Paul and Islam: "No Matter What"

[Pratfall]

Perhaps they went to D&L because of the success they had with their last D&L choreographed program (Casablanca). However, that idea now seems to be a mistake because D&L are giving the better material to the teams that actually train under them (P&C, H&D, P&O).

It's no secret that I never liked either of these programs .. And I think it was a major tactical error to return to what must have been seen as old strengths (Casablanca and for that matter the SD music)

I don't know who's at fault, but it's always seemed a no-brainer to me, that with the world state of Ice dancing in flux, this was the time to make some sort of bold statement with your programs. The teams Rafter mentions have done that.

But not knowing what caused these decisions, I think it may be premature to think of a coaching change.

ETA: Just on a purely Canadian side note , I don't like either of G/P's programs any better, and can't feel that when they get to World's their material will be that well received , though they'll continue to be overrated at home .. so for me, it's like a doubly costly mistake for P/I.

ETA again: (sorry) W/P only got the full credit they deserved at home when they simply could no longer be denied and there still was resistance to the very end.

 

[Jammers]

To me P/I come off a bit like V/M lite but with lesser skills. They also are rather vanilla on the ice and don't show much personality. Whatever one may think of Scott Moir he has personality on the ice and has a commanding presence on the ice as all the good male Ice Dancers do.

 

[kwanoverrated]

Yeah I agree. It is pretty hard to be a poorer version of Virtue & Moir as even their style wouldn't have gotten them much success had their skills not just been so incredible they were impossible to deny. Mitchell especialy seems to be packaged as if he is the new Scott Moir and that is a good mistake. The last thing he wants is to be compared to Scott Moir in anyway, as he can never live up to that.

 

[kwanoverrated]

ETA: Just on a purely Canadian side note , I don't like either of G/P's programs any better, and can't feel that when they get to World's their material will be that well received , though they'll continue to be overrated at home .. so for me, it's like a doubly costly mistake for P/I.

ETA again: (sorry) W/P only got the full credit they deserved at home when they simply could no longer be denied and there still was resistance to the very end.

I agree on the W/P part especialy. I bet even today the CSA is itching to push G/P above them if given half a chance, but as long as W/P keep scoring much higher internationally the chance isn't there.

G/P are quite overrated as Paul Poirier and his various partners have been since day 1, and I feel sorry for the others who have to deal with that kind of favoritism. If you slip for a moment Paul Poirier & whoever will be leapfrogged over you, probably for good, as poor Paul & Islam already are now learning after what has happened since the Autumn Classic.

 

[Jammers]

G/P have been overrated from the time they got together. She's just not in the same league as the top Ice Dancing Ladies and probably will never be. They probably shouldn't even have beaten H/D at TEB.

 

[Emdee]

Well many teams have been overrated. This year Piper is much improved.
Weaver played catch up for a few years as well.

 

[Pratfall]

Well many teams have been overrated. This year Piper is much improved.
Weaver played catch up for a few years as well.

So , should people say , "Oh well , that's alright, then" ?????? .. I don't think so.

This is P/I's thread, so the following may seem to go somewhat OT. However , I wouldn't want to intrude on G/P's cheer thread to make the following points , so I hope you'll all indulge me. When W/P first got together Kaitlyn did have to play catch up with Andrew , but the disparity between the two of them at the time, was not as great as the disparity between Paul and Piper when they got together. Piper has improved , but she hasn't caught up yet ... and the teams they're in competition with have improved in many ways as well.

At their very first Canadian Nationals G/P were given embarrassingly high marks ,and though that could not continue , they do continue to be given the maximum for what they do nationally, a situation their near competitors do not enjoy ( and I don't just mean P/I ).This has to at least seep into the awareness of international judges.. even if we don't think they're being touted (which I wouldn't bet against.)

For me a credible argument for G/P being rated as highly as they are cannot be made while their very comparable national team mates are being underrated. Yes , couples can have on and off days at different times, they can make good or bad choices in their programs ... but we're seeing an unwarranted gap in the credit they're being given for what they do on the ice, which tells me that politics must also be playing a part.

G/P and P/I have different improvements to make, but I think P/I are at least as good individually, weighing their different pluses and minuses and superior in their ability to move as a couple. They're not really much slower, that I can see, and they're much neater.

While I wish P/I had time to make needed changes before Canadians, I don't know if it's possible. If not, I hope the search is beginning now for breakout material for next year.

 

[Emdee]

I totally agree that when Paul and Piper teamed up she was well below par.

Unlike them Paul and Islams joining together appeared seamless. They were both in tune with each other and it showed. Last year I was very impressed to see them live three times, at Thornhill, at Skate Canada And then at Nats. They seemed to have blossomed under KC. The question one has to ask is what is holding the progress back this year. To me they appear to lack confidence. They come across very tentative. Added to that I don't think they are making their levels. Maybe it's the FD as well.

Yes, I am a big Paul Poirier fan ( not necessarily Piper). One reason is that he is from my small Community of Unionville. However, there are some things about PI that I absolutely adore.

 

[Pratfall]

To my eyes, P/I appeared tentative at the AC , but not really after that. They've looked understandably apprehensive in the KnC , but not while performing. E.g., I detected no noticeable hesitancy or struggle in any of their elements. At CoC, I thought they definitely should have made it into the second group, and worry that the fact that they didn't may have established a precedent in the minds of judges. Obviously, they aren't making all their levels , but I think it's questionable whether they should have made more of them.

Then the general problem with the way PCS are being awarded ( across all disciplines) allows for questionable or borderline technical assessments to be exaggerated , either to the positive or the negative for any given couple. ( I don't know if this can be fully resolved because a degree of subjectivity is inevitable , but it definitely needs to be improved upon.) For P/I this year, it's definitely worked to negative effect.... as have their programs .

As I've said, I think there are problems with both dances , less so with the SD. Early on, I worried about the SD not being a clear paso , because of timing issues .. but, as it turns out, I don't think timing has been a problem in their marks. Still, I feel the music choice was a miscue and that a true paso , with a more "martial" feel would have helped them to bring more dominance and tension to their performance... and I think the FD music does nothing to really move or excite people.

Emdee, I think it's perfectly fine for any of us to be a fan of any skater , or couple .. and I do take you at your word when you say that there are things about P/I that you adore. Coming from the west coast, I follow the career of O/W with much interest, fully recognising that there was a disparity in their abilities when they got together, and taking satisfaction in the progress they've made (very noticeable this year). But I also recognise that they are in close contention with a number of other couples.

My problem is that Skate Canada should not be such obvious Paul Poirier fans... which I think they have been to the point of ignoring the oft-repeated truth that it takes two skaters to make a dance couple, but a good dance couple should equal more than the sum of its parts... ignoring that the more proficient partner is necessarily limited by their "lesser half". Skate Canada should be, and be seen to be impartial in how they treat those couples who are at a comparable level, and they have been anything but.

This goes back to the days of C/P and continues to the present, with perhaps the most egregious example being in G/P's Canadians debut - with the constant drumbeat for C/P in their last year together coming close. ( That year, judging by quotes from SC, you would hardly have known W/P existed until their big breakout at Worlds) .

This means that like W/P before them, P/I (or any other Canadian couple, for that matter) will have to be better in order to be considered equal and considerably better in order to rise above. Unfair though this may be, I think P/I are capable of doing it, but they'll need to be very astute in their choice of programs.

From P/I's end of things this year, there may be contributing factors behind the scenes that we have no way of knowing. The possibility of Mitch having a concussion close to the AC has been mentioned (?)... I have to say that I was privately worried for them when Massimo Scali moved over to Zueva, because I think he had been working closely with them. (?) If a bit of a re-shuffle consequently occurred at DSC, they may have slipped through the cracks a bit.. we may never know. We can only wait to see what develops.

 

[Emdee]

Pratfall, you make several very valuable points. I just looked at several Pasos a few minutes ago and I agree that the music doesn't allow them to project more. Alexandra is always exquisite both in looks and her dancing but Mitch has underwhelmed me in the past. However, looking at the video from TEB I see Mitch really bringing out that Paso feel and I found my eyes drawn to him more than ever.

Regarding those WP vs CP days....I think those were early days for Weaver while CP were well matched. I remember seeing CP live at a Margaret Garrison event with on ice seats at close quarters their deep edges and use of the blade were incredible. I had liked them but never fully understood what the judges saw in them before that day.

We in Canada have some wonderful ice dancers and a number of them clustered in quality. I like PO as well especially their free.

 

[iggie]

Sorry, misunderstood something

 

[puglover]

I think there are so many wonderful dance teams now that it is a challenge to stand out and get noticed. They are not the only former World Junior medalists that are having their struggles. I feel G/P have gotten attention on the world stage by their material - especially last year. I wish P/I and their team could find some way to set them apart. Sometimes great skating doesn't seem to be enough and then not getting the marks erodes confidence and makes it hard to really sell it.

 

[skatingfan04]

Some great discussion here

I'm a bit out of the loop, but I'll try to weight in on a couple of things. I'm glad some of you mentioned how Mitch seems to really stand out in the Paso. I noticed it right off the bat, and I think it's perfect. Mitch is the matador, Alex is the cape. He should be standing out as sharp and fierce, and she should be elegant and flowy and rhythmical. I think they've nailed this right on the head. I actually love the music and the choreo of that SD as well. The Paso is about passion, and the over the top gestures and face pulling that a lot of teams are doing feel like an attempt to ram 'ferocity' down the audience's throats rather than a legitimate attempt to interpret the style correctly. P/I have a softer sell, and they really use their hands and feet to hilight the rhythmical inflections. They actually appear to be feeling the rhythm as opposed to throwing their arms around sharply trying to look fierce. Plus, they're selling it with their faces without going over board. They look passionate as opposed to comical, which I really, really love. Plus, this style seems to fit Mitch really, really well.

It's no secret that I'm less than thrilled by the FD. It's beneath them. That being said, I really haven't found them to appear tentative this season (not in the SD or the FD), with the obvious exception of the ACI FD. They don't have that look of tension that they used to have years ago. It looks more like they're not totally comfortable with the FD, which makes sense since it's not their usual style of skating (I'm referring to the way the steps and movements have been arranged, not the actual genre of the music). They've sold it well (very well at CoC, less so at TEB), but you can just see that it doesn't really fit. I hope they have enough time between now and Canadians to make the program their own. I don't think it's even going to be a masterpiece, but if they rearrange some of the footwork and transitions it may end up looking more like the type of program they usually skate.

As for their levels, I'm sure they're not making all of them. How many teams are at this point in the season? Plus, I think that the way the footwork sequences in the FD have been designed has eliminated some of the steps that were probably helping them get those levels in the past. That being said, the tech panels have been exceedingly harsh with them. There have been a lot of levels awarded to other teams that have appeared questionable, but P/I don't ever seem to be the beneficiaries of that type of thing. There appears to be something of a double standard in the way that P/I and several other teams are being assessed when compared to the judges favourites. I have a bigger issue with the PCS and GOE's, which have made next to no sense, and have accounted for a much bigger portion of their score deficiencies.

All that aside, the Holiday Festival on Ice is this weekend! I'll try and post any photos/videos I find.

 

[skatingfan04]

http://instagram.com/p/wRMwtYOLEF/

 

[skatingfan04]

Some great photos from HFOI here!

http://www.sootoday.com/content/arts/photos.asp?c=82660

 

[Pratfall]

Great photos.. Alex is exquisite.

 

[skatingfan04]

Just dropping by to wish everyone who celebrates a very happy holidays!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTwBrhG35so

(Which mean's nationals are right around the corner!)

 

[Sylvia]

They were interviewed before Christmas (article published today): http://www.simcoe.com/news-story/52...-olympic-ice-dancers-battling-to-stay-on-top/

In an effort to stay on top, they were back home to re-choreograph their free dance, Islam said.

“Our other dance was not getting the traction we had hoped it would with the international crowd,” he added.

Mariposa School of Skating coach Kelly Johnson worked with the pair as Islam’s dad, David, watched.

But with less than a month until the Canadian Tire National Skating Championships — happening in Kingston in mid-January — Islam said they weren’t starting the whole routine from scratch.

“We’re using the same elements, like lifts and footwork. We just have new transitions needed to fill in around it,” Islam said.

Team DSC dance group photo via Kaitlin Hawayek's Instagram: http://instagram.com/p/xQgXDlCmpZ/

 

[skatingfan04]

So glad to hear this! Kelly Johnson has given them wonderful material in the past, and I have every confidence in her ability to improve the program. Her choreography (for P/I as well as many of the younger Mariposa dancers) tends to be both technically complex and stylistically sophisticated, and I think this FD would benefit from a dosage of both. Of course, I don't expect massive changes, but I do hope to see P/I come out with a version of this program that is a more natural fit for them. Can't wait for nationals!

 

[Marta24]

I`m also glad that P/I are working with Kelly Johnson. I think she also worked with Weaver & Poje on one of their FDs in the past.
I wonder if they are going to change the music, though or if the style of the FD will be kept.

 

[skatingfan04]

I doubt the music will change. I don't thing they've had a long enough period of time to allow for that significant of an alteration. I suspect the main difference will be in the transitions.

Also, P/I posted a stunning photo to their Facebook page, apparently from the national team camp photoshoots that took place in September. It really shows off their strength and elegant lines!

https://www.facebook.com/AlexandraP...5145439262397/621507697959501/?type=1&theaterhttps://www.facebook.com/AlexandraP...5145439262397/621507697959501/?type=1&theater

 

[Pratfall]

Delighted to hear this ! Wishing there was time to change the music, but hoping for the best. Yes, I've liked Kelly Johnson's work in the past, too. ... I've been thinking some fairly uncharitable things about D/L (who I normally support)..

If this was draw poker... here's hoping they improve their hand.... and that the whole game isn't rigged. ( No, I don't play, but my father did.)

 

[The Observer]

My problem is that Skate Canada should not be such obvious Paul Poirier fans... which I think they have been to the point of ignoring the oft-repeated truth that it takes two skaters to make a dance couple, but a good dance couple should equal more than the sum of its parts... ignoring that the more proficient partner is necessarily limited by their "lesser half". Skate Canada should be, and be seen to be impartial in how they treat those couples who are at a comparable level, and they have been anything but.

This goes back to the days of C/P and continues to the present, with perhaps the most egregious example being in G/P's Canadians debut - with the constant drumbeat for C/P in their last year together coming close. ( That year, judging by quotes from SC, you would hardly have known W/P existed until their big breakout at Worlds) .

This means that like W/P before them, P/I (or any other Canadian couple, for that matter) will have to be better in order to be considered equal and considerably better in order to rise above. Unfair though this may be, I think P/I are capable of doing it, but they'll need to be very astute in their choice of programs.

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. I agree with you that Skate Canada has given Paul Poirier and his 2 partners a boost at times, but for the most part it has usually been fairly marked.

First, in terms of Crone/Poirier vs. Weaver/Poje, it was usually the case that C&P were better than W&P internationally. It wasn't as if C&P got high marks at home but low marks internationally. They almost always beat W&P internationally. In those days C&P had skated together since the beginning, whereas Kaitlyn & Andrew got together much later. Andrew had another partner in Canada before Kaitlyn, and when she came along she was not as experienced. The reason there was more focus on C&P right into the final year of that rivalry is because it was only at the end that W&P started skating consistently and getting higher marks internationally. Up until very late, it had been C&P that had won the most medals on the Grand Prix and gotten onto the GPF podium. As Kaitlyn became a stronger skater and W&P became more consistent, they closed the gap and overtook C&P at 2011 Worlds.

Second, I agree that Gilles/Poirier were overmarked at their first Nationals together. I think that's because the judges were giving them marks that were more suited to the marks that C&P would have gotten. They were hoping that Piper could just step into Vanessa's place even though she didn't have the experience level to do so at that point. But in terms of the G&P rivalry with P&I, it happens to be that G&P have always gotten higher marks than P&I in the past (except for at 2014 Nationals). It's not as if G&P only get good marks in Canada, but bomb internationally. They've done well at most of their international events (except for 2013 Worlds). And after losing to P&I at 2014 Nationals, G&P won a silver at 4 Continents & placed 8th at Worlds -- those weren't Canadian competitions. Those were international events. And then this season G&P won 2 silvers and made it to the GPF. But I don't think they are ready to contend for the World podium yet as someone else above said. I think they need another year, maybe two, before they are ready for a World medal.

 

[Rafter]

They were interviewed before Christmas (article published today): http://www.simcoe.com/news-story/52...-olympic-ice-dancers-battling-to-stay-on-top/

Team DSC dance group photo via Kaitlin Hawayek's Instagram: http://instagram.com/p/xQgXDlCmpZ/

I don't think the choreography was the problem for the most part, but rather the music choice and theme/style of dance.

 

[skatingfan04]

Well, you guys wanted them to scrap their FD...
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10153520954137538&id=278550292537

These two always have to make things stressful for their fans, huh? I'm not sure how to feel about this, but I really hope it works out for them. All we can do is wait for nationals, I suppose.

 

[Marta24]

Well, you guys wanted them to scrap their FD...
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10153520954137538&id=278550292537

These two always have to make things stressful for their fans, huh? I'm not sure how to feel about this, but I really hope it works out for them. All we can do is wait for nationals, I suppose.

Well, I`m glad that they are changing it, I just wish they had made this decision sooner.

 

[Michelle]

I personally loved their exhibition skate to In Your Eyes so I'm very excited to see their FD.

 

[pani]

But they stay with Krylova? I think they need to change coaches. Krylova is all about WP now, but PI didn't have time to wait untill WP will retier

 

[lavenderblue]

Well, I hope they're happy in the switch, because this wouldn't seem to do much to address the actual hit their scores took this fall, which was on TES. Sinatra's PCS was equivalent to W.E.'s. It's also possible the change was suggested to them, in which case...well, it is what it is.

I was appreciating their sense of rhythm and improving power in the existing FD and was hoping to see revisions that could shape the weaker moments in the dance so this isn't a move that I'm thrilled with, especially not at this juncture. On the other hand, I'm not of the view that programs should be scored based on how I feel about them so my being kind of tired of that version of the song "In Your Eyes" after three years of seeing the show program, nice though it is, won't be a relevant issue with the judges. We'll see how it goes.

 

[geoskate]

I was appreciating their sense of rhythm and improving power in the existing FD

Agreed. However, in my opinion I think they must be feeling a bit fragile right now, given what has happened so far this season. The switch may help them with their psychological outlook and help them rebuild their confidence. If it does that, it will be a good move.