Invisible expensive leaks

[Spun Silver]

A question for homeowners or plumbers here: how do you find a leak you cant see? Our water bill has been jumping like crazy -- i.e., this month's is almost 10x last month's for no reason related to usage, and over the winter there was a 3-month period when it was even higher than that, but the problem mysteriously resolved itself. I had our meter replaced and tested, but the test showed it was working properly (unless they had a way of gaming the test). Our house is old but about 3/4 of the plumbing is relatively new (4-15 years). The plumber says there is no sign of a leak anywhere and he has no idea what I should do. The water company is no help either, and they are making out like thieves over our problem.

Any suggestions?

 

[KCC]

My first thought was a toilet that was continuing to run, but you or the plumber would have noticed that. Maybe l leaky garden hose? Good luck!

 

[vireo]

It is possible your water meter could not be functioning properly. I had a situation similar to yours. The water bill suddenly tripled. We were not using any more water than usual and a plumber examined all the plumbing and found no leaks. We finally asked the water company if the meter could be malfunctioning. They replaced the meter and took the old one in to be tested. The water company said they found nothing wrong with our old meter, but left the new one in place. As soon as they replaced the meter, our measured water use and bills returned to normal and stayed that way.

I am convinced the old meter went bad and wasn't measuring our water use properly. We never got any sort of refund, because the water company never admitted their faulty equipment was the source of our suddenly exorbitant bills. But at least we stopped the overcharges.

 

[Spun Silver]

Thanks, @vireo, but we went through all that. The old meter tested fine amd we now have a new digital one. Which I cannot read at all even with a $50 LED flashlight!

My plumber did fix a small leak that I just found at the site where the water company installed the new meter. There was a faulty washer. But he said that tiny amount of leakage would not account for my water bill going up by a factor of 10.

And @KCC, we have good garden hoses and I dont see any leakage. There's sometimes a little around the nozzle attachment, but again, how could that make my water bill go up by 10x? It only went up a moderate amount last August when my garden-watering was at its peak, and I was watering two hydrangeas sometimes for hours at a time!

It seems like there has to be a *major* problem somewhere but when there are no signs....???

 

[just tuned in]

It is probably one of the toilets. A faulty float valve or flapper can waste gallons of water per day and it do so silently.

I had a similar problem, water bill was skyrocketing. Had the water company test and change the meter, etc.

We finally changed the float valves and that fixed the problem.

 

[Spun Silver]

It is probably one of the toilets. A faulty float valve or flapper can waste gallons of water per day and it do so silently.

I had a similar problem, water bill was skyrocketing. Had the water company test and change the meter, etc.

We finally changed the float valves and that fixed the problem.

Thank you, @just tuned in. That sounds doable and not too expensive. The water company did say toilets are the number 1 cause of leaks.

 

[Aceon6]

To test the toilets, flush them at night, then, when they've COMPLETELY stopped, put some food coloring in the tank. Check the bowl in the morning before you do anything. If you see colored water... bingo.

Check outside, too. Most houses have at least two outside faucets and they can go bad quickly as can sprinkler systems.

 

[Deleted member 1204]

If it's a significant problem, you could consider getting a plumber to do hydrostatic testing. They pressurize your pipes to a certain pressure, then monitor the pressure over several minutes to see if it goes down, which would confirm a leak. If you detect a leak, the challenge is then locating it. If not, though, you can relax and look for other sources of running water.

 

[Tinami Amori]

A question for homeowners or plumbers here: how do you find a leak you cant see? Our water bill has been jumping like crazy -- i.e., this month's is almost 10x last month's for no reason related to usage, and over the winter there was a 3-month period when it was even higher than that, but the problem mysteriously resolved itself. I had our meter replaced and tested, but the test showed it was working properly (unless they had a way of gaming the test). Our house is old but about 3/4 of the plumbing is relatively new (4-15 years). The plumber says there is no sign of a leak anywhere and he has no idea what I should do. The water company is no help either, and they are making out like thieves over our problem.

Any suggestions?

I have seen few times the following : ... (it's odd, and not frequent, and is only possible in certain residential layout of a property in respect to neighbors' properties, and the set up of the irrigation system). A neighbor taps into another neighbor's irrigation line. It's odd, and uncommon. But i've seen such situation across the street from my mother's house. Neighbor "A" had main the irrigation hose along side of the fence, hidden deep inside a solid wall of shrub. The fence, against which hose/rubber pipe was placed, was not all the way to the ground and on a slanted hill, and could be seen from the patio of the next-door neighbor "B". Neighbor's "B" adult son ran a side hose from that pipe..... It took over 2 years to discover it.

There are few other stories, in the same "direction" with slightly different set up. I've seen a pipe tapped not from inside the hose on the property, but from the segment of the main line that is dedicated to specific house (and the neighbor hooked into it).

Next thing, is Refrigerators which make "ice cubes" or any appliances which have a hose running to the main line, check it...

I would ask your neighbors if they are also experiencing water usage variations.

 

[Spun Silver]

@Tinami Amori, I am pretty sure that theft is not the issue because my bills would then be consistently high. My problem is sporadic. My plumber said that if any appliances are at fault, there would be water all over my floors. Do you think that's wrong? Also, I am not sure how to check a hose running to the main line.... will google it....

Just talked to one neighbor - nothing... Waiting for the others to come home from work.

@Aceon6, I use the outdoor faucets regularly at this time of year and havent noticed anything untoward. What would I be looking for exactly? I do have a faucet whose handle keeps coming off, so I just screw it back on. It still works. Does that sound like a problem? -I will do the toilet tests tonight!

@mikey, thank you for that explanation. It clarifies an ad I saw by a plumber that claims to detect leaks. But when you say, "the challenge is locating" the leak, do you know what is involved in that hunt? Would my house be torn apart?

 

[GarrAargHrumph]

Spun Silver, don't bring in a "leak detecting" plumber on this yet. Let me ask my husband tomorrow. I swear the man knows all. At least when it comes to stuff like this he does. I know he had tricks to find leaks that were not apparent.

If I don't come back into this thread with his answer tomorrow by about 8pm, please PM me at your leisure, and I'll come back in.

 

[TheGirlCanSkate]

My aunt works for a water company and the fbi has them report any huge amounts of water for a home. I wonder if a neighbor has a farm in their basement and is siphoning water off for it when you aren't home. On your outdoor spigots, I would put water locks. The toilet test sounds easy and it is free. It would be nice if that was the cost because it is easily repaired.

Is there an area of your yard that is more lush/green than another area? I had oleander around my property fence that was about 30+ years old and the roots cracked a waterpipe. Not enough to have us notice anything off, but our water bill jumped almost overnight. The clue was a bright green patch of lawn on our sad Arizona lawn.

 

[Spun Silver]

Spun Silver, don't bring in a "leak detecting" plumber on this yet. Let me ask my husband tomorrow. I swear the man knows all. At least when it comes to stuff like this he does. I know he had tricks to find leaks that were not apparent.

If I don't come back into this thread with his answer tomorrow by about 8pm, please PM me at your leisure, and I'll come back in.

Thank you so much!!!

I will gather more info before doing anything.

 

[Spun Silver]

My aunt works for a water company and the fbi has them report any huge amounts of water for a home. I wonder if a neighbor has a farm in their basement and is siphoning water off for it when you aren't home. On your outdoor spigots, I would put water locks. The toilet test sounds easy and it is free. It would be nice if that was the cost because it is easily repaired.

Is there an area of your yard that is more lush/green than another area? I had oleander around my property fence that was about 30+ years old and the roots cracked a waterpipe. Not enough to have us notice anything off, but our water bill jumped almost overnight. The clue was a bright green patch of lawn on our sad Arizona lawn.

That is interesting. Our lawn is unusually green but that is a combination of our landscaper's work and the unusually cool, damp spring. That particular test wont work for me until about August. :/

As for theft from the outdoor faucets, i am positive that could not happen without my knowing. One or the other of us is at home and awake too much of the time. Plus we have yappy dogs.

I will call the water company and ask if there is such a rule about reporting stuff to the FBI, but I am not hopeful. I talked to them at length, in person, when this happened last winter, and they were absolutely useless. It was infuriating.

ETA: i really appreciate all the replies. Thanks so much, everyone.

 

[Reuven]

Your plumber didn't check the toilets? That's the one fixture that can leak and you won't see it. Faucets drip, pipes leak, so that's visible. @Aceon6 has the right idea. But just to add, if you do see colour in the bowl, don't flush it until you take the lid off the tank to see if the water is going into the overflow tube (usually in or near the center) or if the level is normal. If it's normal, the flapper will need to be replaced, if the flush mechanism is a flapper type. Some use a cylinder which has a seal on the bottom, which would need replacing. (That's a little more tricky) If water is flowing into the overflow tube, then the fill valve will need to be repaired or replaced. If you have an irrigation system, those can leak underground. Just shut off the water to the system and see if that makes a difference in your water usage.

 

[Spun Silver]

The plumber went to each toilet but didnt want to look at the tank. He just listened and said if there were a problem you could hear it. I am looking in the tanks and googling pictures of all those toilet parts so I can understand what you are saying. I can see right away that on one toilet some water is going into the overflow tube. The water level is right at the top of the tube.

No irrigation system.

Thanks, @Reuven.

 

[agalisgv]

I had this happen once. Turned out it was the connection to my washing machine. The faucet connecting to the water hose was running constantly, but at such a rate that it went into the drain around the faucet so no leak ever appeared. It just needed a washer added to make the faucet turn off all the way.

Where I live, when a water bill is very high, the water company will send someone out free of charge to investigate where the problem may be coming from. They will adjust all the toilets, look at all the sprinklers, etc. Eventually we found the problem. When I could document it was repaired, the water company refunded the excess monies paid above normal usage. I don't know if that have that where you are, but it might be worth a try.

Best--

 

[Spun Silver]

Thanks, @agalisgv. I have a call in to the water co. but if they have such a service they sure didnt mention it during any of our phone and face to face convos last winter. That would be amazing. Maybe I should talk to some politicians about water company accountability.

I will go look behind my washing machine now!

 

[Spun Silver]

Do you remember whether the hunt for your problem involved special equipment, expert nosing around, or what, @agalisgv? I looked around the washing machine and didn't see anything amiss. But I don't know what to look for or fiddle with, or how to do it without making matters worse.

I am very disappointed that my plumber refused to do this detective work and professed total helplessness.

 

[agalisgv]

My innotechnik reply is where the water hose connects to the wall, it hooks into the wall and there are one or two faucets there. One of those faucets was just oozing water no matter how much you turned it, so they had to add a washer to it, and then it stopped oozing water.

Hope that makes sense

 

[Reuven]

I am very disappointed that my plumber refused to do this detective work and professed total helplessness.

This Master Plumber of 40 yrs experience is a bit baffled at the attitude.
As far as the clothes washer connections, just feeling around and see if your hand gets wet should suffice.

 

[Spun Silver]

Me too, @Reuven. My hand didn't get wet, so I guess I have eliminated one possibility.

 

[Spun Silver]

My innotechnik reply is where the water hose connects to the wall, it hooks into the wall and there are one or two faucets there. One of those faucets was just oozing water no matter how much you turned it, so they had to add a washer to it, and then it stopped oozing water.

Hope that makes sense

Yes, thank you! I did find a faucet near the wall, and it was dry.

As I mentioned above, I did have that kind of oozing in another place (caused, ironically, by the guy from the water company who made a mistake in installing our new meter) and my plumber fixed it with a washer. But he does not think that could have caused such an increase in our bill. And it definitely didnt cause the winter problems since the new meter was installed afterwards.

 

[Deleted member 1204]

@mikey, thank you for that explanation. It clarifies an ad I saw by a plumber that claims to detect leaks. But when you say, "the challenge is locating" the leak, do you know what is involved in that hunt? Would my house be torn apart?

To my inexpert knowledge, there are only two possibilities if you don't see water anywhere: using a video snake to try to find the leak from inside the pipes (they usually go in through a toilet), or digging the pipes up and inspecting the pipes directly.

 

[Spun Silver]

To my inexpert knowledge, there are only two possibilities if you don't see water anywhere: using a video snake to try to find the leak from inside the pipes (they usually go in through a toilet), or digging the pipes up and inspecting the pipes directly.

Ugh. That latter idea is what I fear. Great to know there is a video pipe snake though. Thanks.

 

[Deleted member 221]

Your plumber sounds incompetent. Sounds like a toilet issue to me, too. This happened in my co-op multiple times (one water bill for all units), and it was always a toilet. Not sure anything else could cause your water bill to jump 10x. We had various other types of leaks in the co-op building, and none caused anything close to 10x other than a toilet flapper. By the time I moved, I was about ready to mandate annual replacement of every toilet flapper to stop these periodic $500 water bill overages.

 

[Aceon6]

I can see right away that on one toilet some water is going into the overflow tube. The water level is right at the top of the tube.

One source found. Call a real/different plumber and have him/her adjust the fill level.

 

[Reuven]

using a video snake to try to find the leak from inside the pipes (they usually go in through a toilet)

Drainage isn’t going to be a source of higher water bills, but it is an excellent method of inspecting drainage for potential issues. There are companies that have the technology to locate hidden leaks without tearing things apart, IIRC.

 

[Spun Silver]

Spun Silver, don't bring in a "leak detecting" plumber on this yet. Let me ask my husband tomorrow. I swear the man knows all. At least when it comes to stuff like this he does. I know he had tricks to find leaks that were not apparent.

If I don't come back into this thread with his answer tomorrow by about 8pm, please PM me at your leisure, and I'll come back in.

GarrAH, I've identified one source of the problem but am not sure if it alone could account for the size or pattern of my problem ($1000 in extra usage costs since last fall, but with a four-month hiatus when the problem disappeared). Did your husband have any thoughts? Much appreciated.

 

[GarrAargHrumph]

My husband also suggested you do the toilet tank dye test. His first thought was that you have a toilet issue.

He suggested that the next time you plan to leave the house empty for the day or evening, look at the water meter and write the reading down. When you return, check it again. It should not have changed (unless you have a sprinkler system that goes off or something; if possible, shut that off for the test.) If the reading changed by a couple of gallons, it's probably your toilet leaking. If it changed by 30-40 gallons, either someone is stealing your water or you have a massive leak.