Papadakis/Cizeron #7 - A Matter of Confidentiality

[laviemn]

Yes, I do understand what you say and I don't think that Lambiel is a bad choice but he doesn't strike me as someone who has such a different voice from theirs (and that might be why they chose him too).

Lambiel is a solid choreographer, but I had the same thought that he might produce what we've come to expect from them, especially with the style of music they've chosen. I guess I wanted something very different from "typically G&G's style" but that's my problem, not theirs. I do think it's easier to convince both judges and fans that you're evolving with a dramatically different look and sound from the previous season, like Stepanova/Bukin did.

 

[Peepsquick]

Lambiel is a solid choreographer, but I had the same thought that he might produce what we've come to expect from them, especially with the style of music they've chosen. I guess I wanted something very different from "typically G&G's style" but that's my problem, not theirs. I do think it's easier to convince both judges and fans that you're evolving with a dramatically different look and sound from the previous season, like Stepanova/Bukin did.

I think many ice dance fans have gotten used to teams "style hopping" (for lack of a better expression ... I don't mean it to be derogative) and there is an expectation for a team to showcase different styles to prove their ability to do so. They are not content with just the RD. I am already resigned to hear many critical voices when G/G show their FD because they are into exploring their own style rather than changing skin (and that is the point: for them it is not external ... showing a different "face" but rather internal ... seeing how far they can push their own artistic endaevour). so , yeah, that will appeal to some and annoy many, who will deem them one-sided. But I have to tell you, theirs are the only pieces I go back to over and over again ...
And I hope (but I am not holding my breath ...) that we will be spared the comments on how easy and unchallenging their style is. If it was so, we would have seen many copy-cats by now. We didn't because it is NOT easy.

 

[Emdee]

I think many ice dance fans have gotten used to teams "style hopping" (for lack of a better expression ... I don't mean it to be derogative) and there is an expectation for a team to showcase different styles to prove their ability to do so. They are not content with just the RD. I am already resigned to hear many critical voices when G/G show their FD because they are into exploring their own style rather than changing skin (and that is the point: for them it is not external ... showing a different "face" but rather internal ... seeing how far they can push their own artistic endaevour). so , yeah, that will appeal to some and annoy many, who will deem them one-sided. But I have to tell you, theirs are the only pieces I go back to over and over again ...
And I hope (but I am not holding my breath ...) that we will be spared the comments on how easy and unchallenging their style is. If it was so, we would have seen many copy-cats by now. We didn't because it is NOT easy.

There are many copy cats but they don’t have their beautiful flow and soft knees so the programs don’t come out the same way. It is just not their lyrical style but what they put into it that makes them special.

That being said I wish they will use their wonderful technique but break out of their comfort zone.

 

[Peepsquick]

There are many copy cats but they don’t have their beautiful flow and soft knees so the programs don’t come out the same way. It is just not their lyrical style but what they put into it that makes them special.

That being said I wish they will use their wonderful technique but break out of their comfort zone.

I am not sure that it is about comfort zone at all. I think they just found what makes them feel whole.

 

[Icetigger]

P/C's "style" is based in freedom of movement. That's never going to change. What people call versatility is usually a couple demonstrating the number of different ways in which they can't dance freely. If you call dancing freely a "lyrical style" that's probably because you think all styles are the same and of equal value. They are not.

 

[ballettmaus]

There are many copy cats but they don’t have their beautiful flow and soft knees so the programs don’t come out the same way. It is just not their lyrical style but what they put into it that makes them special.

That being said I wish they will use their wonderful technique but break out of their comfort zone.

Why? They're good at it. It's what they excell at. And they're growing and challenging themselves within their style. Just like a dancer would, too. Or a musician. Or a painter. Everyone usually has a preferred style because it's what they realized they're best at but just because someone is sticking to a sytle doesn't mean that they're not going anywhere anymore.

 

[twinklestar]

lyrical: (of literature, art, or music) expressing the writer's emotions in an imaginative and beautiful way.

 

[Icetigger]

lyrical: (of literature, art, or music) expressing the writer's emotions in an imaginative and beautiful way.

I'm not keen on this definition (or at least do not see it as wholly positive). It is predicated on what T S Eliot called the Dissociation of Sensibility- that feelings and thought (or their expression) are different and separate (or have become so). It's easy to focus on the words "imaginative and beautiful" and think this is a positive, but the implicit negative is that lyrical expression is artificial and contrived and removed by degree from feeling.

 

[twinklestar]

Well, for example, in ballet, Kitri's variation is not what is called "lyrical", whereas the variation of the Queen of the Dryads in the same ballet is called "lyrical".

 

[GreenGan]

P/C will always have their own style of skating. They'll always have this fluidity and easyness when they skate and this expression through their whole body. They discovered it on Mozart I think, and then chose Build a Home because the difference in the music (from classical to modern pop) was obvious, the challenge was obvious. Then they went to Odduada to explore chaos (even if Stillness was added to make the program more bearable - how I wish they didn't add it !).

I don't think we can say Moonlight was a bold choice. It was the Olympic, they wanted to win so they chose classical. It's only logical, and they still managed to work on the music to highlight it by their movement imo, but there was no exploration of their style in it, even if it was the best skate of their life.
It was, in my opinion, a synthesis of Mozart' innovation, Build a Home's emotion and the choreographic challenge of Odduada. It was P/C's style, a recap of their Olympic season, on a classical music.

If we want to look at the emotion they have pictured until now, it went from the "basic" love story (chasing, falling for each other, breaking up => Mozart) to their story as friends (traveling, failing, joy because they are two on ice => Build a home), and then it was more philosophical (Chaos of life, finding peace in a partnership => Odduada/Stillness).
The stillness theme was somewhat redundant with their previous work. If we want to analyse Moonlight, I'd say it's about sadness, shock, despair and acceptance, but it's open to interpretation, even more than their previous work.

So far they expressed love, joy, sadness, a little bit of despair, struggle, acceptance.. It's mostly.. interior emotion ? Do you see what I mean ? I think they can go to more violent emotion now.
I'm not asking them to have the kind of presence Capellini/Lanotte had, they should stay them, but I'm curious to see what they'll do with deception, anger, fear, passion for example. Death maybe ? I think it could be glorious.

I've been looking through Yamagata's music, and now I wonder if they are not using acoustic version of her music. We'll see. But when I'm listenning to her, I'm not that optimistic about a change for an "exterior" emotion. They are not entitled to do what I want them to do of course, but it's a little disappointing . Aaah, NHK is so far !

PS : sorry for the looong post, I had to make a retrospective to make my thoughts more understandable. Thank you if you read all of it !

 

[Icetigger]

Well, for example, in ballet, Kitri's variation is not what is called "lyrical", whereas the variation of the Queen of the Dryads in the same ballet is called "lyrical".

Having looked at both, I immediately see your point. What style is the Kitri variation?

However, I don't agree that P/C are doing a lyrical style (at which point I could point out programmes where I do think a couple are doing a lyrical style and also the negatives that I think can be applied to what they are doing which don't apply to P/C, but that will set a lot of people off). I think what P/C do can be more developed (as in greengan's post) but that the basis should remain the same; and its basis is in freedom of movement.

 

[annie_mg]

Ice-dancers do have the opportunity to show something different with the Rythmic Dance. And Gabriella and Guillaume did that perfectly with the waltz in 2016 and last year's latin SDs. They are capable of variation. What more proof do people need?

And another thought. I never managed to become a fan of V/T and I don't even know why. I appreciate their amazing athlete abilities but something didn't resonate with me. I just didn't feel their chemistry, it didn't click with me. What's interesting is that I was the first one to say that I wished the would "try something different" and felt like they always skated to the same thing. 90% of this forum will think I'm crazy for saying this, but this is how I felt.

I wonder if the people criticizing P/C's "same" style simply don't get them the way I didn't get V/T. In which case, there's nothing to be done, no more arguments to push forward.

 

[Emdee]

IMO they have to decide whether they are pursuing art for art’s sake or art for public appreciation and judging approbation. If the latter they would do well to consider both a widening and further development of their ‘art’ form. An art that turns inward rather than taking it’s cue from life itself becomes disassociated.

 

[wickedwitch]

Ice-dancers do have the opportunity to show something different with the Rythmic Dance. And Gabriella and Guillaume did that perfectly with the waltz in 2016 and last year's latin SDs. They are capable of variation. What more proof do people need?

And another thought. I never managed to become a fan of V/T and I don't even know why. I appreciate their amazing athlete abilities but something didn't resonate with me. I just didn't feel their chemistry, it didn't click with me. What's interesting is that I was the first one to say that I wished the would "try something different" and felt like they always skated to the same thing. 90% of this forum will think I'm crazy for saying this, but this is how I felt.

I wonder if the people criticizing P/C's "same" style simply don't get them the way I didn't get V/T. In which case, there's nothing to be done, no more arguments to push forward.

I love P/C; they're my favorite team this decade. But personally, I would prefer if their FDs were more varied. It's my biggest criticism of them. There's only so much variation allowed by one RD/SD per season.

 

[sap5]

A great ballerina will always be dancing ballet. But it's the way she inteprets each piece of music, the emotions within, and makes it all come alive that's interesting. And we all know that can't happen if she's always dancing the same way. For me, the interest is seeing PC tackle different types of music, different themes, etc, and watch them make it all come alive.

 

[ballettmaus]

IMO they have to decide whether they are pursuing art for art’s sake or art for public appreciation and judging approbation. If the latter they would do well to consider both a widening and further development of their ‘art’ form. An art that turns inward rather than taking it’s cue from life itself becomes disassociated.

But they are. There's a huge difference dancing lyrical to classical music like the Moonlight Sonata or to a song with lyrics where the lyrics can guide you, for example.

One of my jazz teachers did a lot of lyrical but some choreographies I was able to feel more than others. Another jazz teacher wasn't really a lyrical dance teacher at all but more of a modern/contemporary one and yet, her choreographies felt lyrical. What I'm trying to say is, lyrical doesn't always equal lyrical and you can have lyrical within a lot of different styles and in my opinion, that is what P/C are doing.

 

[Emdee]

But they are. There's a huge difference dancing lyrical to classical music like the Moonlight Sonata or to a song with lyrics where the lyrics can guide you, for example.

One of my jazz teachers did a lot of lyrical but some choreographies I was able to feel more than others. Another jazz teacher wasn't really a lyrical dance teacher at all but more of a modern/contemporary one and yet, her choreographies felt lyrical.

Since I haven’t seen their program for this year I can only comment on my hopes, fears and dreams for them.

 

[Peepsquick]

Since I haven’t seen their program for this year I can only comment on my hopes, fears and dreams for them.

Sure, we are all chomping at the bit and getting some jitters from anticipation. At least, in my case!
If I could make a wish for this season, it would be for something fast and joyful or exuberant (not quite Yagamata's style though ... )
But to go back to what you said previously about art for art's sake vs public appreciation and judging approbation, I disagree that they are not mindful of the public, even though their performance is one that doesn't come at you but rather draws you in. I would say that this connection with the public is one of their primary "motors", if not their greatest motivator. The judges so far seem to be on board as well.

 

[Emdee]

Sure, we are all chomping at the bit and getting some jitters from anticipation. At least, in my case!
If I could make a wish for this season, it would be for something fast and joyful or exuberant (not quite Yagamata's style though ... )
But to go back to what you said previously about art for art's sake vs public appreciation and judging approbation, I disagree that they are not mindful of the public, even though their performance is one that doesn't come at you but rather draws you in. I would say that this connection with the public is one of their primary "motors", if not their greatest motivator. The judges so far seem to be on board as well.

Your last comment is true of the judges and discerning public, maybe. I find because they internalize their skates the bulk of people see them as a thing of beauty but are not touched. Witness the very lukewarm reception midnight sonata had at the olympics. I watched it again just yesterday.

 

[alain06fr]

Your last comment is true of the judges and discerning public, maybe. I find because they internalize their skates the bulk of people see them as a thing of beauty but are not touched. Witness the very lukewarm reception midnight sonata had at the olympics. I watched it again just yesterday.

FYI
List of P/C standing ovations (FD)
- Europeans 2015 Stockhom
- Worlds 2015 Shanghai
- Europeans 2016 Bratislava
- Worlds 2016 Boston (the only standing ovation of a “non US” couple)
- GPF 2016 Marseille
- Europeans 2017 Ostrava
- Worlds 2017 Helsinki (the ONLY standing ovation for a free dance...)
- GPF 2017 Nagoya
- Europeans 2018 Moscow
- Worlds 2018 Milan

Surprisingly, you took as one example the OG. Do you know what happened there... or not?

 

[Emdee]

I only mentioned the OG as I watched it yesterday again.

What happened when they skated MS? Did I miss something other than they had a fabulous skate?

 

[alain06fr]

I only mentioned the OG as I watched it yesterday again.

What happened when they skated MS? Did I miss something other than they had a fabulous skate?

There was no real audience at OG (and not only for figure skating BTW). At the FD, many seats were empty but a big north corean delegation of 3000 people came into the rink with big signs in english cheering V/M ... and no one else! These north coreans remained seated and completely silent during the whole competition except during and moreover at the end of V/M FD. They suddenly stood up and made a huge noise in the arena. Indeed a typical figure skating fan behavior!

 

[Emdee]

There was no real audience at OG (and not only for figure skating BTW). At the FD, many seats were empty but a big north corean delegation of 3000 people came into the rink with big signs in english cheering V/M ... and no one else! These north coreans remained seated and completely silent during the whole FD except during and moreover at the end of V/M FD. They suddenly stood up and made a huge noise in the arena. Indeed a typical figure skating fan behavior!

Wow didn’t know that. Were you lucky enough to be there? There were some North Koreans as far as I saw on TV but not such a huge delegation as you mention. I know VM are big fan favourites in South Korea from the time they skated with Kim Yuna in her shows. In fact at worlds 2013 a South Korean guy came around and gave us huge paddle boards with Yuna’s face and VM faces to wave.

 

[Peepsquick]

Your last comment is true of the judges and discerning public, maybe. I find because they internalize their skates the bulk of people see them as a thing of beauty but are not touched. Witness the very lukewarm reception midnight sonata had at the olympics. I watched it again just yesterday.

I do think that the OG are more geared towards die-hard sports fan and they will be more responsive to athleticism than art. Figure skating is supposed to be a mix of both (Kunsteislauf, patinage artistique etc ... the concept is clearer in other languages than English, I find). The public of FSU-type events is much savvier than the OG public naturally.

 

[RoseRed]

Sure, we are all chomping at the bit and getting some jitters from anticipation. At least, in my case!
If I could make a wish for this season, it would be for something fast and joyful or exuberant (not quite Yagamata's style though ... )
But to go back to what you said previously about art for art's sake vs public appreciation and judging approbation, I disagree that they are not mindful of the public, even though their performance is one that doesn't come at you but rather draws you in. I would say that this connection with the public is one of their primary "motors", if not their greatest motivator. The judges so far seem to be on board as well.

Oh that would be fun to see. Do you have any idea of what type of music would go with that and suit them?

 

[Peepsquick]

Oh that would be fun to see. Do you have any idea of what type of music would go with that and suit them?

I have not thought that far but we should put our heads together and come up with some ideas ...

 

[alain06fr]

Wow didn’t know that. Were you lucky enough to be there? There were some North Koreans as far as I saw on TV but not such a huge delegation as you mention. I know VM are big fan favourites in South Korea from the time they skated with Kim Yuna in her shows. In fact at worlds 2013 a South Korean guy came around and gave us huge paddle boards with Yuna’s face and VM faces to wave.

Don’t be that naive. Everyone knew that these north coreans didn’t have the money to buy that many expensive seats. None of them spoke a word of english but they managed to build so many fancy signs in english! LOL

 

[Emdee]

Don’t be that naive. Everyone knew that these north coreans didn’t have the money to buy that many expensive seats. None of them spoke a word of english but they managed to build so many fancy signs in english! LOL

Were you there....who is everyone...another mystery of your own making, alack!
Why do you always have to throw shade and innuendo and bring forth all kinds of conspiracy theories. Move on...I have . I supported PC since 2015 August when I saw them in Barrie and I will continue to be their fan.

 

[alain06fr]

G&G’s free dance at Europeans and Worlds (with arenas full or almost full!) have been crazy and very emotional moments I will never forget.

I remember this unbelievable moment in Bratislava (Europeans 2016) and this British guy seated next to me and crying at the end of their FD. “That was sublime” he said adding he came to Bratislava for this free dance as he knew it would be a unique moment.

I remember these dozen of US friendly guys seating around me in Boston. When G&G got a standing ovation at the end of their program, these guys got really confused, thinking for a few seconds G&G was a US couple!

Helsinki was also a fantastic moment. The arena was full for the free dance. We knew that getting a standing ovation with “Stillness Oddudua” would be really challenging even though we saw the positive reation of the audience at Europeans. The arena was conpletely silent during most of their FD (like In Stockholm and Bratislava) and at the end, the audience stood up. That was soooo amazing and impressive.

 

[Peepsquick]

G&G’s free dance at Europeans and Worlds (with arenas full or almost full!) have been crazy and very emotional moments I will never forget.

I remember this unbelievable moment in Bratislava (Europeans 2016) and this British guy seated next to me and crying at the end of their FD. “That was sublime” he said adding he came to Bratislava for this free dance as he knew it would be a unique moment.

I remember these dozen of US friendly guys seating around me in Boston. When G&G got a standing ovation at the end of their program, these guys got really confused, thinking for a few seconds G&G was a US couple!

Helsinki was also a fantastic moment. The arena was full for the free dance. We knew that getting a standing ovation with “Stillness Oddudua” would be really challenging even though we saw the positive reation of the audience at Europeans. The arena was conpletely silent during most of their FD (like In Stockholm and Bratislava) and at the end, the audience stood up. That was soooo amazing and impressive.

You are really lucky to have seen them so many times live!