Philip Hersh - U.S., Canada FS federation presidents should step away from judging

[pani]

Just want to add some information.
Alla Victorovna Shehovtsova is well known ISU member, she worked at a lot off competitions before Sohi, she never was the head of Russian FS federation, but nobody care until Adelina won OG in Sochi.
Caron for sure were at TEB before Sochi, when she already was head of SC, but again - nobody care, so why now?
Look at PCS from judges - everyone give the best marks to there skaters, so what will change if this will not be Caron?
What will change if Didier will replace Molina? Why nobody care about Molina posted inside ISU information at his Twitter account, sitting with Gaby at arena, had a wink with Hubble? And giving his team highest marks, like everyone other's doing.
So I don't think the author care about ice dance and ice dance judging at all, this look like something again skaters (but what they did?).
And for me all this drama look really weird after WR scores PC got this season. This two are in safe place, so why Dider need all this I can't get. Maybe they try to push Americans on second place?

 

[Aussie Willy]

Absolutely. We are all human. Everyone has a different perception. Mistakes are inevitable. Didn't a judge give W&P a 0.25 for their SD IN score? (I mean, it's not THAT bad )

AW - when you judge, do you sit down with the referee afterwards to discuss whether your scores were within or outside of the corridor?

The level I judge at I am not tied to a corridor (Nationals and below). At our Nationals we do have round table discussions to go through the marks.

 

[Coquelicot14]

But by being a president how do we know they are not the most knowledgeable for the job. Replace them with someone equally powerful? Is power the point here? Knowledge and courage to judge with integrity what is put on the ice that day is the only thing that's important. You'd have to prove with facts the president is not knowledgeable and without integrity.

The point is, they are in a position of power. And this skews the balance of the judging panel.
This is not fair for other countries who has regular judges in the panel. Leave federation presidents out of judging major international competitions. This is a conflict of interest.

 

[VGThuy]

I would think that any person with an official title outside of "judge" in a federation judging a domestic/local competition may be a bigger deal because it seems charges of favoritism may seem more palpable and personal.

 

[Aussie Willy]

The point is, they are in a position of power. And this skews the balance of the judging panel.
This is not fair for other countries who has regular judges in the panel. Leave federation presidents out of judging major international competitions. This is a conflict of interest.

Any judge judging at an international competition has to come from a country. There will always be a perception that they are going to judge their own skaters favourably (or in some cases unfavourably). Whether they are a president of a federation or not doesn't make any difference. Find the evidence in the protocols before accusing of people of corruption or otherwise. Accusations based on perception are unfair and unwarranted.

 

[overedge]

Find the evidence in the protocols before accusing of people of corruption or otherwise.

And along those lines, Phil buried this about 2/3 of the way through his piece:

It should be noted that none of Caron's or Auxier's scores in those events was significantly divergent from anyone else's, and there is no suggestion of wrongdoing in the marks they gave at those events or others they have judged since becoming national federation presidents.

 

[Coquelicot14]

Any judge judging at an international competition has to come from a country. There will always be a perception that they are going to judge their own skaters favourably (or in some cases unfavourably). Whether they are a president of a federation or not doesn't make any difference. Find the evidence in the protocols before accusing of people of corruption or otherwise. Accusations based on perception are unfair and unwarranted.

Show me any posted accusations.
The fact is, a Fed president carries more weight by default.
Their primary role is the interest of their federation. It is a conflict of interest.
Should the ISU president also judge competitions? I think not. Thankfully that is not the case.

 

[Tada]

Show me any posted accusations.
The fact is, a Fed president carries more weight by default.
Their primary role is the interest of their federation. It is a conflict of interest.
Should the ISU president also judge competitions? I think not. Thankfully that is not the case.

 

[Tada]

The current ISU president is from speedskating.
Your argument thins.

 

[sap5]

And along those lines, Phil buried this about 2/3 of the way through his piece:

So why was this article even written?

 

[starrynight]

Would everyone be just as happy for the presidents of skating federations to be on judging panels if Didier Gailhaguet turned up on the ice dance judging panel at the Grand Prix Final?

Long time fans have become immune to the rather *special quirks* of the way skating is judged that bias is just presumed in a very matter of fact way to be an avoidable fact of life. You get used to it, but it doesn't look great from the outside looking in.

 

[DreamsofBliss]

So why was this article even written?

This is Phil's blog, he can write about whatever he wants. I do find it troubling the ISU is unprepared to answer questions that to anybody outside of the sport looks questionable. In an age where news travels quickly and issues gain fast momentum on social media, in an Olympic year especially, they need to be ready.

 

[skatingguy]

The judges have long been the issue at the heart of figure skating. They changed the judging system, but not the judges and know it's being proposed to make bigger changes to the sport, but they won't change the judges. If the ISU wants figure skating to look legitimate it needs to remove the ability of skating federations to select the judges for international competitions.

 

[Anyasnake]

If you people don't see where the issue is, ask yourself this question :
What if Didier was the Tech specialist at one competition ? (you'll lose it right ? Well we all know how in the past it was easy to make deals with the 6.0 system and everyone did it, he's just the dummy that got caught)

Both of these people should drop out of judges positions. It is simply not ethical, there is a conflict and I don't know how to formulate that in a simpler way.

Another thing that bugs me and will bug me a lot in the future I believe : Ponomarenko.
Having a direct family member skating and the other judging is wrong at all levels, and doesn't matter if he does not judge him, however, he shouldn't judge the direct competition... thus the rest. Especially if C/P turns seniors next season (which I believe they will especially if they win Jr Worlds). For me that might be worse than Hersh' story.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Show me any posted accusations.
The fact is, a Fed president carries more weight by default.
Their primary role is the interest of their federation. It is a conflict of interest.
Should the ISU president also judge competitions? I think not. Thankfully that is not the case.

Show me the evidence that a President of a Federation being on a judging panel has done the wrong thing.

If you want accusations, you just have to read every scandal on this forum after an event to see how people read things.

 

[Zazy]

Show me the evidence that a President of a Federation being on a judging panel has done the wrong thing.

If you want accusations, you just have to read every scandal on this forum after an event to see how people read things.

You don't need wrongdoing for there to be a conflict of interest.

In politics, people are meant to recuse themselves when their businesses, family members, etc. are involved. It's possible that everyone is supremely ethical and will not be influenced in their decision-making. But we can't know that and the appearance of a conflict taints the legitimacy of the legislative process. Optics do matter.

The judges have long been the issue at the heart of figure skating. They changed the judging system, but not the judges and know it's being proposed to make bigger changes to the sport, but they won't change the judges. If the ISU wants figure skating to look legitimate it needs to remove the ability of skating federations to select the judges for international competitions.

This. I don't think Hersh suddenly started caring about conflicts of interest - he clearly has an agenda. But if he wants to be useful for once he could advocate for this. Yes, the skating world is small and some conflicts of interest are unavoidable. And yes, judges give a lot of their time and most genuinely try to do a good job. The problem is that the system as it is currently set up rewards biased judging. When you're working for a federation, when it controls your assignments, there's going to be some kind of expectation that you advance its interests. And the federation will pick judges based primarily on its best interests, which can definitely be at odds with fairness and impartiality.

 

[sap5]

If you people don't see where the issue is, ask yourself this question :
What if Didier was the Tech specialist at one competition ? (you'll lose it right ?

I wouldn't lose it if it could be shown that all of Didier's scores were just like Caron's and Auxier's in that none of their "scores in events was significantly divergent from anyone else's, and there was no suggestion of wrongdoing in the marks they gave at those events or others they have judged since becoming national federation presidents."

Didier is a known cheater and that's the problem with him. Other people have shown that they can be both Federation President and judge with integrity, and indeed Hersh acknowledges this.

 

[sap5]

The problem is that the system as it is currently set up rewards biased judging. When you're working for a federation, when it controls your assignments, there's going to be some kind of expectation that you advance its interests. And the federation will pick judges based primarily on its best interests, which can definitely be at odds with fairness and impartiality.

Yes, this is the real problem. Hersh misses the mark. Maybe we could have a system where judges are independent from federations?

 

[Tada]

What is the purpose of Hersh writing this article? It's fascinating after a life in journalism that he becomes a blogger with no boss, no standards, no checks and balances etc. That he could write something so narrow minded and incomplete is shocking. And suspicious. He's either disgustingly ignorant, egotistical, and manipulative or emboldened by someone or some group that needs him to promote their agenda.
Figure skating is a mind blowingly difficult and complex sport, a performing art unparalleled with athleticism and aesthetic value. It has athletes, families, federations with sincere devotion to the sport that sacrifice everything and work incredibly hard, and he is nothing more than a voyeur that tries to have a voice.

 

[Vagabond]

Another thing that bugs me and will bug me a lot in the future I believe : Ponomarenko.
Having a direct family member skating and the other judging is wrong at all levels, and doesn't matter if he does not judge him, however, he shouldn't judge the direct competition... thus the rest. Especially if C/P turns seniors next season (which I believe they will especially if they win Jr Worlds). For me that might be worse than Hersh' story.

Sarah Meier's mother was and, I believe, still is, a judge at the international level. When Sarah was competing in Juniors, her mother didn't judge Junior Ladies' competitions. When Sarah competed in Seniors, her mother didn't judge Senior Ladies' competitions. The world somehow managed to survive.

 

[Aussie Willy]

You don't need wrongdoing for there to be a conflict of interest.

I don't disagree with you. But in the sport of skating where everyone knows everyone, there are conflicts of interest everywhere. I have seen it so many times and I could been accused of the same thing. I have personal friends who are adult skaters, am friendly with a number of coaches and know many skaters and parents. Should I not judge these skaters because of my involvement with them?

 

[Anyasnake]

Show me the evidence that a President of a Federation being on a judging panel has done the wrong thing.

If you want accusations, you just have to read every scandal on this forum after an event to see how people read things.

But that's the thing : I'm not talking about teams tanked 1 or 2, what about 6,7 etc ? Are we sure the job is done when let's say : Can #3 get level4 everywhere except step sequences where they level 3, which is a very good thing. They end up 6th place and beat a good russian team with better skating skills who this teams got one level2 on steps and a level3 on a lift, which they have never gotten before.
We agree that's something totally normal that can happen, yet a lot we will be bothered and asking : "just THIS time with THIS particular tech specialist..." Oh wait he's the head of SC ! No wonder why he's doing that... And we could be all wrong saying that, the ranking could be so accurate. Yet, since we're not all TS, it can be hard to differenciate levels, so nobody can ever show you evidence.
Those things are more looked at when it's team #1 vs team #2, but we tend to forget the lower ranked teams.
And I'm saying head of SC and US should drop out because : actually in the last competition Canadian TS not judging in Canada has done a great job. Seeing all the competition with a CAN tech specialist made believe that for now, they are trust-worthy EXCEPT when Weaver/Poje beat Hubbell/Donohue at Skate Canada... when head of SC was the TS.
Again I'm no tech specialist, but judging from what I saw and my 10 years of training that one was obvious. In France the TS was again CAN but she did a good job with all the teams this time.

 

[Anyasnake]

Sarah Meier's mother was, and, I believe still is, a judge at the international level. When Sarah was competing in Juniors, her mother didn't judge Junior Ladies' competitions. When Sarah competed in Seniors, her mother didn't judge Senior Ladies' competitions. The world somehow managed to survive.

My point exactly. This is what I want, him to step out from judging compeition while his son is there.

 

[zoe111]

My point exactly. This is what I want, him to step out from judging compeition while his son is there.

I agree that I think it's a conflict for him to be judging whatever discipline a family member is skating in. Not to drag another one in here but Ashley Cain's father is a pairs tech specialist I believe - that also feels like a conflict of interest. I'm sure there are a number of other examples.

 

[mackiecat]

But that's the thing : I'm not talking about teams tanked 1 or 2, what about 6,7 etc ? Are we sure the job is done when let's say : Can #3 get level4 everywhere except step sequences where they level 3, which is a very good thing. They end up 6th place and beat a good russian team with better skating skills who this teams got one level2 on steps and a level3 on a lift, which they have never gotten before.
We agree that's something totally normal that can happen, yet a lot we will be bothered and asking : "just THIS time with THIS particular tech specialist..." Oh wait he's the head of SC ! No wonder why he's doing that... And we could be all wrong saying that, the ranking could be so accurate. Yet, since we're not all TS, it can be hard to differenciate levels, so nobody can ever show you evidence.
Those things are more looked at when it's team #1 vs team #2, but we tend to forget the lower ranked teams.
And I'm saying head of SC and US should drop out because : actually in the last competition Canadian TS not judging in Canada has done a great job. Seeing all the competition with a CAN tech specialist made believe that for now, they are trust-worthy EXCEPT when Weaver/Poje beat Hubbell/Donohue at Skate Canada... when head of SC was the TS.
Again I'm no tech specialist, but judging from what I saw and my 10 years of training that one was obvious. In France the TS was again CAN but she did a good job with all the teams this time.

The TS at Skate Canada was not Caron, yes he was Canadian but the TC was American for that event. It is a 2/3 decision for tech panel Calls.. Rock Lemay is not the head of The Canadian fed

 

[Anyasnake]

The TS at Skate Canada was not Caron, yes he was Canadian but the TC was American for that event. It is a 2/3 decision for tech panel Calls.. Rock Lemay is not the head of The Canadian fed

Isn't that what is said in the article ?
(English isn't my first language so I might have misread it... sorry)

 

[William]

Show me the evidence that a President of a Federation being on a judging panel has done the wrong thing.

If you want accusations, you just have to read every scandal on this forum after an event to see how people read things.

I don't think that there is a suggestion that a federation president has judged inappropriately nor that they are dishonest or bad judges. Notwithstanding this, I do not think presidents of federations should be officiating in any capacity. It undermines the credibility of the system regardless of the individual involved. An outsider would simply not understand why its permitted. It has a clear appearance of bias. Further, there are real biases. For example, they have a lot of say over their own progress within the system as well as the progress of people close to them. By being forced to make the choice of officiating versus being an administrator, it would diminish many of these issues. No, it will not eliminate them. One comment that is frequently made is that the officials have the best knowledge of the sport so should be in administration. My personal opinion is that the involvement of officials in senior administrative positions is an issue that requires serious review and I do not think that argument has any validity. I think it creates many barriers to the progress of the sport given that change impacts the decision makers very personally and therefore they are prone to resist. However, that is a much bigger discussion than the immediate issue at hand.

 

[Dobre]

Isn't that what is said in the article ?
(English isn't my first language so I might have misread it... sorry)

No. It says the head of the Canadian Federation was a judge during the dance event at NHK Trophy.

 

[Anyasnake]

No. It says the head of the Canadian Federation was a judge during the dance event at NHK Trophy.

Okay then, either I misread it or this got mixed up in my head... thank you

 

[MacMadame]

The judges have long been the issue at the heart of figure skating. They changed the judging system, but not the judges and know it's being proposed to make bigger changes to the sport, but they won't change the judges. If the ISU wants figure skating to look legitimate it needs to remove the ability of skating federations to select the judges for international competitions.

Speedy wanted to make all the judges be ISU appointed (or possibly employees? It's been a while and the details are starting to fuzz). People had a cow. Mostly because they don't trust him (or the ISU?).