the saga of Jian Ghomeshi

If this guy had the chance at an early point in this saga to eat his ego and walk away from this situation and he didn't, choosing instead to post FB rants, threaten legal action, etc, it's certainly coming back to haunt him. I hope the accusers see justice here and don't get dragged through the mud in the process.
 
So far it sounds like the police are working very hard to treat the accusers with dignity, and that the law is taking this very seriously. There is a lot of talk now about the charge of "overcoming resistance by choking," which is somewhat unusual, but carries a maximum penalty of life in prison. Speculation is that the crown is positioning the case to get a long prison sentence for Ghomeshi, rather than the shorter sentences that usually come with sexual assault.

Reports also say the case like won't get to trial for a couple of years, but in the mean time, other than prepare his case, there's little he can do - along with his PR firms, his agent and publisher have dropped him and two speakers bureaus have also dropped him, as well as the artist he represented for many years. Without a passport he's stuck in a country where just about everybody knows everything about him - and has strong opinions about him. Interesting also that his Facebook and Twitter accounts and his official website have all been taken down.
 
His legal council told him to take down his Facebook & Twitter accounts. The Crown attorneys will have to work extra hard to prepare their witnesses for Ghomeshi's lawyer. Apparently, she is absolutely brutal in cross examinations. Another lawyer wrote that he would not want to be cross examined by her. Well prepared witnesses should hold up.
 
algonquin said:
Apparently, she is absolutely brutal in cross examinations. Another lawyer wrote that he would not want to be cross examined by her. Well prepared witnesses should hold up.
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I think that if there was only one accuser, this could be the major issue, but there are too many stacking up against him, and as we've seen, the two who have so far told their stories publicly are well spoken and have already acknowledged the kind of info that a defense attorney could exploit. I would not be surprised if in the months and years leading up to trial, other victims and other colleagues come forward with their stories, just to get it all out there in the public realm and avoid blindsides in the courtroom.

Even if he succeeds in getting a reduced sentence or even avoids prison, and even if some legality gets him a settlement from CBC through his union, his career is over, and perhaps just as importantly to him, his social position is lost. It's possible that if he lays low, really works on his issues and re-emerges many years from now, he might find some small sliver of society where he can live and work, but he'll never regain a fraction of what he had before all this IMO.
 
There will not be a settlement from CBC. He has dropped his lawsuit and is required to pay the CBC's legal fees of $18,000. There is no way his Union, who I believe also represents some of the women, will be pushing wrongful dismissal.
 
Well I did see a small interview with a union rep who said that they have a legal obligation to him - so they can't just wash their hands of him, they have to tread carefully.
 
It must be absolutely brutal to be cross examined as the accusing witness in a criminal sexual assault case.

I hope these women understand, no matter what the legal outcome is, that in a way they have already won - by coming forward, by lodging complaints. Whether or not they have made their names public. Others have gained strength and comfort in realizing that they are not alone in being victimized, in surviving (both the assault, the shame afterward, and the public ridicule).

These women have shown that there is strength in numbers. There are more of us - those who'll stand up and say that this is wrong, that this shit should not happen again - than there are perpetrators.
 
mag said:
There will not be a settlement from CBC. He has dropped his lawsuit and is required to pay the CBC's legal fees of $18,000. There is no way his Union, who I believe also represents some of the women, will be pushing wrongful dismissal.
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I wasn't referring to the lawsuit as we know that has been resolved. While I can't see the union somehow rallying for him and scoring a big victory, as Skate Talker notes the union has an obligation to represent its member, and depending on the terms of the union contract and perhaps his own employment contract, there may be some payment owed to him based on the particulars of his departure - for example he may still have access to a pension or other benefits, or some period of salary payments based on notice given, seniority, etc.
 
Jenny said:
...I would not be surprised if in the months and years leading up to trial, other victims and other colleagues come forward with their stories, just to get it all out there in the public realm and avoid blindsides in the courtroom...
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I have been trying to remain impartial about Ghomeshi. I see his situation as different from the Bill Cosby situation as Cosby used drugs and the power of his celebrity with (young) females who wanted help breaking into show business. But a question just popped into my head after reading Jenny's comment. Has anyone come forward to say, "I had rough sex with Ghomeshi. I liked it. I made sure I knew what I was getting into and he respected my limits and interests". The reason I'm wondering about this is because in my effort to remain objective, I've left space in my mind in regards to his accusers that possibly they were not aware of how rough play works and were not able to set limits accordingly. That said, the aggressive partner needs to be aware of when someone is in over their head and excuse themselves from an encounter when they are not sure the other person knows 100% what they are getting into.

I just find this story confusing...much less clear-cut than the Cosby matter. The women claim abuse, Ghomeshi says he is into rough sex and has always been open about that. Many people posting in this thread seem like they are very clear in knowing exactly what's what with this story, but I feel like there's too much information missing for me to be sure. So I feel confused where it seems like some people posting here know the whole story and are clear about everything...whereas I am not....
 
Peter the Fifth Estate has a program about Ghomeshi tomorrow evening. Perhaps that might answer some of your questions.

Another article about his lawyer - http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/meet-...iant-lawyer-defending-jian-ghomeshi-1.2851592

OK, I admit that I find very skilled lawyers interesting to watch. Should be interesting to see how she handles this case in the courtroom.


Ontario lawyer Peter Cronyn, also a former president of the Advocates' Society, said Henein has a "razor quick mind," describing her as "fearless and brilliant" and very strategic in how she handles her cases.

"She's very strong in terms of cross-examination. She gets to the point quickly. Because she's as smart as she is, she doesn't waste time getting to where she needs to get to."

Cross-examining alleged victims of sexual assault is a tricky endeavour for defence lawyers, but Cronyn said Henein will know "when it's appropriate to be aggressive and when it's appropriate not to be."
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PeterG said:
I just find this story confusing...much less clear-cut than the Cosby matter. The women claim abuse, Ghomeshi says he is into rough sex and has always been open about that. Many people posting in this thread seem like they are very clear in knowing exactly what's what with this story, but I feel like there's too much information missing for me to be sure. So I feel confused where it seems like some people posting here know the whole story and are clear about everything...whereas I am not....
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Peter, I understand where you're coming from -- and part of me still want's to keep an open mind and assume innocent-until-proven-guilty. But any confusion and "he said she said" balance tipped long ago for me. The sheer depth and breadth of the allegations against him, and the excruciating details that some of the accusing women have been willing (though reluctantly) to share, leave very little doubt in my mind any more.
 
Artemis@BC said:
Peter, I understand where you're coming from -- and part of me still want's to keep an open mind and assume innocent-until-proven-guilty. But any confusion and "he said she said" balance tipped long ago for me. The sheer depth and breadth of the allegations against him, and the excruciating details that some of the accusing women have been willing (though reluctantly) to share, leave very little doubt in my mind any more.
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Agree. And I think at the start, many - most even - *were* keeping an open mind, starting with his employers. Months earlier he warned them that a reporter was planning a story on him, and he told them it would include details of his sex life, and he liked it "rough" and that it was always consensual. They were apparently with him until he showed them the pictures and videos. Similarly, when he first posted his Facebook message, again saying that he liked "rough" consensual sex, thousands of people liked the post. And there were all the friends and strangers voicing their support on their own social media channels. But then women started telling their stories of being hit, punched and choked without their consent and often as a complete surprise, and the reality seemed to become a lot clearer.

My take is that Ghomeshi's definition of rough sex is rather different than what most of us would call rough sex, and that he apparently doesn't understand the concept of "consensual" at all.
 
The "Like" feature here is like facebook. It's weird to want to click that button when it says "Like" when what I'm really feeling is "Appreciate" or "Informed" by what someone has posted...
 
Also wanted to mention two things about the defense case: just as I wouldn't be surprised to see some more women getting their stories out on their own terms rather than in court, my bet is that the defense is hoping to do the same. I'm guessing that one of the first things his current lawyer asked him about were his past relationships, and if there were any women who might tell a side of the story more closely aligned with his point of view, and that those women have already been approached not just as potential witnesses, but as potential for the PR leading up to trial. It's tricky though, because even if he has had some consensual sexual relationships in the past, finding women who a) want to talk about the private details of their sex lives and b) want to be associated with him now is likely near impossible.

Second is that while often a defense lawyer is trying to clear their client of all charges, just as often they know their client is guilty as charged, and their job is more about getting them a fair trial and the best possible sentence. Her strategy might therefore be less about discrediting the victims entirely, and more about downplaying the severity of what he did to them in an effort to achieve a lighter sentence and potentially leave the door open for him to "recover" in future and be able to live some sort of productive life down the road. Another avenue might also be one that focuses on his mental state, saying that he didn't intend to hurt anyone and that he truly believed his victims were on the same page he was - sort of an insanity defense - and again get a lighter sentence that includes a minimum security facility, shorter sentence, therapy etc rather than doing hard time with other sex offenders.
 
^ I agree with that interpretation of the potential defense strategy. But I would also hope that advising Ghomshi to enter a plea of guilty to a lesser charge or with an offer of lesser sentence might be part of the strategy. That would save everyone time and money, and of course save the (alleged) victims from being dissected in court. Not to mention save us all from hearing about this for months or years to come.

But whether or not that is a legal recommendation will depend on details of the case that none of us will be privy to. And of course Ghomeshi's willingness to accept his guilt. Two huge variables.
 
PeterG said:
Has anyone come forward to say, "I had rough sex with Ghomeshi. I liked it. I made sure I knew what I was getting into and he respected my limits and interests". The reason I'm wondering about this is because in my effort to remain objective, I've left space in my mind in regards to his accusers that possibly they were not aware of how rough play works and were not able to set limits accordingly. That said, the aggressive partner needs to be aware of when someone is in over their head and excuse themselves from an encounter when they are not sure the other person knows 100% what they are getting into.
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Yes, there was one. I read the story by following links posted here.

A big difference between her story and the ones of the women saying he hurt them is that they texted back and forth quite a bit before they ever met in person and used that time to establish all the rules and boundaries. A common theme in the Ghomeshi stories is that these attacks happened on first (and non) dates. There was no or little talk beforehand.

The big red flag for me with these other women is that in not one of these stories do the women and Ghomeshi have a discussion where they agree to a safe word beforehand. In a few cases there was some discussion of how he liked it rough (with no clarification of what that meant) but the majority of the time, the first time the women had any idea of what he liked, it was when he was pulling their heads back by the hair, slamming them into things, choking them, hitting them in the face, and otherwise attacking them. That is not how it's supposed to work.

If anything, the one who seemed not to know how rough play works and how to set limits seems to be Ghomeshi. He certainly seems to have made no effort to do the standard things that adults who do this sort of role playing tell me they normally do.
 
Artemis@BC said:
^ I agree with that interpretation of the potential defense strategy. But I would also hope that advising Ghomshi to enter a plea of guilty to a lesser charge or with an offer of lesser sentence might be part of the strategy. That would save everyone time and money, and of course save the (alleged) victims from being dissected in court. Not to mention save us all from hearing about this for months or years to come.

But whether or not that is a legal recommendation will depend on details of the case that none of us will be privy to. And of course Ghomeshi's willingness to accept his guilt. Two huge variables.
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I am going to go out on a limb and say that Ghomeshi will never lead guilty to anything. I think he does not believe he has done anything wrong and no amount of explaining things to him will change that. A friend recommended a book to me and I think I will find it. It is called Snakes in Suits, When Psychopaths go to Work. I am not saying Ghomeshi is a psychopath, I have no idea either way. My friend just said it was an interesting read about what happens when certain personality types get into positions of power.
 
mag said:
I am going to go out on a limb and say that Ghomeshi will never lead guilty to anything. I think he does not believe he has done anything wrong and no amount of explaining things to him will change that. A friend recommended a book to me and I think I will find it. It is called Snakes in Suits, When Psychopaths go to Work. I am not saying Ghomeshi is a psychopath, I have no idea either way. My friend just said it was an interesting read about what happens when certain personality types get into positions of power.
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So you must be watching Doc Zone on CBC this evening - The Psychopath Next Door. The book Snakes in Suits is mentioned a great deal.

So also not calling Ghomeshi a psychopath - just making note since I was actually watching the program when I read your post.
 
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mag said:
I am going to go out on a limb and say that Ghomeshi will never lead guilty to anything. I think he does not believe he has done anything wrong and no amount of explaining things to him will change that.
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I agree that Ghomeshi is not likely to ever accept that he's done anything wrong. But he also has a fairly well-developed sense of self-preservation, so his lawyer might be able to persuade him take the plea just for the sake of shortening his sentence.

And then he'll write a book about it all. :rolleyes:
 
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PeterG said:
Has anyone come forward to say, "I had rough sex with Ghomeshi. I liked it. I made sure I knew what I was getting into and he respected my limits and interests".
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I don't think anyone has, and I think that's probably fairly telling. Ghomeshi showed how astute he was by posting that message on facebook to colour the way the news would be delivered - he obviously thought his tactics through about how that news was delivered. I would have thought that the best thing that he could do is find a woman who could stand up and make the statement you suggest, the fact there is no-one, to me , speaks volumes.
 
PeterG said:
Has anyone come forward to say, "I had rough sex with Ghomeshi. I liked it. I made sure I knew what I was getting into and he respected my limits and interests".
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Yes, though anonymously. And of course it doesn't mean that he didn't have a different MO with other women.
 
PeterG said:
I have been trying to remain impartial about Ghomeshi. I see his situation as different from the Bill Cosby situation as Cosby used drugs and the power of his celebrity with (young) females who wanted help breaking into show business.
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Why is it so hard for you to believe the women? I'm genuinely asking. Ghomeshi also used his celebrity to gain the trust of young women wanting to make it in Canadian show business and celebrity and success allowed him to prey on women for many years (looking at you CBC).
 
Desperado said:
Why is it so hard for you to believe the women?
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I just typed a really long paragraph...and then deleted it. I think what I typed I might not have explained my thoughts properly and I fear it made me sound like a major a$$@#*! So I'm trying again...

I do not disbelieve the women.

I think where I get confused is that I have experienced enough volatile situations in my life, going back to childhood, that I maybe have a greater sense of being aware of potential danger. A lot of people have led safer lives than myself, so they haven't had to be aware of danger because they simply have not experienced the dangers that others have. So I find it confusing that possibly one or more of these women walked into a situation I would have ran away from. :scream: They probably don't understand people who have been through a lot of sh*# and are overly cautious about life. And I guess in return, I don't understand someone who hasn't had enough fear instilled in them which allows them to simply trust someone....and then get burned.

I think I also need more clarification about Ghomeshi and his consistency...or rather his inconsistencies. Did he assume after a certain number of years that women all knew how kinky he liked things...and then didn't both to explain everything all over again? (Something which is fine to THINK...but not to act on. Yes, you DO have to explain it all over again...each and every time.) Or...as he became more famous, did he think the rules started applying less and less to him? (Wow...there's a side to fame that is quite vile...)

Desperado said:
Ghomeshi also used his celebrity to gain the trust of young women wanting to make it in Canadian show business and celebrity and success allowed him to prey on women for many years (looking at you CBC).
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Some of the women who were raped by Cosby specifically said that they hoped for advice or help from Cosby about breaking into show business. Have some of Ghomeshi's accusers said that wanted this from him as well?
 
PeterG said:
I do not disbelieve the women.

I think where I get confused is that I have experienced enough volatile situations in my life, going back to childhood, that I maybe have a greater sense of being aware of potential danger. A lot of people have led safer lives than myself, so they haven't had to be aware of danger because they simply have not experienced the dangers that others have. So I find it confusing that possibly one or more of these women walked into a situation I would have ran away from. :scream: They probably don't understand people who have been through a lot of sh*# and are overly cautious about life. And I guess in return, I don't understand someone who hasn't had enough fear instilled in them which allows them to simply trust someone....and then get burned.
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I appreciate you taking the time to answer my question and I'm sorry that you had to go through such scarring experiences. I've always seen you as a considerate and understanding poster which is why I don't want to dismiss your thoughts as "blaming the victim" but I've been very cautious over the past months in understanding my mind when my first thought is "what was this girl thinking?!" instead of it being "what a disgusting human male" as you said so well in a previous post. Don't forget that he expressly went after girls in their early 20s, probably targeting the ones with less experience on purpose.

PeterG said:
Some of the women who were raped by Cosby specifically said that they hoped for advice or help from Cosby about breaking into show business. Have some of Ghomeshi's accusers said that wanted this from him as well?
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About mid-way through this article, there's a reference to the University of Western Ontario cautioning students about Ghomeshi.
 
The CBC "Fifth Estate" TV program did an entire episode on Ghomeshi tonight. Very interesting, including the weasel responses from the CBC execs who were apparently aware of the allegations about his abuse of women.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV2wzubgh1M&feature=youtu.be

And now a total of 15 women have contacted the Toronto Star to say that Ghomeshi abused them. And none of them say he even mentioned BDSM or asked for their consent for rough sex.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/11/28/jian_ghomeshi_did_not_ask_for_consent_accusers_say.html
 
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