TES vs PCS- When it comes down to close calls, why do the majority of fans/reporters resort to PCS?

tony

Throwing the (rule)book at them
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I don't expect the majority of figure skating fans to sit and analyze event protocols and specific elements after a close battle, but it seems to me like most (not all) people generally accept whatever the TES score is and rather look to the PCS to cry injustices or disagreements with the scoring.

This is brought up by the Zagitova vs. Medvedeva debate. I personally think some of Evgenia's GOEs are absolutely unexplainable, but I don't see the outcries about that. Rather, most fans and even some media have suggested that the PCS was scored completely wrong. And this isn't the first time.

Why is that? Discuss.
 
I think it's because PCS are much more nebulous/subjective and individual fans are able to create a situation in their minds where their favorite should have won. You can't do that with the TES nearly as easily, but it's easy to convince yourself that Skater X's PCS SHOULD have won the day. Often because of some nebulous interpretation of what PCS actually are. I find that those fans who do study the protocols, elements and rules tend not to do that. Except in dance and dance fans are in a different category altogether and are a total mystery to me.
 
Well if you can say you feel Evgenia's GOE were inflated, I can easily say I feel Zagitova's GOE were really inflated so there you go. Even that can easily be countered.

I think most would in fact agree both Russians had some inflated GOEs so that evens out while Zagitova's PCS were outrageous and far more inflated than Medvedeva's. Osmond and Miyahara meanwhile were overscored nowhere. With fair judging Medvedeva and Osmond both easily beat Zagtiova, and Miyahara possibly does too.

And if your other presumed example is Sochi, that is even more ridiculous as Sotnikova's TES (and how low Kim, Kostner, and even if it wouldn't affect the final medals in the LP Asada's) was deemed outrageous by most and even more controversial than Sotnikova's inflated and skewed PCS.

Epic fail, just like your insistence how at the 2000 Worlds a clean 7 triple Butyrskaya could not have even beaten a subpar Slutskaya for 2nd to overall defend her title when her short program winning scores were much higher than Kwan's LP winning scores, indicating she almost certainly wins the LP in fact, all because you are a Kwan addict and probably dislike Butyrskaya and cant bear the idea even a clean Kwan badly needed not only Slutskaya but even Butyrskaya too to falter to win one of her world titles, just like your silly attempt of an argument here all because you are a Zagitova lover (based on the number of times you defend her like a wild dog in the last month here) and Medvedeva hater.
 
Epic fail, just like your insistence how at the 2000 Worlds a clean 7 triple Butyrskaya could not have even beaten a subpar Slutskaya for 2nd to overall defend her title when her short program winning scores were much higher than Kwan's LP winning scores, indicating she almost certainly wins the LP in fact, all because you are a Kwan addict and probably dislike Butyrskaya and cant bear the idea even a clean Kwan badly needed not only Slutskaya but even Butyrskaya too to falter to win one of her world titles, just like your silly attempt of an argument here all because you are a Zagitova lover (based on the number of times you defend her like a wild dog in the last month here) and Medvedeva hater.

I used to help run Butyrskaya's official website and I definitely preferred her. But good assumptions there! ;) She's my favorite skater of all-time.

Well if you can say you feel Evgenia's GOE were inflated, I can easily say I feel Zagitova's GOE were really inflated so there you go. Even that can easily be countered.

You can say it, but where were they inflated? I already gave the examples of where Medvedeva was highly overmarked TES-wise. I didn't think the judges did any favors for Zagitova in TES.
 
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Easy. Since PCS is far more subjective. TES is far more objective, yes it can be fudged some but more or less it is going to be fair and accurate and there is only so much you can do, while PCS while having some objective critiera is far more opinion based.

Anyway you are presuming most share your view Medvedeva was overscored in GOE or TES, especialy relative to Zagitova of all people who is clearly scored at this event and the last few months far more on the generous side than the conservative side technically; and that if were caring about or bothering to examine TES they would be seeing this, which is not neccessarily the case at all.
 
Ten people could look at the same thing and all have a different perception about how they see it. One person may see a particular skater as amazing and wonderful and another person may find that same skater bores them to tears.
So as skating is a subjectively judged sport, how do you get consensus?
 
An idea: I feel like not many people know or understand figure skating technique well enough to be able to easily judge TES and GOEs. Whereas it's easier to talk about skating skills, intepretation, choreo etc. Lutz/flutz? Edge work? Step sequences? Not so obvious. But I might be wrong, as many FSUers are very knowledgable!
 
I think it's because PCS are much more nebulous/subjective and individual fans are able to create a situation in their minds where their favorite should have won. You can't do that with the TES nearly as easily
That is not exactly true. For every event you can have different results just for Shin Armano as caller. So much of the results is just luck.

I am with Wheeler. In the Lp they really tried to give the win to med by giving her as much goe as possible
 
You can say it, but where were they inflated? I already gave the examples of where Medvedeva was highly overmarked TES-wise. I didn't think the judges did any favors for Zagitova in TES.


Since the poster you quoted got banned, I'll try to step in :lol:

I thought Zagitova's GOEs for the jumps were indeed too high. I mean, her jumps have more or less decent height, she uses difficult entrances, arms over the head etc. but I don't think they're really exceptional, yet she got, if I counted correctly, nine +3s for them by the judges. The lutz in the FS had only one turn before it, it had a weak landing and yet she got one +2 and several +1s (+0.5 overall). She should have rather gotten a 0 for it IMO. We all know her double axel technique isn't that great yet she got only one +1 for the double axel triple toe combo, the rest all +2s. The other jumps also scored very generous GOEs IMO.
 
Zagitova was WAY way way overscored on both TES (GOEs mostly as her levels were called correctly) and PCS. Particularly in the short program. The long program still so, but less so, but it was grossly overscored short program which gave her the win anyway. Medvedeva was a bit overscored on GOE for years, but in her case she atleast partly earned it through being the dominant skater for years; dont like to think that way but that is reality. While Zagitova has done absolutely nothing to earn hers other than becoming the new federation pet due to Medvedeva's lucky (for her) timely injury.
 
Medvedeva was a bit overscored on GOE for years, but in her case she atleast partly earned it through being the dominant skater for years; dont like to think that way but that is reality.

Medvedeva was "just a bit" overscored for years? Come on. She's been the poster child for inflated scores for the past quad.
 
On the general subject of why do people focus on PCS to the exclusion of TES, I think its a very good point, but I do think there has been quite a bit of discussion of GOE during this season here at FSU. I think people have latched onto PCS as the argument for Med over Zag and its kind of at this point just a short hand for claiming Med is a more all-round skater and therefore should have won.

I'd love to entertain the arguments about Med on TES, some day when I recover from the Olys. :lol: I think there are valid points to be made in criticism of Med's skating, some have been posted throughout the season actually.

I do pretty much laugh my ass off at people who think GOE is less subjective than PCS. Sorry guys, the notion that tech is objective stops with the callers at best. It is subjective to ascribe GOE, not at all to say it isn't worthy of discussion and argument.
 
IMHO, TES does need to be appreciated and recognized more in certain fan/reporter circles than it currently is as compared to PCS because despite the element of performance art, jumps, in particular, etc. separate figure skating from being an extended version of ice dance. A beautiful, well-executed jump :swoon: is every bit as relevant and appealing as the general aesthetics of a program.
 
Everyone knows I am in no teknik, but I do try to learn, and the supposed objectivity of TES is mystifying to me. Everyone says you can't compare scores from event to event. There you are. The tech panel is everything. Sit in on the Shib fan thread some time and watch some very knowledgeable people struggle to make sense of how levels are awarded. I look at the scoring difference on jumps and skating skills between Medvedeva and Sakamoto (in Med's favor, which seems backwards to me) and can only think reputation scoring.
 
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Ten people could look at the same thing and all have a different perception about how they see it. One person may see a particular skater as amazing and wonderful and another person may find that same skater bores them to tears.
So as skating is a subjectively judged sport, how do you get consensus?

You don't. It's got a bit less to do with the subjectivity of the judging athough that plays a role. Going to strip that away for a second.

Root issue on the lack of consensus is too many (the majority?) of skating fans including many on here rate the subjective parts of the sport in terms of the overall 'appeal' of the skater and their performance to them personally. ie. if you enjoyed the skater's movement, music and performance, to you they should have rated higher.

That's more a self-imposed set of criteria than what's in the rulebook. Until the majority of people with opinions do so with the PCS rulebook in hand we'll have a better discussion.

Media needs to help facilitate this by ceasing use of the word 'artisty' or 'artistic mark'. Stick to 'program components'. I know this means less to the audience but that's where we need to begin the education and distance IJS from its 6.0 roots.

PCS is much more technical than what people realize. Your ability to perform and 'feel the music' only drives a part of the PE and IN marks. Just a piece. Of two of the fiver components. The majority of PCS is driven by more technical things like skating vocabulary, ability to generate effortless power, layout of your elements, difficult and complex transitional movements, movements that challenge your balance and clarity of your movement. Goes on and on. We're still stuck in an era where people think the second mark is highly driven by the impact the skater has on their audience. Not so much.

I ask people on here if you have ever watched a program and thought "I felt nothing watching that program, but it was clearly the best overall including PCS.....?"
If you find yourself thinking that, there's hope, because you can cast personal taste aside and evaluate a program critically. For me personally I finally got there watching Yuzu's short in 2014. The rock music one. Loathed the program. Was almost unwatchable for me....but I felt it was neck and next with Patrick's much 'better' program (my taste) in a clean skate.

So once we start having proper IJS-based conversations on PCS will we be able to start making some ground in terms of alignment.
 
I don't expect the majority of figure skating fans to sit and analyze event protocols and specific elements after a close battle, but it seems to me like most (not all) people generally accept whatever the TES score is and rather look to the PCS to cry injustices or disagreements with the scoring.

This is brought up by the Zagitova vs. Medvedeva debate. I personally think some of Evgenia's GOEs are absolutely unexplainable, but I don't see the outcries about that. Rather, most fans and even some media have suggested that the PCS was scored completely wrong. And this isn't the first time.

Why is that? Discuss.

GoE discussions are only now just starting to creep into the narrative, as they should be. But for now, PCS is still the bigger fish to fry for a few reasons that are all interrelated.

1. History. Skating has traditionally been debated over the second mark, so that's where people look first. The world has yet to catch on to the fact that first mark can be split into two parts - base value plus a quality adjustment, which has subjectivity.

2. PCS has a much bigger impact at this point. Sadly, it's still judged and seen as one big blob of a mark in 'aristry'. See my post above. Judges are effectively judging it as one mark, as seen by the narrow band between all marks in PCS. If it really was judged separately, we would see some athletes wih 6.0 SS and 9.25 IN marks...because they are out there. TV and the way scores are read in-areana pile all 5 components into one mark. No granular discussion of "hey I don't get that SS mark...way too high".

I think we are more likely to parse a discussion on GoE. Like if we said it was too high someone would say 'on what element exactly...?' vs you never hear people saying 'which component is too high...?' if someone says PCS is too high. That never happens. Thought of as one mark.

And it's a big mark. A full PCS point means 10 pts in men's long and a bit less in ladies because of the factor. If a skater went from +2 to +3 on everything you're looking at a much smaller impact on the total mark. PCS is like 55-95 pts of your total mark depending on what event, whereas GoE is like 0-15 ish. Easier to focus on PCS.

3. Following from above, PCS swings have been much more suspicious in addition to the impact. As Brennan pointed out, Zag's PCS has gone up almost 10 pts this season alone for the same skate. I would argue that components wise her skate in KOR was her worst of the season but that's another discussion. If her PCS held from earlier in the season, she's in bronze position. Many would agree with me that even that is pretty generous. Same discussion over Sotnikova -- how her PCS shot up in only a few months from low 8s to mid 9s. Completely changed the outcome of the event and there is no explanation for it (hint, you can't go into crowd reaction, skate of her life etc etc as her skates earlier in the year were comparable. IJS has no factor for how much audiences loved your skate because 98% of judging happens in small community arenas with no audience. Same system is applied. So audience enjoyment means almost zilch. And even if it did, why didn't only PE and IN mark go up? SS, TR and CH weren't any better and in fact were watered down a smidge going into Sochi. But I digress...)

All that to say history right up to and including this year have allowed us to point right at PCS and ask questions. Zero accountability from panels to explain this mark.

I dread TES values being lowered and GoE going to +/- 5. GoE will then because of its greater impact be brought into the debate, further highlighting not only subjectivity but the failure to mark what's actually done on the ice.
 
Because PCS is the closest thing we have to rewarding "artistry" however you define it and it's the art that made most of us fans in the first place unless you really are just a numbers person who has a compulsion to add GOE and PCS and find ways to maximize TES.
 
I take PCS as stock exchange prices.
Judges uses them indicate a global level, ie in which club skaters are belonging : the kings and queens, the wannabe, the nobility and the rest.
No matter the judge, they are quite stable figures and seasonal trends are quite indicative of who is in contention and who is not.

In december, on french forum, I took all the favorites and compared "clubs" and trends about their PCS (I simplified the figures by taking out the .00)

Here are the girls and I'll add theirs PCS at Euros, 4CC, Olys.

Ladies (1st GP, 2nd GP, GPF, Euros or 4CC, Olys)

Kostner
PCS SP 36 / 37 / 37 / 38 / 38
PCS FS 73 / 75 / 74 / 75 / 75

Osmond
PCS SP 35 / 34 / 36 / -- / 37
PCS FS 71 / 70 / 72 / -- / 75

Miyahara
PCS SP 34 / 33 / 35 / 34 / 35
PCS FS 68 / 71 / 71 / 69 / 71

Zagitova
PCS SP 31 / 31 / 35 / 36 / 37
PCS FS 68 / 69 / 70 / 75 / 75

Medvedeva
PCS SP -- / -- / -- / 38 / 38
PCS FS -- / -- / -- / 77 / 77

Sotskova
PCS SP 31 / 32 / 33 / 33 / 33
PCS FS 65 / 67 / 68 / 67 / 67

I'd say the trend was quite stable, except for Osmond (who rose a bit) and Zagitova (who rose a lot).
 
I take PCS as stock exchange prices.
Judges uses them indicate a global level, ie in which club skaters are belonging : the kings and queens, the wannabe, the nobility and the rest.
No matter the judge, they are quite stable figures and seasonal trends are quite indicative of who is in contention and who is not.

In december, on french forum, I took all the favorites and compared "clubs" and trends about their PCS (I simplified the figures by taking out the .00)

Here are the girls and I'll add theirs PCS at Euros, 4CC, Olys.

Ladies (1st GP, 2nd GP, GPF, Euros or 4CC, Olys)

Kostner
PCS SP 36 / 37 / 37 / 38 / 38
PCS FS 73 / 75 / 74 / 75 / 75

Osmond
PCS SP 35 / 34 / 36 / -- / 37
PCS FS 71 / 70 / 72 / -- / 75

Miyahara
PCS SP 34 / 33 / 35 / 34 / 35
PCS FS 68 / 71 / 71 / 69 / 71

Zagitova
PCS SP 31 / 31 / 35 / 36 / 37
PCS FS 68 / 69 / 70 / 75 / 75

Medvedeva
PCS SP -- / -- / -- / 38 / 38
PCS FS -- / -- / -- / 77 / 77

Sotskova
PCS SP 31 / 32 / 33 / 33 / 33
PCS FS 65 / 67 / 68 / 67 / 67

I'd say the trend was quite stable, except for Osmond (who rose a bit) and Zagitova (who rose a lot).
Good post. Interesting comparisons.
 
That is not exactly true. For every event you can have different results just for Shin Armano as caller. So much of the results is just luck.

I am with Wheeler. In the Lp they really tried to give the win to med by giving her as much goe as possible


Yes, and they also disregarded flutz that they initially flagged to double check and went back for review only to get her away with that. Meanwhile they called both Kaetlyn Osmond & Kaori Sakamoto on their lutzes (rightfully). Not only Medvedeva received full BV for Lutz in 1st half but also absurd GOE on that +1.60. They basically never call and ding appropriately her flutz. She receives unfair points advantage on top of shoddy overscoring in general. Very harmful & unfair for Osmond and Sakamoto. In fact 2nd place can be seen as generous even though I found Zagitova's score too high in particular PCS but on the other hand it's kinda getting the taste of her own medicine. That having said ... I actually enjoyed Medvedeva's Free Skate, she was very committed to her performance and the choreography not as cringey as in the past ... she really put it all here. 2nd place felt bitter but it's still Olympic Silver Medal. But the flutz deserving e call was visible from the outer space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmwo3_PADxg
 
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Good post. Interesting comparisons.
Thanks.

It also works for the guys.

Hanyu
PCS SP 46 / -- / -- / -- / 48
PCS FS 94 / -- / -- / -- / 96

Uno
PCS SP 46 / 46 / 46 / 45 /46
PCS FS 91 / 91 / 91 / 91 / 92

Fernandez
PCS SP 46 / 47 / -- / 47 / 47
PCS FS 89 / 92 / -- / 95 / 96

Chen
PCS SP 42 / 44 / 45 / -- / 41
PCS FS 88 / 87 / 88 / -- / 87

Jin
PCS SP 41 / 40 / -- / 42 / 43
PCS FS 78 / 79 / -- / 85 / 85

Aliev
PCS SP 40 / 39 / -- / 42 / 42
PCS FS 81 / 77 / -- / 87 / 85

Kolyada
PCS SP 43 / 43 / 44 / 43 / 43
PCS FS 89 / 87 / 89 / 85 / 87

Rippon
PCS SP 41 / 44 / 43 / -- / 43
PCS FS 85 / 88 / 87 / -- / 84

Chan
PCS SP 46 / -- / -- / -- / 45
PCS FS 90 / -- / -- / -- / 91

Back in november, I was setting the club of the kings at starting 45 in the SP and 90 in the FD and the club of the wannabes starting at 42.5 and 85.
Chen was getting close until his SP last week.
 
For the pairs.

Sui / Han
PCS court 37 / 37 / 37 / -- / 37
PCS libre 76 / 76 / 75 / -- / 76

Savchenko / Massot
PCS court 36 / 36 / 36 / -- / 37
PCS libre 75 / 73 / 77 / -- / 77

Tarasova / Morosov
PCS court 36 / 36 / 36 / 35 / 37
PCS libre 74 / 73 / 71 / 74 / 74

Duhamel /Radford
PCS court 36 / 36 / 35 / -- / 35
PCS libre 71 / 72 / 70 / -- / 73

Yu / Zhang
PCS court 33 / 32 / 33 / -- / 33
PCS libre 71 / 68 / 67 / -- / 67

James / Ciprès
PCS court 34 / 34 / -- / 35 / 34
PCS libre 70 / 70 / -- / 71 / 71

Marchei / Hotarek
PCS court 32 / 31 / -- / 32 / 34
PCS libre 64 / 65 / -- / 66 / 68

Kings club at 35 in the SP and 70 in the FS.
Both Tarasova / Morosov and Duhamel / Radford were flying just above the limit in the middle of the season and James /Ciprès tried to break it, unsuccessfully.
 
Judges seem to think just landing a jump or completing an element is worthy of +2 and +3. It is not. It warrants 0 GOE. Unless the element looks like the best you've ever seen and is extraordinary, it should not be getting over +1. For all of the ladies, at least half of the elements in their programs should only be around +1.

Step sequences, which is also where you really see the skating skills, drive me crazy. More often than not, there is little interpretation of the music and the steps and turns and body movements are not even choreographed to the music, and when they are it is done/executed haphazardly. Again, the men in general have superior step sequences (well, just superior programs in general) compared to the ladies with the possible exception of Satoko, who got absolutely robbed and IMO should've won the components for both segments, with Osmond close behind (and I'm not talking about by 3+ points, just marginally, but still).
 
For ice dance, I went into the .00 because things are even more stable and precise than for the others. Scores are steady as a rock and what you see are micro-trends.

Virtue / Moir
PCS SD 38.77 / 38.64 / 38.97 / – / 39.14
PCS FD 58.70 / 57.86 / 58.67 / – / 59.05

Papadakis / Cizeron
PCS SD 38.75 / 38.94 / 39.14 / 39.09 / 39.22
PCS FD 58.56 / 59.06 / 59.24 / 59.35 / 59.37

Shibutani / Shibutani
PCS SD 37.07 / 37.88 / 37.24 / -- / 37.40
PCS FD 55.93 / 57.12 / 55.76 / – / 55.49

Hubbell / Donohue
PCS SD 36.51 / 36.01 / 36.59 / -- / 36.77
PCS FD 55.88 / 54.40 / 55.17 / --/ 56.00

Bobrova Soloviev
PCS SD 36.56 / 36.86 / – / 36.95 / 37.11
PCS FD 55.14 / 55.47 / – / 56.14 / 55.20

Cappellini / Lanotte
PCS SD 36.42 / 36.86 / 36.37 / 36.71 / 36.57
PCS FD 54.50 / 54.98 / 54.98 / 54.61 / 54.07

Weaver Poje
PCS SD 36.76 / 36.25 / -- / -- / 36.68
PCS FD 55.64 / 54.84 / -- / -- / 54.17

Gilles / Poirier
PCS SD 33.97 / 33.88 / – / -- / 34.65
PCS FD 50.67 / 50.97 / – / – / 52.17

Chock / Bates
PCS SD 36.69 / 36.48 / 36.28 / -- / 36.06
PCS FD 55.57 / 54.83 / 55.54 / -- / 53.09
 
Because PCS is the closest thing we have to rewarding "artistry" however you define it and it's the art that made most of us fans in the first place unless you really are just a numbers person who has a compulsion to add GOE and PCS and find ways to maximize TES.

Well, there ain't enough fans of the sport right now, so maybe we need to look more deeply into this.

We always like to think artistry is what pulls fans in. Not quite, but close. Starpower is the bigger element of what takes sports into mainstream and helps audiences thrive.

If artistry was the big driver, pro skating would still be hot because it's artistic af. It's not.

Pro skating is doing pretty well in Asia and Russia. It's because most of the stars in the sport are over there, not because they are more artistic. When American ladies and Canadian men were huge and the full package, skating thrived in North America after the amateur phase.

Being glass half full, I would say the sport has a huge untapped market to go after specifically by becoming more athletic and technical. Case in point - Elvis Stojko in Canada. Zero artistry for the most part, but packed audiences with straight men (and many women and younger people) who otherwise ignored the sport...and were drawn in by his rock-star brand of athleticism.

So...can't say I'm with you.
 
Personality plus musicality and art goes hand-in-hand. Stojko may not have had artistry but he had a distinct and memorable personality and that sells. He also tried to sell his brand of artistry and skating hard. It wasn't just skating-by-the-numbers and tech but he also sold his music and footwork and his brand of art where his personality shined through. I think people who think skating would be better served if if we just make it a personality-less jump fest are mistaken because the popular U.S. skaters out of this Olympics were Adam Rippon and the Shibs and it's because the audience bought into their personalities. Tessa/Scott also hit it big because of their tech and their danceability and musicality and passion. Same with Yuzuru. If Yuzu skated like Tim Goebel he wouldn't be as big as he is.
 
GoE discussions are only now just starting to creep into the narrative, as they should be. But for now, PCS is still the bigger fish to fry for a few reasons that are all interrelated.

1. History. Skating has traditionally been debated over the second mark, so that's where people look first. The world has yet to catch on to the fact that first mark can be split into two parts - base value plus a quality adjustment, which has subjectivity.

2. PCS has a much bigger impact at this point. Sadly, it's still judged and seen as one big blob of a mark in 'aristry'. See my post above. Judges are effectively judging it as one mark, as seen by the narrow band between all marks in PCS. If it really was judged separately, we would see some athletes wih 6.0 SS and 9.25 IN marks...because they are out there. TV and the way scores are read in-areana pile all 5 components into one mark. No granular discussion of "hey I don't get that SS mark...way too high".

I think we are more likely to parse a discussion on GoE. Like if we said it was too high someone would say 'on what element exactly...?' vs you never hear people saying 'which component is too high...?' if someone says PCS is too high. That never happens. Thought of as one mark.

And it's a big mark. A full PCS point means 10 pts in men's long and a bit less in ladies because of the factor. If a skater went from +2 to +3 on everything you're looking at a much smaller impact on the total mark. PCS is like 55-95 pts of your total mark depending on what event, whereas GoE is like 0-15 ish. Easier to focus on PCS

[...]

I dread TES values being lowered and GoE going to +/- 5. GoE will then because of its greater impact be brought into the debate, further highlighting not only subjectivity but the failure to mark what's actually done on the ice.

Rock2,
You know how members of the media are not allowed to take the course to learn about the IJS? Do you think the ISU should abolish that restriction and allow them to become versed in how judging actually works, so that they can then educate the viewers in a more informative and somewhat more concrete fashion rather than make very general comments?

I hear that Tanith Belbin commentates very well, but I find that Carol Lane and even the Brits on Eurosport don’t tend to highlight any specifics when they do their commentary.
 
I was looking at my last post and I just want to clarify that if I came across and promoting what I feel is a needless dichotomy of art and tech in skating, then I want to clear up that both are very important and needed to further this sport. I also don't think subjective parts, individuality, some spontaneity, and artistry have to totally die in order to keep the sport legitimate and encourage participation.
 

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