that's the way you feel about your partner, why should he stay, unless it's his only option to skate.

Is this the fluff piece you are thinking of?

1990 World Figure Skating Championships Pairs Free CBS

youtu.be

I didn't interpret her as saying she was icked out - she said she didn't really think about it. It sounded like she was a bit scared to work with Todd at first, but that they developed a decent working relationship after that.

Incidentally, that fluff piece is one of the most misogynist pieces of crap I've seen. It's right up there with some of the most offensive gymnastics fluff pieces.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I'm sometimes amazed that Urbanski and Marvel stayed together as long as they did. Rocky always looked like he wanted to murder Calla when they skated together.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I didn't interpret her as saying she was icked out - she said she didn't really think about it. It sounded like she was a bit scared to work with Todd at first, but that they developed a decent working relationship after that.

I wasn't convinced, but Nicks also said she spent two minutes in his office and ran out crying and that "it wasn't an auspicious beginning."

ETA: I think the entire piece was condescending.


ETA 2: I remember her as being a little older, too.