As the Page Turns (the Book Thread)

[Allskate]

Anyone have recommendations for good adventure/fantasy/detective/sci-fi/mythical/historical series or books for tweens?? One of my 12-year-olds loves listening to audiobooks. But she goes through them fast, and I need some more options for her. Nothing too adult or too serious.

I have a bunch of recommendations. These are exactly the types of books my nieces and nephew love. Depending on your daughter, some may be a little too young for her or a little too old for her. These are books my niece and/or nephew have loved:

The Keeper of Lost Cities series.

The Charlie Thorne series

The Menagerie series

Rick Riordan's books

The Origami Yoda series

David Walliams and Jacqueline Wilson are both British authors who have written some historical or history-related books for middle graders. My niece loves both of these authors. (Another British author she really likes is Gill Lewis)

These are books that I'm going to buy for them, but have not read yet:

The Ranger's Apprentice Series

The Girl Who Drank the Moon

Amari and the Night Brothers

James Ponti books like "Framed"

Words on Fire

Winterhouse

The Golden Compass

ETA: What you think is too serious or adult will depend on your daughter and you. I did not put "The Boy in the Striped Pajamas" on the list even though it is supposed to be for middle graders. It takes place at a concentration camp. My niece really wanted to read it. I didn't think it was appropriate for her brother, but agreed to read it with my niece. (I think she realized it was very sad and serious and wanted to read it with me rather than just on her own.) OTOH, "The War that Saved My Life" makes some reference to the Holocaust but it's vague and I was fine with both kids reading it even though it takes place in England during WW II and obviously is pretty sad. (David Walliams books are much more humorous). Charlie Thorne has some neo-Nazi villains in it, but I thought it was okay for me to read to both kids, and I made a point of discussing why the evil guys were evil. They both loved that book. It's kind of like a kid's Da Vinci Code, so you might think it's too violent or serious. We did have some great discussions about bigotry and Albert Einstein. I have been holding off on The Ranger's Apprentice and The Girl Who Drank the Moon, which get great reviews, because I did not think that my nephew was ready for them. Your daughter may be ready for them.

 

[MacMadame]

Eion Colfer's various series are good. Start with Artemus Fowl. And ignore that lame movie version.

There is also A Series of Unfortunately Events by Lemony Snicket

 

[mattiecat13]

I loved the James Herriot books when I was young. Also The Witch of Blackbird Pond, Black Beauty, The Black Stallion, A Tree Grows in Brooklyn.

 

[Prancer]

The Redwall Series.

The Real True Adventures of Charlotte Doyle or any of Avi's tween-ish books.

Anything by Kate DiCamillo.

Esperanza Rising.

The Zodiac Legacy.

The Last Magician

The Lunar Chronicles

Caraval

The Inexplicable Logic of My Life

Keeper of the Lost Cities

Some of these might be a little young-ish.

2020 Audie Awards for Young Adults

 

[rfisher]

I'm reading Peril by Bob Woodward and Bob Costas. Don't read before you go to sleep or you'll have nightmares.

 

[cygnus]

The How to Train Your Dragon series is fun and has a good narrator on audio. They're short, but there's a lot of them.

ETA: And the Penderwicks books by Jeanne Birdsall are a lively series featuring four sisters that she might enjoy.

Susan Cooper's Dark is Rising sequence? Or Lloyd Alexander's Chronicles of Prydian. Or Diana Wynne Jones- especially the Chrestomanci books (Charmed Life, or especially Witch week, which is set in a witches' boarding school but written several years before Harry Potter.)

 

[morqet]

Seconding Diana Wynne Jones - start with the Chrestomanci series or Howl's Moving Castle.

 

[Bunny Hop]

I've just finished Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir, who also wrote The Martian. I think I liked The Martian better, but this one has similar themes and is still pretty good and held my attention all the way through. I'm now not sure about the science in it though. I showed my ex-physicist husband a few pages on neutrinos and it took all of ten seconds for him to say "oh dear".

 

[PrincessLeppard]

Bad Art Friend

@Prancer said to put this here. Discuss.

 

[Tesla]

Bad Art Friend

@Prancer said to put this here. Discuss.

It sounds like the Midsomer Murders episode "Written in Blood," only without the murder.

 

[MsZem]

Bad Art Friend

@Prancer said to put this here. Discuss.

That one really belongs in the interesting articles thread. But it'll probably generate more discussion here, so: if this were a post in Reddit's AITA, it would be a very clear "everyone sucks here."

At least someone got a new kidney though.

 

[Prancer]

It's funny how often this has come up lately--who owns a story? How much can you use someone else's experience as inspiration for your fiction?

Unfortunately, the question is kind of lost here in the general of it all.

 

[Baby Yoda On Skates]

So it has been a long time since I was in an academic setting and claims of plagiarism get thrown out there all the time. Is Larsen lifting parts of Dorland's letter from the FB page to add to her story actual plagiarism as Dorland claimed? That part didn't seem to have a clear consensus.

Reading the different takes on Twitter was rather eye-opening, and it reminded me of another author drama earlier this year.There was an instance of a white YA author getting outed for having a mean girls slack channel that made fun of other authors, specifically authors of color. They allegedly attempted to use their influence to stop other authors from getting contracts or ahead in the industry. The perpetrator was ostracized from the community, left Twitter, and hasn't been online for about 6 months now.

If I ever get back to writing, I'm staying far away from writers groups.

 

[oleada]

I fell into a rabbit hole last night reading the Bad Art Friend and the various takes. Larson should’ve changed the letter more (and it sounds like she did eventually), but dear God, Dawn is batshit crazy. And I hope no one subpoenas my group chats because, yeah. May he who doesn’t have a bitchy group chat cast the first stone.

I’ve also read a ton of books lately but I’ll post once I’m not waiting at the Starbucks drive thru.

 

[MsZem]

It's funny how often this has come up lately--who owns a story? How much can you use someone else's experience as inspiration for your fiction?

I'd be uncomfortable if someone did that to me - it's one thing to lift minor details or draw inspiration, quite another when it's obviously based on someone's experience. Have you come across this, by the woman who was probably the/an inspiration for Cat Person?

I’ve Always Suspected “Cat Person” Was Based on My Life. Now I Know It Was.

Since I first read Kristen Roupenian’s viral story, I’ve wondered: How did she know about me?

slate.com

But the Dorland/Larson situation is even more ugly, because Larson seems to have been using her story to mock Dorland and twist a good thing she did into something else. Dorland comes across like she has serious issues, and that's putting it mildly. The writers group is

I hope none of them will ever show up on FSU.

 

[clairecloutier]

I haven't read a thing about this whole controversy and I feel like I really don't want to know.

 

[Prancer]

So it has been a long time since I was in an academic setting and claims of plagiarism get thrown out there all the time. Is Larsen lifting parts of Dorland's letter from the FB page to add to her story actual plagiarism as Dorland claimed? That part didn't seem to have a clear consensus.

It's plagiarism as far as I am concerned.

Improper paraphrasing is a very common form of plagiarism. This occurs when one lifts a direct phrase from another work and changes just a few words - and then claims the work as wholly their own.

Even if you change ALL of the words, but maintain the overall organization and general content of the original, it's plagiarism.

Of course, this isn't academia, but publishing, which is murkier. But considering some of the plagiarism cases of the last few years, I'd say this still qualifies.

I'd be uncomfortable if someone did that to me - it's one thing to lift minor details or draw inspiration, quite another when it's obviously based on someone's experience.

Yeah, most writers base their work on the characters and experiences of other people. But most writers also make a lot of changes so that it isn't quite so obvious that they've done so and the story becomes a separate entity.

Have you come across this, by the woman who was probably the/an inspiration for Cat Person?

I’ve Always Suspected “Cat Person” Was Based on My Life. Now I Know It Was.

Since I first read Kristen Roupenian’s viral story, I’ve wondered: How did she know about me?

slate.com

I haven't; I will read it later when I have more time.

But the Dorland/Larson situation is even more ugly, because Larson seems to have been using her story to mock Dorland and twist a good thing she did into something else.

As soon as I saw that Larson's first defense was that she had created "art," I knew she was deliberately dogging Dorland. But I thought so as soon as I saw the theme of the story, too.

Dorland comes across like she has serious issues, and that's putting it mildly.

She does, but if the story hadn't included her background, I would have known she was an adult who had had been neglected in childhood. I've known a lot of people like her; they are desperate for affection and approval and you can never give them enough.

But I have to say that I don't think it's all that unusual for someone to want recognition for doing a good deed. Charitable organization always recognize donations, even small ones, for a reason. Asking for it, of course, is a different thing.

The writers group is

Celeste Ng is STILL running around the web posting defenses of Larson and slams on Dorland.

 

[genevieve]

In some ways, Celeste Ng comes across the worst in the story, just because she's the highest profile writer, and there's no real reason for her to insert herself into this drama.

 

[genevieve]

I'd be uncomfortable if someone did that to me - it's one thing to lift minor details or draw inspiration, quite another when it's obviously based on someone's experience. Have you come across this, by the woman who was probably the/an inspiration for Cat Person?

I’ve Always Suspected “Cat Person” Was Based on My Life. Now I Know It Was.

Since I first read Kristen Roupenian’s viral story, I’ve wondered: How did she know about me?

slate.com

As usual, the comments section is - although I do appreciate the person who said the Slate article was more interesting than the original story (am not sure if I'll go read it).

I had some friends include something personal I'd told them about in a dance piece they created. It was a tiny moment, not central to the overall piece, and not a single person in the world would even think twice about it; I admit I had a moment of annoyance, but overall it was no big deal. If I saw something that copied specific details on my life, or was barely paraphrased from something known to be personally significant to me, I'd be pretty unsettled.

(sorry for double post)

 

[MacMadame]

It's plagiarism as far as I am concerned.

Me too. I was all on Larsen's side until that.

This is because giving a kidney even to someone you don't know isn't unique to Dorland. Even writing a letter to your recipient isn't and I agree that there is kind of a genre about these letters. I also think there is nothing wrong with writing a story about someone and not changing enough details so that the person figures it out. It's probably not a nice thing to do but it's not wrong.

Your life isn't art. The art is in the storytelling.

But taking someone else's writing and changing a few words here and there is wrong.

As soon as I saw that Dorland's first defense was that she had created "art," I knew she was deliberately dogging Dorland. But I thought so as soon as I saw the theme of the story, too.

Is one of these Dorland's supposed to be Larson? I'm having trouble following what you are saying but I do think Larson wrote her story because Dorland's FB group and other behavior annoyed her and made her want to make a point about her behavior.


As for Cat Person, I find the whole thing bizarre. Why wouldn't you change the details of the people you based on the story on? It wouldn't change the story one bit if the young woman came from a different small town near Ann Arbor and the guy had a different outfit, just for starters. Make the art house have a different name and change a few other details and it wouldn't be about her at all.

 

[Baby Yoda On Skates]

So that was my first thought too that Dorland's plagiarism claims were accurate. But then I started reading other writers defending Larson's story and wasn't sure if the rules changed.

She sounds absolutely insufferable, but generally you block those people on social media. You don't troll them with a thinly disguised short story and steal their words in the process.

 

[MacMadame]

So that was my first thought too that Dorland's plagiarism claims were accurate. But then I started reading other writers defending Larson's story and wasn't sure if the rules changed.

The unwritten rule of giving people you like a pass for behavior you wouldn't accept in strangers or people you don't like hasn't changed. I personally think that is what is going on here.

 

[Prancer]

Is one of these Dorland's supposed to be Larson?

Yes, the first one. I corrected it.

As for Cat Person, I find the whole thing bizarre. Why wouldn't you change the details of the people you based on the story on? It wouldn't change the story one bit if the young woman came from a different small town near Ann Arbor and the guy had a different outfit, just for starters. Make the art house have a different name and change a few other details and it wouldn't be about her at all.

I think that's true in this case as well. While Dorland isn't the only person to donate a kidney, why not write a story about a white man who donated something--a liver lobe, for example? You could make the same point about narcissism and race and the connection wouldn't be nearly as obvious.

You just couldn't troll that clingy, annoying woman who thought she was your friend that way.

The unwritten rule of giving people you like a pass for behavior you wouldn't accept in strangers or people you don't like hasn't changed. I personally think that is what is going on here.

I think that's true for at least some, but this has become a big issue in writing circles in the past few years. How much right do you have to someone else's story? This started with cultural appropriation, but has extended beyond that.

An example of this would be The Help. Initially, the controversy over the book was about a white woman writing about the experiences of black women and giving them a white savior. But then it came out that Kathryn Stockett's brother had a nanny named Ablene who bore a strong physical resemblance to Aibileen in the book, that Ablene had talked to Stockett about her experiences AND that Stockett had assured Ablene that Stockett would not use a likeness of her in the book.

Amanda Knox on Stillwater

 

[MacMadame]

I think that's true for at least some, but this has become a big issue in writing circles in the past few years. How much right do you have to someone else's story? This started with cultural appropriation, but has extended beyond that.

I think this is a different issue from plagiarism. I do think that Larson committed plagiarism. But she could have committed plagiarism and written the story about someone else entirely. And she could have written the story mostly about Dorland and not committed plagiarism -- say by not including a letter or by writing a different letter that was really different. So I see them as two separate things.

I don't the definition of plagiarism has changed either so her friends who are saying it isn't plagiarism are not being honest about this.

 

[Prancer]

I don't the definition of plagiarism has changed either so her friends who are saying it isn't plagiarism are not being honest about this.

Plagiarism is not all that clearcut. Avoiding plagiarism in academia requires a lot of nitpicky, exacting care and even there, you have plenty of gray areas.

But outside of academia, such issues aren't nearly as clearcut. Larson, for example, is arguing that her use of the letter is Fair Use. Fair Use laws are murky and vague and open to interpretation. I think the only reason it is a major sticking point here is that they went to court and plagiarism is the only real legal issue involved. Everything else is morals and ethics.

 

[MacMadame]

Larson, for example, is arguing that her use of the letter is Fair Use.

Eh... that's not how I interpret Fair Use. I think she's going to lose her court case.

I think typing in someone else's words and then changing them up a bit is a classic case of plagiarism and exactly what students are told not to do.

Everything else is morals and ethics.

This is true.

In the Cat Person example, the author could have easily changed even just a few details and totally obscured who she was writing about so it's confusing to me why she didn't.

But in the Bad Art Friend example, I think that would have been harder to do. You suggested that the kidney donor could be a white man but I think that would have changed a lot of the dynamics and in a way that wouldn't have made the author's point. I also think that most people reading the story wouldn't have assumed that the donor in the story was Dorland because other details were changed. So it seems okay to me. Until she stole Dorland's letter.

Even if the court decides that it's not plagiarism, I think that it was wrong ethically. I don't think that about her writing the story even if it was completely about Dorland.

 

[mjb52]

I think the issue is about more than whether it's plagiarism or not, it's about whether there is a copyright violation by using her written "published" text so exactly (a fb post counts as publication I believe). That's what is being adjudicated in court, if I understood correctly - a copyright claim. Maybe it's the not crediting part that is relevant to whether it's plagiarism?

What interests me is less the Audible story, where it seems clear-cut that Larsen messed up, than the version of the story with the paraphrased letter that is less close to the original.

 

[PrincessLeppard]

I haven't read a thing about this whole controversy and I feel like I really don't want to know.

Doooooooo iiiiiiiiiiiiit. Join us.

 

[MacMadame]

The Atlantic has an article about the article.

The Harsh, Central Truth of the Viral ‘Bad Art Friend’ Story

The main character’s flaws are a reflection of our own.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[Prancer]

Have you come across this, by the woman who was probably the/an inspiration for Cat Person?

I’ve Always Suspected “Cat Person” Was Based on My Life. Now I Know It Was.

Since I first read Kristen Roupenian’s viral story, I’ve wondered: How did she know about me?

slate.com

I remember that story! I didn't recognize the title, but I definitely remember it from the summary in this piece.

I can actually understand how something like this happened. And at least the author in this case has owned up to using far too many details from someone else's life in her story.

I think the issue is about more than whether it's plagiarism or not, it's about whether there is a copyright violation

You are correct; the letter controversy is about copyright infringement. That's how Fair Use comes into it.

The main issue you should consider is whether the material has been used to develop a new creation or whether it has been directly copied into another work. For you to escape liability, copying must be transformative. In other words, fair use can only be imputed once you have transformed what you have taken.

That is Larson's argument--that her use of the letter was transformative.