Chinese Skating News, Pt. 3: A long & winding road to Beijing 2022

[mattiecat13]

Seeing Shen/Zhao win gold at Worlds in 2003 and how happy it made Bin Yao is one of my top three skating memories. It saddens me that they have damaged the Chinese skating program Bin Yao worked so hard to build.

Was it due to ignorance, incompetence or both?

 

[Gris]

I think they are ignorant, incompetent, but most importantly, corrupt and self-serving. Like I don't even think their hearts are in the right place.

 

[VGThuy]

Can someone explain to me what Shen/Zhao did?

 

[gk_891]

Can someone explain to me what Shen/Zhao did?

I am also curious about this

 

[On My Own]

Though I will agree that the Super Slam thing is just a bunch of fans who prop up shit that no actual skaters care about, the Ultra-C element term has a fun history. Back in the day for gymnastics, pre-1976 or so, the max score an element could get was a C. To differentiate the skills that were supremely more difficult but not valued as such, the term Ultra-C was invented in the USSR to highlight those special skills (at the time and throughout the 70s, 80s, and early 90s, the Soviets loved going beyond the required stuff to showcase their dominance). I guess it stuck around since then to use for skills with difficulty that are out of the ordinary in both sports.

Was it from USSR? Admittedly, I can only find a wikipedia page with the history for it, and it says it was originated in Japan.

Similarly, the citations on the super slam/grand slam indicate that grand slam was first used by CNN for Yuna Kim. And super slam apparently originated on sina sports, for Virtue and Moir. Nothing wrong with using fan terminology, in my book, anyway, but these come from sports reports, and have apparently also been used by the ISU and IOC themselves by now.

 

[pachelbel]

Was it from USSR? Admittedly, I can only find a wikipedia page with the history for it, and it says it was originated in Japan.

Similarly, the citations on the super slam/grand slam indicate that grand slam was first used by CNN for Yuna Kim. And super slam apparently originated on sina sports, for Virtue and Moir, actually. Nothing wrong with using fan terminology, in my book, anyway.

You might be right about that! Originated in Japan (which makes sense as they dominated throughout the 70s!), and picked up by the Russians!

 

[On My Own]

Can someone explain to me what Shen/Zhao did?

The one major thing I can think of is the Yu Xiaoyu/Jin Yang split, and all the constant rumours that they're going to break up pairs and rematch instead of letting them build up, which is certainly not an understandable strategy if true.

Mind you, some really are rumours... I am pretty sure I read one in which Wenjing was going to be paired with Huang Yihang in 2018-19 (... when he was still a junior... and she and Cong had just won an OSM).

It is semi-official that CFSA is already dissolved.
The body of running Figure skating teams and events will go back to CSA(The one running the Short track and speed skating in China).

Is this supposed to be better? How was it when CSA ran it?

 

[clairecloutier]

…. and all the constant rumours that they're going to break up pairs and rematch instead of letting them build up, which is certainly not an understandable strategy if true.

I don’t think these are rumors. This is pretty much what’s been happening, it seems, with all the pairs below P/J and S/H, for some time now.

I’ll be sad if P/J retire, but I can understand why they would, they’ve been competing for a long time already (counting their previous partnerships). In fall 2019, I heard a rumor that Peng supposedly had some pretty serious issues with both her feet. I don’t know if that was true or not, or if so, what her current status is.

@raruki, is there ever any press coverage in China on the overall state of the Chinese pairs program and how it’s declined under Zhao?

 

[On My Own]

I don’t think these are rumors. This is pretty much what’s been happening, it seems, with all the pairs below P/J and S/H, for some time now.

I consider them rumours, because I don't know what is happening behind the scenes. If the pair was working well together (which isn't just about competitive results) and still got split up, it's not a good look. But I genuinely don't know.

 

[bcash]

Yeah, from another sport. Just like the whole "Super Slam" thing is from another sport. Ultra-C isn't a term used in the rest of the skating world.

No one in tennis uses “super slam” as a term for anything either. So it’s really just a Fanyu thing I guess.

I’m interested in learning more about the successes and failures of Zhao as a coach as well, to have a more balanced picture. Shen is not in any official capacity on the coaching team right? I haven’t heard/read about any specific missteps but the lack of emerging talent is a bit puzzling.

 

[feraina]

Both S/H and Y/J came from the Harbin school run by Yao Bin’s former partner - I can’t remember her name and Sui’s Wikipedia page doesn’t mention her at all, weirdly. Her students were doing really well on the Junior Circuit and then they would get recruited to the national training center in Beijing. I don’t know if her school got defunded or she retired or something, but that talent stream seems to have dried up?

I mean one can’t say S/Z are entirely incompetent. They managed to produce another OGM after all. But it’s unfortunate they couldn’t produce more promising young pairs. On the other hand it wasn’t as though Yao Bing managed to coach many pairs either. He only had basically three and he had more time coaching. Maybe there just isn’t a large talent pool in China.

 

[On My Own]

Both S/H and Y/J came from the Harbin school run by Yao Bin’s former partner - I can’t remember her name and Sui’s Wikipedia page doesn’t mention her at all, weirdly. H

Luan Bo.

 

[Karen-W]

I mean one can’t say S/Z are entirely incompetent. They managed to produce another OGM after all. But it’s unfortunate they couldn’t produce more promising young pairs. On the other hand it wasn’t as though Yao Bing managed to coach many pairs either. He only had basically three and he had more time coaching. Maybe there just isn’t a large talent pool in China.

Well, how much credit can they really be given for S/H? They were already WJC by the time S/Z finally retired in 2010. And they didn't switch to Zhao until they were done with their run on the WJC titles. I'm not sure how much Hongbo really did to develop them. And he certainly hasn't developed any pairs since them.

With a population the size of China, you'd think the talent pool would be limitless, especially for a sport that has produced so many Olympic medalists and, now, two Olympic champions.

 

[skatfan]

Well, how much credit can they really be given for S/H? They were already WJC by the time S/Z finally retired in 2010. And they didn't switch to Zhao until they were done with their run on the WJC titles. I'm not sure how much Hongbo really did to develop them. And he certainly hasn't developed any pairs since them.

With a population the size of China, you'd think the talent pool would be limitless, especially for a sport that has produced so many Olympic medalists and, now, two Olympic champions.

Sounds like funding at the developmental level is missing. China has huge numbers of children in artistic gymnastics for example.

It will be sad if no pairs come up after S/H.

 

[raruki]

Both S/H and Y/J came from the Harbin school run by Yao Bin’s former partner - I can’t remember her name and Sui’s Wikipedia page doesn’t mention her at all, weirdly.

S/H's previous coach was Luan Bo when they were in junior.
Luan Bo had kept producing many promising young pairs skaters for many years, but her training method was highly questionable. Most of her skaters tried quad throw and quad twist before puberty including Ding Yang/Ren Zhongfei, Yu Xiaoyu/Jin Yang, and Sui/Han. The reason why S/H keep injured all the time is because they were overtrained by her with too many quads throw and quads twists. Physically, the way she trained was fundamentally hurting S/H.
Having said that, She was still a coach with prestige in China. When she retired, she has left around 7 and 8 junior pairs to Shen and Zhao. BUT Shen and Zhao destroyed them totally, TOTALLY. Only Yang Yongchao has survived.

 

[raruki]

Luan Bo had kept producing many promising young pairs skaters for many years, but her training method was highly questionable. Most of her skaters tried quad throw and quad twist before puberty including Ding Yang/Ren Zhongfei, Yu Xiaoyu/Jin Yang, and Sui/Han. The reason why S/H keep injured all the time is because they were overtrained by her with too many quads throw and quads twists. Physically, the way she trained was fundamentally hurting S/H.

The training method is indeed questionable, but the coaches from that generation in China, both summer sport and winter sport, thought that if they wanted to break the monopoly of the dominated countries in their sports, they had to pursue the difficulty.

 

[bcash]

Sounds like funding at the developmental level is missing. China has huge numbers of children in artistic gymnastics for example.

It will be sad if no pairs come up after S/H.

This is my feeling as well. Skating is still a lot more expensive, as in most countries, than artistic gymnastics.

Funny how after I visited this thread, a non-skating-fan friend forwarded me a long blog post about S/Z's missteps as coaches and strategists --- I haven't read it but the author didn't claim everything in that post to be known facts...just that there's "enough evidence" for all things listed.

 

[bcash]

Maybe this has been addressed, but I just watched S/H's 2010 Skate America performance that someone shared on Twitter yesterday. The on-screen info showed her to be 16. But She's listed as 26 at these Games. Was there an age-alteration issue as well with them?

 

[skatingguy]

Maybe this has been addressed, but I just watched S/H's 2010 Skate America performance that someone shared on Twitter yesterday. The on-screen info showed her to be 16. But She's listed as 26 at these Games. Was there an age-alteration issue as well with them?

I looked at several videos of them from 2010 Skate America but the info graphic wasn't legible because of the graphics laid over top the broadcast. This video is from 2010 Cup of China & shows her as age 15.

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

www.youtube.com

 

[bcash]

I looked at several videos of them from 2010 Skate America but the info graphic wasn't legible because of the graphics laid over top the broadcast. This video is from 2010 Cup of China & shows her as age 15.

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

www.youtube.com

Ah okay maybe I misread the info on that SKAM video, which wasn't very high resolution.

 

[On My Own]

Funny how after I visited this thread, a non-skating-fan friend forwarded me a long blog post about S/Z's missteps as coaches and strategists --- I haven't read it but the author didn't claim everything in that post to be known facts...just that there's "enough evidence" for all things listed.

Could you share?

 

[livetoskate]

What about Chen Lu? Is her skating school respected in China and developing any promising skaters? Does her daughter show signs of success? It's weird that she and Denis Petrov were such successful skaters (esp Chen Lu) but we don't hear anything about them.

 

[Rafter]

Maybe this has been addressed, but I just watched S/H's 2010 Skate America performance that someone shared on Twitter yesterday. The on-screen info showed her to be 16. But She's listed as 26 at these Games. Was there an age-alteration issue as well with them?

Wouldn’t be the first time China has played around with athletes ages.

 

[Gris]

What about Chen Lu? Is her skating school respected in China and developing any promising skaters? Does her daughter show signs of success? It's weird that she and Denis Petrov were such successful skaters (esp Chen Lu) but we don't hear anything about them.

As much as I respect her skating career, she now employs edit: used to employ a convicted child sexual abuser (Genrikh Sretenski) so I hope no skaters would go to her school, sorry.

(Sretenski choreographed a program for Xiangyi An some time ago and is probably working with other Chinese skaters too.)

ETA: I just checked twice: Sretenski was invited to China by Lu Chen in 2015 and actually moved from her rink to another rink in China in 2018 so I corrected the post above. I guess it makes my perception of Lu a bit better? But still it doesn't give me much confidence about her judgement...

 

[bcash]

Could you share?

Sure.

Could you share?

I haven’t really followed Chinese skating for the past two cycles so I can’t speak to the validity or merit of these alleged missteps.

郭嘉的花样滑冰往事【整理勘误完全版】

最全整理花样滑冰郭嘉往事。有夫妻店、有归化、有遗憾和错过。本文共计12671字，预计阅读时间：30分钟。

mp.weixin.qq.com

 

[On My Own]

I haven’t really followed Chinese skating for the past two cycles so I can’t speak to the validity or merit of these alleged missteps.

Thanks. I was following it closely this cycle, but I tend not to keep up with the rumours too much (for any national team)... I find that it's mostly fan theories, and "insider talk", none of which I care to believe tbh.

 

[Kateri]

Sure.

I haven’t really followed Chinese skating for the past two cycles so I can’t speak to the validity or merit of these alleged missteps.

郭嘉的花样滑冰往事【整理勘误完全版】

最全整理花样滑冰郭嘉往事。有夫妻店、有归化、有遗憾和错过。本文共计12671字，预计阅读时间：30分钟。

mp.weixin.qq.com

Observations so far:

1. Google translate does pretty well overall, given it often struggles with Mandarin. The blistering snark definitely comes across even in translation!
2. I'm left even more confused as to the Yu/Jin split, as there seem to be two different rumours, one saying Jin was complicit in the plan, as Yu was getting too tall for him, and another saying they waited till he was out of the country, before forcing her to agree to a split, leaving him totally out of the loop.
3. Brian Orser is called Uncle BO and this is hilarious to me.

 

[kwanfan1818]

2. I'm left even more confused as to the Yu/Jin split, as there seem to be two different rumours, one saying Jin was complicit in the plan, as Yu was getting too tall for him,

He really wouldn't have had much choice, since He-Zhang was the top dog and was going to get what he wanted, with Zhao's backing.

Everyone assumed he was as bereft by the breakup as Yu was, but had no power to make a difference; some even thought he'd tried to fight it unsuccessfully. It came out later (long before the post from the link) that he wanted the change. That he was happy about it didn't mean he had any power, at least over Yu/Zhang's pairing: the only pairing he could have influenced was his with Peng: whether he'd skate with her or suffer the consequences of trying to retire.

 

[Kateri]

Sure.

I haven’t really followed Chinese skating for the past two cycles so I can’t speak to the validity or merit of these alleged missteps.

郭嘉的花样滑冰往事【整理勘误完全版】

最全整理花样滑冰郭嘉往事。有夫妻店、有归化、有遗憾和错过。本文共计12671字，预计阅读时间：30分钟。

mp.weixin.qq.com

The autotranslate gets a bit weird, am I interpreting correctly that, according to rumour, Shen/Zhao tried to break up Wang/Liu, and make Liu skate with the niece of a Chinese judge, but when they applied to IAM for external training with ice dance, IAM insisted that Wang/Liu not be broken up, or they wouldn't help, and that's the only thing that saved Wang/Liu? (and the judge's niece is presumably Chen of Chen/Sun?)

 

[livetoskate]

As much as I respect her skating career, she now employs edit: used to employ a convicted child sexual abuser (Genrikh Sretenski) so I hope no skaters would go to her school, sorry.

(Sretenski choreographed a program for Xiangyi An some time ago and is probably working with other Chinese skaters too.)

ETA: I just checked twice: Sretenski was invited to China by Lu Chen in 2015 and actually moved from her rink to another rink in China in 2018 so I corrected the post above. I guess it makes my perception of Lu a bit better? But still it doesn't give me much confidence about her judgement...

Thanks for the information. His name sounded familiar, but I had no idea he was involved with this crime against his 16-year old student. Gross.... Hearing this does make me lose respect for Chen Lu.

Figure skating coach pleads guilty to reduced charge

LAKE PLACID — A figure skating coach accused of sexually abusing a 16-year-old girl has pleaded guilty to a reduced charge. Genrikh Sretenski, 50, of Clarksville, Md., appeared in Essex County Court in Elizabethtown Thursday and entered a guilty plea on the charge of endangering the welfare of...

www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com