First time Ever Russians have no Ice Dance medal! Reform suggestions?

caseyedwards

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Fire all coaches like zhulin and kustarova? No more funding!

Fund training camps where they learn about IJS

Create teams where both have talent! No more bent bobrova’s and stiff Stepanova’s

Send all people to North America to dubreuil?!?
 
The Soviets/Russians did very well with coaches like Chaikovskaya, Tarasova, Dubova, and Linichuk. But that was under the old scoring system. Do any of these coaches have any higher profile teams these days? I know Chaikovskaya isn't coaching these days but I'm not sure about the other 3.
 
Jesus (also known as Chaikovskaya) take the wheel! :saint:

She had s/k for two competitions and most of their levels were 2!

The Soviets/Russians did very well with coaches like Chaikovskaya, Tarasova, Dubova, and Linichuk. But that was under the old scoring system. Do any of these coaches have any higher profile teams these days? I know Chaikovskaya isn't coaching these days but I'm not sure about the other 3.
No. They all are finished. Most actually hate IJS. Tchaikovskaya had gorshkova and buitikov - worst packaging ever and low levels and then years later s/k bad levels.
 
She had s/k for two competitions and most of their levels were 2!


No. They all are finished. Most actually hate IJS. Tchaikovskaya had gorshkova and buitikov - worst packaging ever and low levels and then years later s/k bad levels.

Ilinykh coach?
 
She had s/k for two competitions and most of their levels were 2!


No. They all are finished. Most actually hate IJS. Tchaikovskaya had gorshkova and buitikov - worst packaging ever and low levels and then years later s/k bad levels.

Wow. Didn't know Tchaikovskaya came back to coaching. Her heydey was the 70s so not suprised that her more current teams didn't do as well. Ice dance has changed so much since that time.

There was a time where Dubova was an incredible coach because her teams had amazing basics. But her work started to become more and more disappointing after the fall of communism. It was also mentioned here before that losing Klimova, Ponomarenko, Grishuk, Platov, and Navka due to her coaching politics probably broke her.
 
They might as well try! I mean new thinking might help if she’s allowed new thinking. Russia dance is now officially in its worst state ever of all time. Maybe ilinykh could help.

Frankly, I thought they were barely hanging on in 2010 when Domnina/Shabalin [barely] got bronze. But why did they not change things then? It's the same with pairs. Why did they not have anyone after Totmianina/Marinin ready go to?? They simply got lucky with extremely talented and matched Volosozhar/Trankov in 2014.
 
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Keep Tarasova as far away as possible from promising pairs. They should banish her to Siberia for the next eight years at least, please.

Also, they should send Bobrova on paid leave for a very, very, long time.
 
And this is not really to do with Russian ice dance, by why are Krylova (and Carmerlengo) teams not well-received? Hawayek/Baker are very good but we've been waiting for them to break through since, well, forever.
 
Wow. Didn't know Tchaikovskaya came back to coaching. Her heydey was the 70s so not suprised that her more current teams didn't do as well. Ice dance has changed so much since that time.

There was a time where Dubova was an incredible coach because her teams had amazing basics. But her work started to become more and more disappointing after the fall of communism. It was also mentioned here before that losing Klimova, Ponomarenko, Grishuk, Platov, and Navka due to her coaching politics probably broke her.

Dubova moved to US and since no one in Russian Federation liked her and didn’t want to send Russian teams to US anyway she had no teams from Russia. Russia won’t even send people to spiliband anymore.

Frankly, I thought they were barely hanging on in 2010 when Domnina/Shabalin [barely] got bronze. But why did they not change things then? It's the same with pairs. Why did they not have anyone after Totmianina/Marinin ready go to?? They simply got lucky with extremely talented and matched Volosozhar/Trankov in 2014.

That’s true. The fall of d/s from world champs to third and linichuk school and rise of z/s school should have been a warning. But they made b/s coached by kustarova number one. But there was the zueva khokhlova/Andreev project but that reflected only one person needs talent thinking and khokhlova while having great qualities wasn’t some kind of great skater either. So that project ended. I/k were so inconsistent.

Keep Tarasova as far away as possible from promising pairs. They should banish her to Siberia for the next eight years at least, please.

Also, they should send Bobrova on paid leave for a very, very, long time.

Right on both counts. Tarasova is destructive.



And this is not really to do with Russian ice dance, by why are Krylova (and Carmerlengo) teams not well-received? Hawayek/Baker are very good but we've been waiting for them to break through since, well, forever.

Just overshadowed by z/s schools and now dubreuil.
 
Dubova moved to US and since no one in Russian Federation liked her and didn’t want to send Russian teams to US anyway she had no teams from Russia. Russia won’t even send people to spiliband anymore.

I wonder how the Russian skating federation felt about the way the whole thing with Dubova, K&P and G&P played out (I doubt they cared about Navka at that time since she & Gezalian skated for Belarus).
 
Dubova moved to US and since no one in Russian Federation liked her and didn’t want to send Russian teams to US anyway she had no teams from Russia. Russia won’t even send people to spiliband anymore.



That’s true. The fall of d/s from world champs to third and linichuk school and rise of z/s school should have been a warning. But they made b/s coached by kustarova number one. But there was the zueva khokhlova/Andreev project but that reflected only one person needs talent thinking and khokhlova while having great qualities wasn’t some kind of great skater either. So that project ended. I/k were so inconsistent.



Right on both counts. Tarasova is destructive.





Just overshadowed by z/s schools and now dubreuil.

Who is running this train? It sounds like whoever is at the top of Russian Fed does not have a clue as to what they are doing. What a mess!
 
I wonder how the Russian skating federation felt about the way the whole thing with Dubova, K&P and G&P played out (I doubt they cared about Navka at that time since she & Gezalian skated for Belarus).

This is a good write up. You may have seen this already.
http://ptichkafs.livejournal.com/48979.html

Dubova was on the wrong side of history! Linichuk won.

Who is running this train? It sounds like whoever is at the top of Russian Fed does not have a clue as to what they are doing. What a mess!

It’s very bad. If they think they rather it be very bad than follow what emigres are doing it’s a bad nationalism! Zhulin said and maybe kustarova too they’d rather lose every competition than do ice dance “wrong”! Horrible stubbornness.
 
Thanks for that!

You’re welcome

And yet another thread saying how Russian ice dance is doomed. What about if the same topic abd exactly same arguments were kept within one thread? It is getting a bit monotonous!

It’s a big story! End of 40 plus years of Russians on ice dance podium!

https://translate.googleusercontent...700201&usg=ALkJrhgmNVXoJQ4ggFbp9fxBpHUKby-QDQ

Would it not have been a different story if I/K had stayed together? They certainly looked like the future.

I/K were so erratic! Maybe they would have matured to consistency together - doubtful their disastrously inconsistent new partnerships as well- but maybe they would have stayed the same team that couldn’t medal at NHK 2013 , beat virtue and Moir in tech at 2013 Trophée Éric Bompard ,not make gpf, lose to b/s at nationals then c/l at euros, win Olympic bronze then not medal at the worlds.
 
Send all people to North America to dubreuil?!?

For god sake NO! Russians have already a natural drama in them. No need to add tons of sugar also with Dubreuil's programs and make them cheesy-melo. :slinkaway

It’s a big story! End of 40 plus years of Russians on ice dance podium!

https://translate.googleusercontent...700201&usg=ALkJrhgmNVXoJQ4ggFbp9fxBpHUKby-QDQ

I have no idea why this is a big story honestly. The writing was on the wall for the last 4 years. Did anybody expected B&S, or any other Russian couple to medal here? :huh:
 
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For god sake NO! Russians have already a natural drama in them. No need to add tons of sugar also with Dubreuil's programs and make them cheesy-melo. :slinkaway



I have no idea why this is a big story honestly. The writing was on the wall for the last 4 years. Did anybody expected B&S, or any other Russian couple to medal here? :huh:

Why else are the reporters asking why third in 2013 worlds and third in last years worlds free dance didn’t mean a medal for them here? There is a great delusion. So now that they didn’t it’s a great opportunity to discuss the overwhelming collapse and disastrous state of Russian ice dance! It’s very exciting time.

About being coached by dubreuil it’s about by being where it’s cool to be!
 
Why else are the reporters asking why third in 2013 worlds and third in last years worlds free dance didn’t mean a medal for them here?

Ignorance? Not following figure skating all these years? Neccessaity to fill their papers and tweets with a non-story? :shuffle:

About being coached by dubreuil it’s about by being where it’s cool to be!

The "cool" place can become very easily the "tiepid" place in FS. 4 years ago Marina was the "cool" place, even 8 years ago. Things change, it's a cycle. You need to change the mentality and create a supporting system around talented skaters. The solution isn't to find out who's the "coolest" coach at the moment.
 
Ignorance? Not following figure skating all these years? Neccessaity to fill their papers and tweets with a non-story? :shuffle:



The "cool" place can become very easily the "tiepid" place in FS. 4 years ago Marina was the "cool" place, even 8 years ago. Things change, it's a cycle. You need to change the mentality and create a supporting system around talented skaters. The solution isn't to find out who's the "coolest" coach at the moment.
Bobrova and soloviev not meddling was always going to be a fact but it still means Russians not on podium for first time in 42 years! So that’s what they are discussing really and why. Tarasova says it’s all because they didn’t listen to her and change the short dance and she’s offended.

Dubreuil and zueva have teams on podium and Russia doesn’t. At the very least all Russian coaches in dance in Russia must study them and their devotion to ijs and equal talent partnerships.
 
And they studied the Russians before, and so on and so forth. Again, it's a natural cycle. See women's where the tables are turned.
Serie A ruled football till the lat 90s, not anymore. It happens. *Shrugs.

I love TAT, bless her. But she says a lot of nonsense. I wouldn't take her advice, and she's not the answer. She is the past.
 
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Gee one Olympics and it is the death of Russian ice dancing. Maybe there are other couples that are just much better than the Russian ice dancers these days.

Also Stepanova and Bukin were unable to go so maybe the best team were not there. Still not sure they would have medalled.
 
I wonder if the end of compulsories plays a factor, because the CD was often a strength of Russian teams and weakness of NA teams. I remember Belbin/Agosto always lost ground in the CD. N/K and Domnina/Shabalin were both outstanding in CDs. In particular, D/S had a clear advantage over V/M and B/W in that phase.

Anyway, given their deeply-rooted tradition, I am confident that the Russian coaches/school have the capacity to create great ice dance teams again.
 
Gee one Olympics and it is the death of Russian ice dancing. Maybe there are other couples that are just much better than the Russian ice dancers these days.

Also Stepanova and Bukin were unable to go so maybe the best team were not there. Still not sure they would have medalled.

They would not have medalled. But I think we underestimate the Gadbois group. They did do Moulin Rouge, they through this experience have also grown. I do think this win of V/M will see them evolve with respect to their style. Or at the very least I hope so.

As to all that ails Russian ice dancing it will not be a quick fix. They have to go back to the basics and teach their junior dancers how to glide, how to properly perform their compulsory dances, fix issues of posturing and what not. This lack of solid fundamentals was glaringly obvious when you compared the skates of the Shibs with B/S. Russians have speed and attack and that is great for single skaters, but if you're going to be an ice dancer, you need to add nuances, control, smoothness, soft knees, extension, character etc.

Personally, I look back at Elena Ilinykh's skates with Shibnev at test skates and I wondered to myself, there goes the best ice dancer that they've had in ages and she has no partner that can match her? Yet they have all these boys trying to jump and they're not making the cut. Is it that they see no prestige in ice dancing? Where are all the men? I think it's a good idea that she's begun to coach, I hope she can make a palpable difference in the future.

EDIT: Tarasova claims B/S would have had a better chance of getting bronze if they changed their SD from September. WE all knew that, but Zhulin had other plans. His plan was to get in S/K so he gave them the more sophisticated SD. B/S is arguably your top Russian team and they can't even be supplied with decent material. Russian politics and their own tomfoolery will be their biggest obstacle to achieving Olympic success.
 
Russia seems to have a long-standing problem of converting promising juniors into good seniors. Bob/Sol did what they could, you could argue that they've been carrying the senior dance program for eight years. The problem for them also starts earlier and ties back to my first sentence: Why does Bobrova have these ingrained posture issues? They started with Kustarova, right? Somehow her issues there were never corrected. Once she was in her twenties or whatever, of course it gets more difficult to change anything. Also, yeah that SD they had was meh. They wouldn't have medalled, but their FD was well received while the SD fell totally flat...

Same with Stepanova. I'm not sure if she hasn't got the talent or hasn't learned properly...but her issues with skating skills are being addressed now, it seems. Not years ago, when it would have been perhaps easier to undo damage. And I can see this scenario playing out again and again...good junior results, fading out in seniors because some glaring technical issues weren't addressed soon enough.

Also, they need more coaches who have a vague idea how to construct programs geared towards COP. Zhulin has his moments, though he flubs as well, but I haven't seen many well received programs done by coaches/choreographers located in Russia. At least not in seniors.
 
I think Krylova is promising, she just hasn't had the most talented teams yet. I fangirl over Baker but they do have some limitations. I think the Russians just need someone willing to crunch the numbers like Eteri did with ladies. Figure out what scores well. Its like the Russians are to ice dance what the US is to ladies - slow to accept IJS. The medals last night came down to technical details. I think that is an anathema to Russian ice dance.
 
And they studied the Russians before, and so on and so forth. Again, it's a natural cycle. See women's where the tables are turned.
Serie A ruled football till the lat 90s, not anymore. It happens. *Shrugs.

I love TAT, bless her. But she says a lot of nonsense. I wouldn't take her advice, and she's not the answer. She is the past.

Even when t/d took over ice dance in the early 80’s and then A/P took over in early to 2000’s Russians were right there behind hem. Even in IJS era when there was 2008 worlds and delobel and schoenfelder won gold and v/m won silver khokhlova and novitski won bronze! Even 10 years ago the second Russian team can win a bronze!! Now it’s all over. There is no keeping up. The Russian school isn’t even different and equal it’s different and far behind!

Gee one Olympics and it is the death of Russian ice dancing. Maybe there are other couples that are just much better than the Russian ice dancers these days.

Also Stepanova and Bukin were unable to go so maybe the best team were not there. Still not sure they would have medalled.

But how did so many couples become better than all Russian couples? V/m and p/c no doubt better. Love both those teams. So so so superior! But now also shibutani’s are superior too?! Like how did that happen as well?

S/b only been 10th place-ish at worlds. Maybe not a factor!

I wonder if the end of compulsories plays a factor, because the CD was often a strength of Russian teams and weakness of NA teams. I remember Belbin/Agosto always lost ground in the CD. N/K and Domnina/Shabalin were both outstanding in CDs. In particular, D/S had a clear advantage over V/M and B/W in that phase.

Anyway, given their deeply-rooted tradition, I am confident that the Russian coaches/school have the capacity to create great ice dance teams again.

C/D’s were great for Russians! I brought up K/N and even they excelled at C/D but now even in short dance in c/d Russians are falling behind. The scoring of Russians teams c/d are plummeting.

But now I wonder if all funding for ice dance will dry up making the problem worse and now this quad 2018-2022 will be even worse then 2014- 2018. All funding will go to ladies and the bottom hasn’t even been reached yet. Then good skaters abandon ice dance as well. So it’s all a lost generation.

They would not have medalled. But I think we underestimate the Gadbois group. They did do Moulin Rouge, they through this experience have also grown. I do think this win of V/M will see them evolve with respect to their style. Or at the very least I hope so.

As to all that ails Russian ice dancing it will not be a quick fix. They have to go back to the basics and teach their junior dancers how to glide, how to properly perform their compulsory dances, fix issues of posturing and what not. This lack of solid fundamentals was glaringly obvious when you compared the skates of the Shibs with B/S. Russians have speed and attack and that is great for single skaters, but if you're going to be an ice dancer, you need to add nuances, control, smoothness, soft knees, extension, character etc.

Personally, I look back at Elena Ilinykh's skates with Shibnev at test skates and I wondered to myself, there goes the best ice dancer that they've had in ages and she has no partner that can match her? Yet they have all these boys trying to jump and they're not making the cut. Is it that they see no prestige in ice dancing? Where are all the men? I think it's a good idea that she's begun to coach, I hope she can make a palpable difference in the future.

EDIT: Tarasova claims B/S would have had a better chance of getting bronze if they changed their SD from September. WE all knew that, but Zhulin had other plans. His plan was to get in S/K so he gave them the more sophisticated SD. B/S is arguably your top Russian team and they can't even be supplied with decent material. Russian politics and their own tomfoolery will be their biggest obstacle to achieving Olympic success.

Agree! Glide, knees, posture. So sick of commentators talking about speed skating posture Russians! Stiff legged Russians. That’s what Russia is now in dance. Totally bent or totally stiff and it’s not acceptable anymore to have skaters who are bad very very bad matched up with skaters who are amazing! They still have amazing skaters. But so many teams are modeled after navka and kostamorov or Fusar poli and margaglio or averbukh and lobacheva. Teams aren’t equal! Russia had equal talent teams! K/p equal no? U/z?

Russia seems to have a long-standing problem of converting promising juniors into good seniors. Bob/Sol did what they could, you could argue that they've been carrying the senior dance program for eight years. The problem for them also starts earlier and ties back to my first sentence: Why does Bobrova have these ingrained posture issues? They started with Kustarova, right? Somehow her issues there were never corrected. Once she was in her twenties or whatever, of course it gets more difficult to change anything. Also, yeah that SD they had was meh. They wouldn't have medalled, but their FD was well received while the SD fell totally flat...

Same with Stepanova. I'm not sure if she hasn't got the talent or hasn't learned properly...but her issues with skating skills are being addressed now, it seems. Not years ago, when it would have been perhaps easier to undo damage. And I can see this scenario playing out again and again...good junior results, fading out in seniors because some glaring technical issues weren't addressed soon enough.

Also, they need more coaches who have a vague idea how to construct programs geared towards COP. Zhulin has his moments, though he flubs as well, but I haven't seen many well received programs done by coaches/choreographers located in Russia. At least not in seniors.

I just think a full season long program of ijs education funded by ministry would be great!

I think Krylova is promising, she just hasn't had the most talented teams yet. I fangirl over Baker but they do have some limitations. I think the Russians just need someone willing to crunch the numbers like Eteri did with ladies. Figure out what scores well. Its like the Russians are to ice dance what the US is to ladies - slow to accept IJS. The medals last night came down to technical details. I think that is an anathema to Russian ice dance.

They still live 6.0! They want 6.0 back. They think IjS is 6.0 with ijs technical elements. That’s what they think I believe: ijs isn’t about programs just adding technical elements to ice dance.
 

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