Transitions and difficult steps of top men SP (comparison)

[Meoima]

There is this article by a Russian blogger Yulena, she is very knowledgeable about FS:
http://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/dobroefk/916639.html?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

Here she compares transitions, linking footwork and difficult steps of all top men (maybe only SP). From what I understand, blue is crossovers and 2-foot skating, orange is 1-foot skating and difficult moves, grey is other types of steps and transitions.

Apparently this is the English translation of the 1st chart: https://scontent-hkg3-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=d4b21ddeda25affd42b8125bdf73b43e&oe=577E30FD

And the English translation of the 2nd chart: https://scontent-hkg3-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=6522bc67fa82dc77372382fbed328bc5&oe=57863B35

I hope some Russian posters can help with some other parts.

Thanks.

 

[antmanb]

I'm not sure how knowledgeable someone can claim to be when they have missed mohawks and choctaws from the list of turns. I'd also say toe steps should probably be added to the list as well - as they can be easily identified. While I appreciate it would take more effort analysing it would also be useful to see in which direction those transitions were done so that an analysis of multidirectional skating could be made.

I'd also be interested to hear the parameters of the analysis too - are transitions into and out of jumps and spins ignored as part of an element? What about step sequences and choreographic sequences?

It's interesting to think about certainly.

 

[Meoima]

I'm not sure how knowledgeable someone can claim to be when they have missed mohawks and choctaws from the list of turns. I'd also say toe steps should probably be added to the list as well - as they can be easily identified. While I appreciate it would take more effort analysing it would also be useful to see which in direction those transitions were done so that an analysis of multidirectional skating could be made.

I'd also be interested to hear the parameters of the analysis too - are transitions into and out of jumps and spins ignored as part of an element? What about step sequences and choreographic sequences?

It's interesting to think about certainly.

Thank you very much for your comments. Actually there are many thing more in the article, not just those chart.
Like I said, Russian is not my language so I need some help. I wonder if some Russian posters can help me with this.

 

[Meoima]

I'm not sure how knowledgeable someone can claim to be when they have missed mohawks and choctaws from the list of turns. I'd also say toe steps should probably be added to the list as well - as they can be easily identified. While I appreciate it would take more effort analysing it would also be useful to see in which direction those transitions were done so that an analysis of multidirectional skating could be made.

I'd also be interested to hear the parameters of the analysis too - are transitions into and out of jumps and spins ignored as part of an element? What about step sequences and choreographic sequences?

It's interesting to think about certainly.

She did mention mohawk (Моухок) and choctaw (Чоктау). You can see below. I think she didn't miss anything. But the language barrier is quite big for me to translate this whole.

Юзуру Ханю

Кораблик - тройка - моухок - 4S - кораблик наружу

Чоктау - моухок - шассе - тройка - 4Т

Бауэр - тройка - шассе -выкрюк - 3А - перетяжка - выкрюк

Хавьер Фернандес

Обманный через моухок - простой разворот - тройка - 4Т+3Т

Тройка- моухок - тройка - моухок - 4S

Подпрыжка - выпад - тройка - бауэр - перекрестный - перетяжка - 3А

Боян Цзинь

Моухок - 4Lz+3T

Перетяжка - крюк - перетяжка - 3А

Моухок - тройка - шассе - моухок - шассе - моухок - 4Т

Михаил Коляда

Шассе - моухок - простой разворот - тройка - 4Т+3Т

Шассе - скобка - встает на дугу - 3А

Бести - крюк - шассе - 3Lz

Патрик Чан

Обманный через моухок - простой разворот - тройка - 4Т+3Т

Тройка - моухок - шассе - дуга RBO - 3А

Подпрыжка - чоктау - моухок - кросс ролл - моухок - 3Lz

Адам Риппон

Шассе - моухок - тройка - 3F+3T

Шассе - дуга RВO - 3А

Кораблик - шассе - валлей - шассе - чоктау - шассе - 3Lz

Шома Уно

Чоктау - шассе - чоктау - шассе - простой разворот - тройка - 4Т

*В обоих случаях Шома выполнил т.н. имитацию чоктау (переступанием на двух ногах без отрыва первой ноги)*

Кораблик - 3А - перетяжка - fan spiral

Шассе - моухок - 3F+2T

 

[antmanb]

She did mention mohawk (Моухок) and choctaw (Чоктау). You can see below. I think she didn't miss anything. But the language barrier is quite big for me to translate this whole.

They are missing from the table translation in English. I assume that since there are the same number of columns in the Russian table they've been missed off that list.

I can't read Russian so have no hope in hell of reading the text. (I can't even transliterate to get names )

 

[Meoima]

They are missing from the table translation in English. I assume that since there are the same number of columns in the Russian table they've been missed off that list.

I know it might be confusing but she grouped mohawk (Моухок) and choctaw (Чоктау) in other parts of the article.
For example this is her analysis of Yuzuru's transitions (I hope I understand it right):

Spread eagle - 3 turn - Mohawk - 4S - Spread eagle
Choctaw - Mohawk - Chasse - 3 turn - 4Т
Ina Bauer - 3 turn - Chasse - Counter - 3А - Change of edge - Counter

Then again, I am not sure I used the dictionary right at all

 

[antmanb]

I know it might be confusing but she grouped mohawk (Моухок) and choctaw (Чоктау) in other parts of the article.
For example this is her analysis of Yuzuru's transitions (I hope I understand it right):

She may well have done - but if you produce a table in which the top competitors turns are summarised and counted, it seems strange to miss two turns off that list.

 

[Meoima]

She may well have done - but if you produce a table in which the top competitors turns are summarised and counted, it seems strange to miss two turns off that list.

She grouped them in other parts. As for her reason... I need some proper translation to understand why. Ha ha

 

[Meoima]

I can't read Russian so have no hope in hell of reading the text. (I can't even transliterate to get names )

Maybe you will find this helpful: https://www.tulup.ru/elements.html
Russian - English FS dictionary

 

[Deleted member 19433]

She may well have done - but if you produce a table in which the top competitors turns are summarised and counted, it seems strange to miss two turns off that list.

Technically, mohawks and choctaws are considered "steps" and not turns in singles and pairs skating (however, both steps and turns would be considered footwork transitions by the ISU). The other things defined as "steps" are cross rolls, toe steps, chasses, curves with change of edge.

Cool that this person took the time to try this analysis though!

I came up with a system of enumerating and evaluating singles transitions a couple of years ago but I've been too lazy to do too much with it since
http://fsuniverse.net/forum/index.p...transitions-with-examples.90442/#post-4127371

Note that in my system I didn't always enumerate individual simple turns and steps because I felt they were too simple to be worth counting and I had limited the total number of transitions to try to calibrate a numerical score.

 

[antmanb]

Technically, mohawks and choctaws are considered "steps" and not turns in singles and pairs skating (however, both steps and turns would be considered footwork transitions by the ISU). The other things defined as "steps" are cross rolls, toe steps, chasses, curves with change of edge.

You're right, they are considered steps. Still, since an outside mohawk and most forward choctaws are considerably more difficult than some of those turns (particularly three turns of any variety) I would have found it interesting to include them, along with the other steps you mention.

 

[AYS]

That analysis shows me that I didn't need that analysis to tell what the ranking for this was in the men's field. That said, thanks for posting, interesting to see it quantified nonetheless.

 

[Deleted member 19433]

You're right, they are considered steps. Still, since an outside mohawk and most forward choctaws are considerably more difficult than some of those turns (particularly three turns of any variety) I would have found it interesting to include them, along with the other steps you mention.

Yes it would've been interesting to see them in the table also. All choctaws are considered difficult steps by the ISU (even though some really are not, e.g., BI-FO, even for me and I have trouble with some 3-turns), while none of the other steps are considered difficult, and all turns except 3-turns are considered difficult.

Agreed with your other post that it would also be interesting to note the directions of the steps and turns. Maybe if I get really bored...

 

[Meoima]

That analysis shows me that I didn't need that analysis to tell what the ranking for this was in the men's field. That said, thanks for posting, interesting to see it quantified nonetheless.

I'd say if next season judges give Javi highest PCS just because he's 2 time WC then... there should be an uproar

 

[adelia]

I'd say if next season judges give Javi highest PCS just because he's 2 time WC then... there should be an uproar

I can think of bigger uproars than that.

 

[Meoima]

I can think of bigger uproars than that.

I know what you mean... we have 2 worries.

 

[antmanb]

Yes it would've been interesting to see them in the table also. All choctaws are considered difficult steps by the ISU (even though some really are not, e.g., BI-FO, even for me and I have trouble with some 3-turns), while none of the other steps are considered difficult, and all turns except 3-turns are considered difficult.

Agreed with your other post that it would also be interesting to note the directions of the steps and turns. Maybe if I get really bored...

I was thinking the same thing, but actually find that i'm sort of itching to try it with at least one programme.

I'm interested in hearing what parameters you'd use if you did the analysis. In the SP I'd definitely be minded to exclude the step sequence from the analysis, but having previously wondered whether i'd exclude transitions into and out of elements, i think it might be hard to draw a hard and fast line regarding where choreographic transitions begin and end and, for example, steps into solo jump begin. So maybe include everything except the steps/turns/etc that are clearly part of the step sequence.

 

[Meoima]

I was thinking the same thing, but actually find that i'm sort of itching to try it with at least one programme.

I'm interested in hearing what parameters you'd use if you did the analysis. In the SP I'd definitely be minded to exclude the step sequence from the analysis, but having previously wondered whether i'd exclude transitions into and out of elements, i think it might be hard to draw a hard and fast line regarding where choreographic transitions begin and end and, for example, steps into solo jump begin. So maybe include everything except the steps/turns/etc that are clearly part of the step sequence.

I think most analysis include everything they do on the ice except the step sequence.

 

[Fairuza]

I think most analysis include everything they do on the ice except the step sequence.

The blogger focuses on the transitions to and from jump elements. Jump elements only.

 

[Meoima]

The blogger focuses on the transitions to and from jump elements. Jump elements only.

She didn't mention step sequence right?

 

[antmanb]

So i've gone through Fernandez's SP...well that was so much harder than I anticipated

Now i'm absolutely no kind of expert at all, but when I watch a skating programme I have a feeling for when difficult turns or steps are done. I can't instantly call a bracket, counter and some rockers without looking at the feet very carefully and sometimes in slow motion, but I get a sense of one of those turns. Having started I decided to watch the whole programme in slow motion and just write down every single blade work transition I saw (I have the notes of the whole thing in order if anyone is interested I'm happy to copy and paste my notes). I will say that Javier does have several sections in this SP that have toe steps, held edges, consecutive edges with toe drags and things like that to allow him to do the upper body choreography and set the Flamenco mood for the programme and these things were done equally to both sides. He also had spread eagles, and a few half turn jumps, and jumped turns. As stated i have not included any of the steps in his step sequence but noted everything else.

What was left in terms of identifiable steps and turns were as follows:

Cross overs: were evenly matched in both directions he did 7 anticlockwise (5 forward and 2 backwards), and 8 Clockwise (all back no forward...as a by the by, if the world champion doesn't have to include his crappy side Forward cross overs, then i'm telling my coach neither to do )

Mohawks: he only executed in an anticlockwise direction - he did 8 overall, all but one of which was RFI Mohawk, and one RBO mohawk.

Three turns: he did 6* Anticlockwise (5 were LFO 3's, 1 LBI 3), and 1 clockwise (LBO3).
* he also did RBO twizzle transition into his sitspin, but as he didn't do any other twizzles I didn't include that anywhere else.

Choctaws: he only executed in an anticlockwise direction - he did 5 in total - all RBI Choctaws.

Rockers: he did 2 Anticlockwise (a RFI and a LBI) and one clockwise (RFO).

Counters: he did 1 clockwise counter - the RFI counter.

He did no brackets, loops, or twizzles (save for the one mentioned above).

So he clearly favours his dominant side of rotation and executes most of his turns and steps in that direction. If you ignore the choctaws, which we should, since RBI Choctaw-LFO 3 turn is his favourite combination and is one that you learn as the entry to every basic spin at the start of your skating career. (I am a crappy adult skater by most standards, but I can successfully complete this series of turns at speed). Then he basically did 4 difficult turns three of them rockers.

He had very effective transitions throughout the programme but i'd query how difficult they were. Leaving the strict turns/steps to one side. He didn't show much multidirectional skating. He seemed upright in most of his movements (there was very little side to side, or backwards to forward lean of the core. He did a fair amount of verticle movements (drags, squatting movements etc).

Overall I think he had great transitions, but I query whether they were particularly difficult.

 

[Fairuza]

She didn't mention step sequence right?

It seems as if that table contains more - possibly all the transitions. But only jump transitions are discussed in detail.

 

[Willowway]

I think analyses like these are wonderful for fans, skating and non-skating. I do understand the emotion side of performance in terms of the ability to express music and feeling on ice, and the less informed sides of fandom (I love her because I love her because she signed something for me once and smiled so she is a great skater).

But it all starts here, the steps, the turns, all the details which are not quads or even triples. The details deserve more of our consideration and I certainly am happy to understand them better and who uses them well. Kudos - lots of them - to our fellow fans who take time to help in that regard (doing the analysis, translating, helping the rest of us understand). And thanks for supporting the kind of debate that devoted fans need and want - it raises the level for everybody.

I would suggest that if any one of us doesn't read Russian (or the language in which an analysis is composed) we hold off with the buck shot until we do understand or it is fully translated. Asking questions of the Russian speakers here (I'm not one of them, only a smattering) is good; assuming that the author has ignored or eliminated something just because you can't read the whole of it is not fair.

Spasiba, Yulena!

 

[jiejie]

Anybody who skates even at an intermediate level, can attest to the fact at how easy it is to end up sprawled on the ice when trying to do fancy footwork. IME, those footwork falls physically HURT a lot more than typical jump falls, even if they don't seem quite as spectacular. Top level footwork executed well and especially with speed and musicality = respect.

 

[Meoima]

So i've gone through Fernandez's SP...well that was so much harder than I anticipated

Now i'm absolutely no kind of expert at all, but when I watch a skating programme I have a feeling for when difficult turns or steps are done. I can't instantly call a bracket, counter and some rockers without looking at the feet very carefully and sometimes in slow motion, but I get a sense of one of those turns. Having started I decided to watch the whole programme in slow motion and just write down every single blade work transition I saw (I have the notes of the whole thing in order if anyone is interested I'm happy to copy and paste my notes). I will say that Javier does have several sections in this SP that have toe steps, held edges, consecutive edges with toe drags and things like that to allow him to do the upper body choreography and set the Flamenco mood for the programme and these things were done equally to both sides. He also had spread eagles, and a few half turn jumps, and jumped turns. As stated i have not included any of the steps in his step sequence but noted everything else.

What was left in terms of identifiable steps and turns were as follows:

Cross overs: were evenly matched in both directions he did 7 anticlockwise (5 forward and 2 backwards), and 8 Clockwise (all back no forward...as a by the by, if the world champion doesn't have to include his crappy side Forward cross overs, then i'm telling my coach neither to do )

Mohawks: he only executed in an anticlockwise direction - he did 8 overall, all but one of which was RFI Mohawk, and one RBO mohawk.

Three turns: he did 6* Anticlockwise (5 were LFO 3's, 1 LBI 3), and 1 clockwise (LBO3).
* he also did RBO twizzle transition into his sitspin, but as he didn't do any other twizzles I didn't include that anywhere else.

Choctaws: he only executed in an anticlockwise direction - he did 5 in total - all RBI Choctaws.

Rockers: he did 2 Anticlockwise (a RFI and a LBI) and one clockwise (RFO).

Counters: he did 1 clockwise counter - the RFI counter.

He did no brackets, loops, or twizzles (save for the one mentioned above).

So he clearly favours his dominant side of rotation and executes most of his turns and steps in that direction. If you ignore the choctaws, which we should, since RBI Choctaw-LFO 3 turn is his favourite combination and is one that you learn as the entry to every basic spin at the start of your skating career. (I am a crappy adult skater by most standards, but I can successfully complete this series of turns at speed). Then he basically did 4 difficult turns three of them rockers.

He had very effective transitions throughout the programme but i'd query how difficult they were. Leaving the strict turns/steps to one side. He didn't show much multidirectional skating. He seemed upright in most of his movements (there was very little side to side, or backwards to forward lean of the core. He did a fair amount of verticle movements (drags, squatting movements etc).

Overall I think he had great transitions, but I query whether they were particularly difficult.

Whole translation of the Russian article, if you find it interesting:
http://chibura.tumblr.com/post/143787559605/my-friend-marina-has-just-translated-the-whole

Some quote about top men:
----------
Now let’s try to analyze the criteria’s for TR PCS in each of these programs: Yuzuru Hanyu in his SP demonstrates the best variety of transitions. The most amount of one footed transitions, minimum running steps and crossovers. Transitions are well distributed throughout entire program. Besides skating transitions he uses transitions of figure skating elements such as spread eagles, Bauers and half jumps”, the variety of transitions are very good. Execution of transitional steps and elements are followed by hand/body movements and are accompanied with the change of movements, balancing difficult transitions but the easy steps are executed together with hand and body movements – the difficulty of transitions is very good. Transitions are well incorporated in the program (both into elements and also difficult entries /exits) All three jumping elements Yuzuru is executing with difficult entries, 2 jumps from 3 has the difficult exit as well, the difficulty of transitions are very good. The quality of executing transitions is very good, hand movements, whole upper body and head is matching the music.

The variety of transitions of Patrick Chan’s SP is very good, balanced skating transitions and enough quantity of one footed transitions and elements of figure skating ( lunge and half jumps) , small amount of running steps and crossovers, the difficulty of transitions is very good. Execution is accompanied by body , hand and head movements, changing direction all the time. Easy steps are followed by difficult steps in a balanced way. The difficulty of transitions is good, Patrick has many transitions in his program but most of them are concentrated in the parts where he doesn’t executes jumps and he doesn’t execute difficult entries/exits. Entries to 4T3T and 3A are easy. Not a single difficult exit, Only his 3Lz has difficult entry. The quality of transitions is very good.

The variety in the program of Javier Fernandez is good. Crossovers and running steps are balanced/equal quality with one footed transitions and transitional elements (Spread eagle, turnsand half jumps), There are some skating steps that matches the character and style of music , small amount of crossovers, The difficulty of transitions is good. The execution of transitional steps are accompanied by hand and body movements with changing direction. The difficulty of transitions is good, well distributed . Two jumps from 3 (4S and 3A) are executed from difficult entries. No difficult exits. The quality of transitions is good, especially good movements with hands and head in the style of Spanish dance.

The variety of transitions in the SP of Adam Rippon is higher than medium (close to a good), Using two footed transitions and crossovers before using one footed transitions. Using good amount of variety of elements of figure skating (lunges, spread eagle, Walley, half jump non listed jump elements ) The difficulty of transitions is good. Many movements of body and hands during the execution of steps and elements, changing the direction all the time.
The difficulty of transitions is close to the high, transitions are distributed between elements which are not difficult entries/exits, only 3Lz is executed with difficult entry. The quality of execution of transitions is good.

The variety of transitions in Michael Kolyada’s SP is close to high. With the amount of the one footed skating transitions skater occupies honorary 4th place after Hanyu-Chan-Fernandez. Enough quantity of transitions, steps and elements (Bauer , Besti, half jump) The difficulty of transitions is good, enough quanitity of transitions accompanied by the changing direction and body/hand movements. The difficulty of transitions is good. Transitional elements are well distributed in different elements, part of the transitions are the difficult entries 3A and 3Lz. In entries he uses not only steps and turns but also non listed skating elements, the quality of transition execution is good,

The variety of transitions in Boyang Jon’s program is medium. He uses transitional steps , also transitional elements ( lunge and halfjump), uses 2 footed transitions, easy steps (Mohawk and Chasse), the quality of crossovers and running steps not very much, the difficulty of transitions is medium, head movements, hand /body during the execution of of transitional steps enough, transitions are executed with the changng of direction The difficulty of transitions –medium transitional elements are distributed between elements and they are not included in difficult entries/exits, the entries on jumping elements are easy, except 3A (Here he surprises pleasantly). The quality of executing transitions is medium, but young man is trying.

The variety of transitions in Shoma Uno’s program is medium, using 2 footed transitions, big amount of running steps and crossovers, combining rare transitions for changing the direction for example (Mohawks and three turns or spread eagles” . Enough amount of body movements, the difficulty of transitions –medium, not enough changing direction while executing the transitions. The difficulty of transitions are higher than medium, big amount of transition elements are concentrate between elements and are not included in entries/exits, the exception is the entry on 3A and exit from it. The quality of transitions is good.

Interesting observation, some top skaters are using same entries and exits of the same type of jumps, both in SP and LP (4T and 3A of Patrick , 4T and 4S of Javier) It is understandable that jumping from the same entry is easier and convenient, but on the other hand after that it is a bit difficult to speak about difficulty of some transitions in both programs, With the quads in sp, also difficulty of transitions before elements, difficulty and variety the most difficult program is executed by Yuzuru Hanyu, a good program but a bit easier is executed by Javier Fernandez.

 

[Meoima]

Anybody who skates even at an intermediate level, can attest to the fact at how easy it is to end up sprawled on the ice when trying to do fancy footwork. IME, those footwork falls physically HURT a lot more than typical jump falls, even if they don't seem quite as spectacular. Top level footwork executed well and especially with speed and musicality = respect.

Full translation of the Russian article analyses the difficulty of FREE program of top men at World Championship 2016.
http://chibura.tumblr.com/post/144143945205/full-translation-of-the-russian-article-analyses

Some quote:
--
From the diagram Yuzuru Hanyu demonstrates the best variety of transitions in the long program, along with many one footed skating transitions (three turns) as well using difficult turns (4 rockers and 2 counters). He uses the least quantity of crossovers, enough steps with good variety of different linking elements (2 Besties, 2 spread eagles, 2 Bauers, Pivot, loop and half axel). The variety of transitions is very good. Patrick Chan in his LP demonstrates enough quantity of one footed transitions (three turns), only 2 difficult ones (rocker and counter) small amount of crossovers. He is using all instruments of figure skating transitions (Besti, Spread eagle, 2 Lunges, Spiral, Waltz jump and 3 Hops ) the variety of transitions are very good.

If you look at the table you might have the impression that Javier Fernandez has more variety of linking elements compared to Yuzuru and Patrick in non listed element transitions as he has 9, but 7 of these elements are just Hops, Waltz and Walley, so that’s why it is not right to say that he has more variety than Yuzuru or Patrick. The quantity of crossovers and difficult one footed transition in Javier’s program are almost on the same level as Patrick, but Javier is using more two footed transitions in his steps, he also has other linking elements (2 Spread eagles, 2 Lunges and a Bauer). The variety of transitions are good.

The Variety of transitions in the programs of Adam Rippon and Mikhail Kolyada are approximately on the same level (higher than medium, close to good) enough quality of crossovers accompanied with 2 footed transitions (steps) and rare one footed transitions (three turns). Both skaters have enough quantity of other linking elements (Adam has more): Spiral, Spread eagle, Bauer and 4 Besti are used by Kolyada. Bauer, Lunge, 2 Spread eagles, Walley, loop and 4 hops are included in Adam’s LP.

Boyang and Shoma use more 2 footed transitions, mostly they use steps as the linking elements along with crossovers. If we compare the variety of their linking elements, it is very difficult to say which has better variety in their Long programs. In his program Boyang has a bit more crossovers, and Shoma has just a tiny bit more one footed transitions (12 by Shoma and 9 by Boyang). Both programs have enough variety in terms of linking elements: 2 Lunges, 2 Bauers, Pivot and a Spread eagle (short one) and 2 Hops for Boyang, Bauer, Spread eagle, 2 pivots, loop and hitch kick for Shoma. The variety in both programs is medium.