Paul and Islam: "No Matter What"

[lavenderblue]

If being more comfortable with the program, whatever it looks like, helps them execute, it's definitely a help on that end provided the panel is on board as well (and again, I'm not one who thinks judging should be based on anything but the actual work on the ice, but, well, we know how it goes). That's the one argument I could make in favor of the change sight unseen -- that though the FD was being skated better each time and growth in their skating was evident, they never seemed at ease with all of the material. So yeah, the psychological aspect could be beneficial, especially if this is accompanied by footwork more in their wheelhouse. And I hope it does turn out best.

 

[centerpt1]

i love Paul/Islam, especially their smoothness and feel for the music. I wonder if they are suffering a bit due to the loss of Scali. I can't wait to see the new FD! I hope they stay with Krylova/Camerlengo- they have made progress there.

 

[Pratfall]

centerpt1... I , too have wondered about the loss of Scali ,since he seemed to have worked closely with them. I don't think a coaching change is called for at the moment , either.

I liked the show program, and the international judges wouldn't necessarily be overly familiar with it. I'm looking forward to it. I think it holds more possibilities for emotional impact.

ETA: The Observer... I do remember the history of both C/P vs. W/P and now, of G/P as compared to both W/P and P/I. I had a long reply to your post prepared , but wished to avoid a drawn out discussion ( not to say possible flame war). I will only say that I strongly disagree with your characterization of events. There's no point in holding up marks or placements as proofs of superiority , or claiming fairness , without taking the circumstances into account. (Sometimes the circumstances had to do with where other couples were placed, fairly or unfairly.)

 

[skatingfan04]

I like this idea for them. The show program was really something special. It was something that they obviously connected with emotionally, and it showcased their particular set of skills beautifully. Even if they pull heavily from the choreo of the show program, it's not something that anyone other than their biggest fans will really be familiar with, so I'm not worried on that front. I hope (and suspect) that it will be a more natural fit than the FD they've been using, which they have never really looked comfortable with. Confidence can make a world of difference, especially in P/I's case.

Even if this backfires, I'm glad that they just didn't sit back and do nothing about the bad results they were getting this season. They took a really gutsy step to try and improve. Even if it fails, it's better than watching them take it sitting down.

 

[MarieM]

in ice dance, changing FD isn't a good thing.

 

[skatingfan04]

Out of curiosity, MarieM, what makes you think that? I can't think of many cases where it has been attempted at this point in the season, so I honestly find myself unable to come up with an opinion on the matter as of yet (though referring specifically to P/I this season I think and hope it may be a good move). Aside from the obvious risk of the program being unrefined and undertrained, are there any specific objections you have?

Since this is a rather unusual thing they've done, I'd love to hear your (and everyone's) thoughts on the matter.

 

[ohashibiles]

But I don't think they are ready to contend for the World podium yet as someone else above said. I think they need another year, maybe two, before they are ready for a World medal.

While I wouldn't say there is no chance I wouldn't think it is likely G&P are future world medalists. Teams like Papadakis & Cizeron and Illnyk & Zhiganshin will be superior to them comfortably in coming years IMO. P&C are younger and already passed them. I&Z are totally new and already about equal. Then older teams like Weaver & Poje, Chock & Bates, and maybe Bobrova & Soloviev (and yes I am fully aware the future of B&S is questionable at this point, hence the maybe for them) will be around this whole quad in all likelihood, and will be always above them too. Then the juniors coming up, and who knows who else by the time the next quad rolls around and the latter group of teams are likely gone.

They might win a semi flukish bronze one year (probably the next quad, not this one) ala the Shibutanis though.

 

[ohashibiles]

While I really like Paul & Islam I am worried about them even keeping 3rd place and making worlds. Forget 2nd place, that ship sailed early this season. They are almost as unlikely to beat Gilles & Poirier for 2nd at Canadians as G&P are to beat W&P for the title.

 

[Andora]

in ice dance, changing FD isn't a good thing.

True, but it's also not the worst thing to do when your current FD isn't working. Belbin & Agosto made a move in 2007 switching from "That's Entertainment" to Amelie and it seemed to stop the bleeding for that season.

 

[blancanieves]

I wonder if they are suffering a bit due to the loss of Scali.

Probably not. Aldridge/Eaton went to Canton with Scali and they're not fairing particularly well.

I am curious about who will be credited with the new FD choreography though. Dubreuil/Lauzon choreographed their original FD so I wonder if they reworked things with them, or went back to Pasquale/Anjelika.

 

[kwanoverrated]

Scali is probably not allowed to do hardly anything being under diva Zoueva. I am sure he had far more influence even as the #3 person with Camerlengo and Krylova than he does as the #2 under Zoueva. Also Camelengo and Krylova probably delegated a lot of the non star teams (such as Paul & Islam) predominantly to Scali anyway.

 

[lavenderblue]

I have to admit I'm unclear about when the Scali-as-mentor story began, because I know he actually did choreography for A/E, but unless there is some insider info nothing public has ever given the impression that Krylova and Camerlengo haven't been the primary drivers for P/I, just as with H/D -- Scali didn't even accompany P/I to more than one event last season, which was Nebelhorn with Krylova; his role at the Olympics seemed to be for O'Brien/Merriman and as general DSC support. I don't think K&C were viewing a team that had a real shot at the Olympics as one of their "non star teams" when their stable as of the 2013-14 season consisted of W/P, H/D, P/I, H/B, and A/E (along with O/M and a few other clearly lower-ranked or younger level teams). To my view, W/P were the leaders and P/I and H/D in pretty equivalent positions in terms of competitive goals, and there'd be very little good reason to turn either over to a secondary coach.

On the new choreographers, I'm wondering if that Barrie article crediting Kelly Johnson was referring to an attempt to rework the existing dance, or if they were being coy about the new program (or the former, but then worked with her again later on). Otherwise I'd lean towards K&C -- it would be the most convenient route.

 

[kwanoverrated]

Actually you are right. For some reason I thought Krylova & Camerlengo had more top teams than they did. It seems odd a team like Paul & Islam would have ever recently been their 2nd best given the hype of that program, but I guess they at one point arguably were.

 

[Pratfall]

I think the Scali thing may come from an interview he gave regarding P/I (I think in the W&E year) ... where he complimented their ability and promise, and said that in the view of the coaching staff at DSC, P/I had as yet only reached ,maybe 50% of their potential. I believe (IIRC) the same article said he had been working closely with them (but not that he,alone, had been working with them.)

But I don't think P/I were ever clearly considered K&C's #2 team , there was H/D coming on the scene at about the same time, and don't forget the time P/B spent with them.

 

[lavenderblue]

I think the Scali thing may come from an interview he gave regarding P/I (I think in the W&E year) ... where he complimented their ability and promise, and said that in the view of the coaching staff at DSC, P/I had as yet only reached ,maybe 50% of their potential. I believe (IIRC) the same article said he had been working closely with them (but not that he,alone, had been working with them.)

It was this article from the 2012 U.S. International Figure Skating Classic, in which he's quoted because he was the one who accompanied them to that competition:

Massimo Scali, who with Camerlengo, Anjelika Krylova, Natalia Deller and Liz Punsalan coaches the team in Detroit, said they have reached only half of their potential.

"I think they have the ability to represent any kind of music, from dramatic to romantic to fun," he said. "This free dance is a little bit of everything; it has romance and fun and passion."

But then there was an IFS article at the end of that season in which Camerlengo was the one quoted on their strengths and promise and the moves they were making as they continued to develop, while it's Krylova who's always talked about in other coverage -- shouting at them when they start to doubt themselves, for example. All to say that it seems the share's been pretty equitable, as far as which coaches have openly shown their investment.

 

[puglover]

I don't remember ever reading where the Canadian judges and officials at the training camp in September have advised a skater or team to totally scrap a program but I do believe the USFA has done it and as I recall they did it to Davis and White which resulted in DF. I wish this had happened way back in the early fall.

 

[skatingfan04]

I don't remember ever reading where the Canadian judges and officials at the training camp in September have advised a skater or team to totally scrap a program but I do believe the USFA has done it and as I recall they did it to Davis and White which resulted in DF. I wish this had happened way back in the early fall.

Same here. That being said, I'll take what I can get after the rough grand prix season for them. If the change gives them a chance to feel more comfortable going into nationals, I'm glad they're doing it.

As for their coaching situation, I've always gotten the impression that they are very much engaged with Carmelengo and Krylova, and I highly doubt they're hurting because of Scali's departure. Yeah, Scali accompanied them to a couple of really small events in the early days of their coaching change, but K & C have always been at the big ones with them. Krylova actually went to the Autumn Classic with them in October, which was harly a major event. Both have spoken about their skills before, and it has always seemed like they get along. K & C have looked absolutely murderous in the kiss and cry when P/I have been getting their scores this season. I think they're invested.

 

[judgejudy27]

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. I agree with you that Skate Canada has given Paul Poirier and his 2 partners a boost at times, but for the most part it has usually been fairly marked.

First, in terms of Crone/Poirier vs. Weaver/Poje, it was usually the case that C&P were better than W&P internationally. It wasn't as if C&P got high marks at home but low marks internationally. They almost always beat W&P internationally. In those days C&P had skated together since the beginning, whereas Kaitlyn & Andrew got together much later. Andrew had another partner in Canada before Kaitlyn, and when she came along she was not as experienced. The reason there was more focus on C&P right into the final year of that rivalry is because it was only at the end that W&P started skating consistently and getting higher marks internationally. Up until very late, it had been C&P that had won the most medals on the Grand Prix and gotten onto the GPF podium. As Kaitlyn became a stronger skater and W&P became more consistent, they closed the gap and overtook C&P at 2011 Worlds.

Second, I agree that Gilles/Poirier were overmarked at their first Nationals together. I think that's because the judges were giving them marks that were more suited to the marks that C&P would have gotten. They were hoping that Piper could just step into Vanessa's place even though she didn't have the experience level to do so at that point. But in terms of the G&P rivalry with P&I, it happens to be that G&P have always gotten higher marks than P&I in the past (except for at 2014 Nationals). It's not as if G&P only get good marks in Canada, but bomb internationally. They've done well at most of their international events (except for 2013 Worlds). And after losing to P&I at 2014 Nationals, G&P won a silver at 4 Continents & placed 8th at Worlds -- those weren't Canadian competitions. Those were international events. And then this season G&P won 2 silvers and made it to the GPF. But I don't think they are ready to contend for the World podium yet as someone else above said. I think they need another year, maybe two, before they are ready for a World medal.

Not to take this thread too far off topic but your analysis is not entirely accurate and far too simplistic. Weaver & Poje and Crone & Poirier did not even compete internationally vs each other much. C&P were gifted incredibly easy assignments at Skate Canada both in 2008-2009 and 2010-2011 season, carefully crafted by Skate Canada, to help boost them, so naturally they would have better results. In terms of scores they were clearly ahead in 2008-2009 but often behind or no better in 2009-2010 and 2010-2011. In 2010 C&P controversially beat W&P for the 2nd Olympic spot after a fall at Canadians, and proceded to place 14th at the Olympics with clean skates. W&P probably would have fared better. In 2011 C&P again controversially beat W&P at Canadians after a big stumble. At 4CC's W&P had a huge fall that dropped them from a likely 2nd place finish (they were 3rd but V&M WD before their skate) to 4th, and still just barely lost to a perfect C&P, so obviously would have very easily beaten C&P without the fall. This incidentally probably also cost them the world bronze to the Shibutanis, as the Shibutanis ended up 2nd here after V&M's WD and W&P's fall, raising their stock. This a mere weeks after Canadians and a clean W&P losing to flawed C&P based on some jacked up PCS for C&P. At worlds they were 5th and 10th. While C&P did (only thanks to W&P's huge fall at 4CCs) beat W&P 2 of 3 meetings internationally in 2010-2011, Canadians is the only time they came ahead in the SD, crucial in their narrow win at Canadians. All acknowledged at the time W&P had a much better OD that season, but at Canadians, this did not matter of course.

Now onto Gilles & Poirier vs Paul & Islam, the more appropriate comparision for this thread. Again G&P and P&I did not compete head to head much internationally until recently. In 2011-2012 P&I did have a tough season. In 2012-2013 P&I had comparable or better scores, but at Canadians even their perfect SD with all level 4s was ridiculously scored behind G&P's sloppy skate. P&I blew it with a fall in the FD anyway, but the writing was already on the wall. G&P placed a lowly 18th at worlds. Paul & Islam probably would have fared better. Gilles & Poirier's scores at Canadians in both 2012 and 2013 showed a much larger jump from their international scores than any other team including Virtue & Moir and Weaver & Poje, and far more than Paul & Islam. 2014 was the lone exception ever thus far to this, with scoring more on par with international scoring for once.

 

[ichiro]

I think in the past C/P were groomed to be the next darlings of Skate Canada. However looking back I don't disagree with their marks as their actual skating skills were far superior to that of W/P (at that time). I stumbled upon a few of C/P's older skates and am very impressed with the difficulty of their dances. Now with G/P I can see the same huge progressive jump in their scores without the technical prowess of other mid-top teams. I do give G/P credit for their interesting and well performed programs though.

I've been pulling for P/I for the longest time. They've caused me so much stress. I'm it's tough to see such a technically strong team year in and year out come out with programs aren't memorable. I know they are somewhat subdued performers. But I did love last years F/D program. Watching it live at nationals I was glued to them and their performance. Let's hope they can't keep ground and remain in third, and just keep on pushing it. I can't wait to see how they retool their new FD.

 

[kwanoverrated]

I dont know if there is a Gilles & Poirier so i dont know where else to say this but I honestly have no idea why Paul & Vanessa split. I know they came a very dissapointing 10th at the 2011 worlds. Their meteroic rise was probably over. Still it is hard to believe they wouldnt be even higher up today than Gilles & Poirier currently are with all the retirements that have taken place. Vanessa is a much stronger skater than Piper, so it seems not attaining a higher placement is impossible. They probably would have eventually won a world medal sometime in 2015-2022, maybe more than once, which I doubt Gilles & Poirier will ever achieve.

I am really hoping the new FD of Paul & Islam boosts them up. I would like to see a program that suits them and also with that it makes them perform the technical elements better than they have so far this year too. Up to now I was very worried about them even keeping 3rd at Canadians. I still am a bit, but hope to see them take 3rd comfortably and close the gap on G&P. I dont think believing they could beat G&P for 2nd is realistic right now, just to close the gap on them if possible. I will be dissapointed if they arent atleast closer to G&P than G&P are to W&P in points (which will be a large gap already).

 

[rvi5]

I dont know if there is a Gilles & Poirier so i dont know where else to say this but I honestly have no idea why Paul & Vanessa split. I know they came a very dissapointing 10th at the 2011 worlds. Their meteroic rise was probably over. Still it is hard to believe they wouldnt be even higher up today than Gilles & Poirier currently are with all the retirements that have taken place. Vanessa is a much stronger skater than Piper, so it seems not attaining a higher placement is impossible. They probably would have eventually won a world medal sometime in 2015-2022, maybe more than once, which I doubt Gilles & Poirier will ever achieve...

Perhaps it was a combinations of things, including a personality clash? Paul seems to like being a wild & crazy guy at times, which he can be with Piper (doing comical routines like the workout exhibition program). Vanessa always seemed to be more serious. She would also frequently be criticized on these boards for her posture. Perhaps with the drop in position at 2011 Worlds, Paul felt it was his opportunity to find a partner who was more similar to himself, or what he wanted to be. It would be harder to have made that decision while they were still rising in success together.

...Just making wild guesses, we will likely never know.

 

[judgejudy27]

I don't think Crone & Poirier today would be as high today as Gilles & Poirier are. Gilles & Poirier almost beat the Shibutanis at the GPF. C&P were 10th at 2011 worlds vs 3rd for the Shibutanis. Paul jumped off the sinking ship since that is what C&P were at that point. They likely would have continued to drop, but still would probably have edged Paul & Islam for Sochi, which Gilles & Poirier did not, so thank goodness for that.

 

[puglover]

C&P's last year together started out with promise with the interesting "Eleanor Rigby" program from Christopher Dean but for some reason they seemed to have more and more problems as the season continued. I wondered when they split up shortly after if the issues with the skating were due to internal problems with the partnership. Paul seems happy with Piper, in Ontario and with Carol Lane and group.

 

[mirage]

I don't think Crone & Poirier today would be as high today as Gilles & Poirier are. Gilles & Poirier almost beat the Shibutanis at the GPF. C&P were 10th at 2011 worlds vs 3rd for the Shibutanis. Paul jumped off the sinking ship since that is what C&P were at that point. They likely would have continued to drop, but still would probably have edged Paul & Islam for Sochi, which Gilles & Poirier did not, so thank goodness for that.

You must be joking or your hate for C&P clouds your "judge"ment. You are a huge W&P fan which is great, I like them too, but seemingly you can't get past the fact that at the time C&P actually were stronger and you find every opportunity to hate on C&P, I guess, for beating W&P.

Seriously, C&P had a bad competition, that is it. It would not have been the end of their careers as much as you would like to think. They were definitely not a sinking ship from a skating viewpoint. I would think if they had had some "caring" individuals to help work out whatever their issues were (the way Marina found help for V&M) they could have gotten past that. The pretty accurate scuttlebutt at the arena was that Paul/Carol had already teamed him up with Piper unbeknownst to Vanessa. I am sure that affected his total lack of engagement in their skating at the Worlds competition.

Shibutani's 3rd was as much a result based on other's mistakes and really, was a fluke for them. Shibs should have been around 7-8. And now, it is not fair to them to be compared to that result and be considered has-beens (current year coaching aside).

I thought I remembered you saying some time back, that you are a judge, if not I apologize for the mistake. If so, I am sure you would be very aware of the way things work with being a country's number 1 or 2 or for that matter considering which countries are participating in the Olympic event. WIthout seeing any of the skates, it was easy to see, the very best C&P could have hoped for was 12th (by the way their exact placing in the free dance). S&B took 12th. C&P and S&B were always competitive with each other, with S&P usually edging out C&P. At 14th, C&P were right about where they were expected to be, and they would have been higher if they had not been 17th in the short. If you take a look at the results, B&S (15th) were right behind C&P. Before this year's health issues took them out, they were podium favorites and arguably World favorites. How come C&P were a "sinking ship" and yet B&S could work their way up to potentially World #1.

I really think you need to take off your hate glasses. If C&P had stayed together in a positive way, they would be far ahead of where G&P are today. G&P do not have the competition or the number of teams "ahead" of them that C&P/S&B/B&S/ and W&P had ahead of them in 2010. If they had they would be lower down on the list. It is too bad C&P split, the rivalry with W&P would have been fun to watch with each team pushing the other.

 

[judgejudy27]

You are quite wrong. I liked Crone & Poirier, not uber liked, but I cheered for them to do well. One doesn't have to dislike someone to see the obvious federation favortism they got at times (which Gilles & Poirier also now get). I far prefer them to Gilles & Poirier so I don't like saying they would likely be lower than Gilles & Poirier today but it is likely reality given the trajectory of Crone & Poirier at their time of parting. Vanessa being better technically than Piper (which yes she clearly was, and by a good margin) does not automatically mean it will make for the better team long run. The chemistry and look a team has together, how they work together both as performers and technicians, are all factors too. Piper also is a much better individual performer than Vanessa, and her posture is better.

I also did not dispute they were better than Weaver & Poje back then. I just said they weren't better at every competition, like the results came out. You talk about the rivalry of the two teams. There should have been a rivalry between the two teams, but the judges (Canadian judges atleast) made sure there was none. I also was not even a W&P fan back then, and probably preferred C&P from a fan perspective, although wasn't a large fan of either, and didn't dislike either. I only begun to be a W&P fan in early 2012.

The only person that made a mistake at the 2011 worlds is Pechelat & Bourzat so the Shibutanis should have finished 3rd rather than 4th. Still would be way higher than Crone & Poirier's 10th and Gilles & Poirier are neck and neck with those same Shibutanis today. Draw your own conclusions. The Shibutanis also beat Crone & Poirier by a good margin at 4CCs just before worlds, where W&P would have split them without their fall, so it is not like worlds was a fluke result to how the two teams were comparing at that stage.

Given that you were so offended at people saying Sale & Pelletier were overmarked often, and there was some serious behind scenes politics to their rise to total invincibility by 2001 (as obvious as children liking cookies), it seems unlikely you are capable of being objective on any Canadian skater anyhow.

 

[mirage]

You are quite wrong. I liked Crone & Poirier, not uber liked, but I cheered for them to do well. One doesn't have to dislike someone to see the obvious federation favortism they got at times (which Gilles & Poirier also now get). I far prefer them to Gilles & Poirier so I don't like saying they would likely be lower than Gilles & Poirier today but it is likely reality given the trajectory of Crone & Poirier at their time of parting. Vanessa being better technically than Piper (which yes she clearly was, and by a good margin) does not automatically mean it will make for the better team long run. The chemistry and look a team has together, how they work together both as performers and technicians, are all factors too. Piper also is a much better individual performer than Vanessa, and her posture is better.

I also did not dispute they were better than Weaver & Poje back then. I just said they weren't better at every competition, like the results came out. You talk about the rivalry of the two teams. There should have been a rivalry between the two teams, but the judges (Canadian judges atleast) made sure there was none. I also was not even a W&P fan back then, and probably preferred C&P from a fan perspective, although wasn't a large fan of either, and didn't dislike either. I only begun to be a W&P fan in early 2012.

The only person that made a mistake at the 2011 worlds is Pechelat & Bourzat so the Shibutanis should have finished 3rd rather than 4th. Still would be way higher than Crone & Poirier's 10th and Gilles & Poirier are neck and neck with those same Shibutanis today. Draw your own conclusions. The Shibutanis also beat Crone & Poirier by a good margin at 4CCs just before worlds, where W&P would have split them without their fall, so it is not like worlds was a fluke result to how the two teams were comparing at that stage.

Given that you were so offended at people saying Sale & Pelletier were overmarked often, and there was some serious behind scenes politics to their rise to total invincibility by 2001 (as obvious as children liking cookies), it seems unlikely you are capable of being objective on any Canadian skater anyhow.

I am not sure why you are mentioning Sale and Pelletier since I have never said anything about them and have no idea if they were overmarked or not.

I did mention S & B but was referring to Samuelson and Bates and again have never said anything about overmarking.

Clearly Crone and Poirier had to address some issues and make changes. If they had they would have been further ahead of where G&P are. I don't think you can write teams off because they flailed for awhile. W&P flailed and look where they are now. Other teams as well.

All the comments on this board indicate that Shibs are flailing and in serious need of a coaching change. G&P being close to them then is only indicative of current situation not of what would be if Shibs made the changes thought to be required. The general consensus is that Shibs would once again be contenders if they changed coaches and had better programs whereas the jury is out on G&P being serious contenders regardless of where they are now.

I have no doubt that G&P will continue rising, whether from overmarking, federation push and favoritism, Lane's politicking, or very clever packaging of programs hiding and disguising weaknesses. But regardless C&P were and would still be a better team than G&P.

 

[skatingfan04]

The site for Nationals is now live, complete with live streamining and a surprisingly good live updates page. The senior dance event won't be live streamed, but the practices taking place in the K-Rock Center this week will be, so keep an eye out!

http://www.skatecanada.ca/event/2015-canadian-tire-national-skating-championships/

 

[puglover]

Thanks for the info.

 

[Pratfall]

I was just looking at the TSN website and in a pre-championship article by Tracey Wilson, she says P/I's new program is choregraphed by JEFFREY BUTTLE .. Did we know that already ?..(I didn't)

(I dare to hope..) and I'll be up bright and early (my time) tomorrow to see if the dance practice will be streamed.

 

[lavenderblue]

It is info new to that article! Well, they had some time together during HFOI, and then I'd seen on Twitter that Jeff was at Mariposa at one point in December, if that's relevant... It would certainly make sense to call in the original exhibition's choreographer to transform it, and I love the thought of them receiving his first ice dance program, period, and then his first competitive ice dance program.

I very much hope they skate their FD at the streamed practice -- don't leave us waiting until it's actually being competed!