Why isn't Zhulin being banned?

[Trillian]

This may also give way to same sex pairs.

Could in theory. There’s a pretty narrow range of physical characteristics for skaters who tend to be successful at the highest levels of pairs skating, and statistically, one set of characteristics is more common in people who identify as women and the other set of characteristics is more common in people who identify as men. And there are still not a lot of out trans and non-binary people in skating. (Nor will there be any time soon; this thread alone is a proof that we’ve got a long way to go to make the sport more inclusive.) So on a practical level, I wouldn’t expect elite pairs skating to look a whole lot different even if the language in the rule books is modernized.

 

[overedge]

I don't think same sex pairs are going to happen for the ISU competitions, nor are they going to change the "man/woman" language any time soon.

I was looking at the ISU pairs rules, and most of the general rules for lifts, throws, etc. don't explicitly say that the man lifts and throws the woman. The references to gender are in the descriptions of the elements themselves, such as what the man can do to "assist" the woman in a lift entry. I agree that it will be a while before the "man/woman" references in the definition of pairs will change, but in the meantime the ISU could change those gendered references in the elements to e.g. "the lifting partner" or "the throwing partner".

ETA: And then there could be more creative elements like this: https://youtu.be/ZSxXABXBpJM?t=129

 

[Karen-W]

If Leduc even gets featured news in Breitbart or Fox, He wouldnt be praised at all.

His support is not Universal, sorry.

Well, that's assuming that Breitbart or Fox would ever cover figure skating - they don't. Further, as long as LeDuc isn't taking away a chance for a straight woman to compete in her chosen sport, he probably wouldn't attract their attention. There are a lot of other more obvious, easy options for them to use in the gender/sexuality science political debate. But, good on you for trying to take a lame swipe at those news outlets.

 

[On My Own]

I was looking at the ISU pairs rules, and most of the general rules for lifts, throws, etc. don't explicitly say that the man lifts and throws the woman. The references to gender are in the descriptions of the elements themselves, such as what the man can do to "assist" the woman in a lift entry. I agree that it will be a while before the "man/woman" references in the definition of pairs will change, but in the meantime the ISU could change those gendered references in the elements to e.g. "the lifting partner" or "the throwing partner".

ETA: And then there could be more creative elements like this: https://youtu.be/ZSxXABXBpJM?t=129

Pairs can still do those moves as transitions, but they don't and probably won't because the men tend to be much larger (because they need to throw).

I don't think the woman becoming the "throwing partner" is likely in a Female/Male Pair. I think the presence of throws (and the necessary quality/difficulty associated with them) sets it apart from how ice dance can be reformulated, because the bodily requirements on an average become different.

Personally, I am fine with the gendered requirements in ISU-sanctioned Pairs (not so much in Ice Dance, where I think it's a lot more restrictive on the creative aspects). I just don't think anyone should be calling someone else a "freak".

 

[bcash]

If Leduc even gets featured news in Breitbart or Fox, He wouldnt be praised at all.

His support is not Universal, sorry.

Why does "universal" support mean anything in this discussion? It's natural we give support to people who are being unfairly discriminated, which by definition means there are a lot of unenlightened, bigoted ones who don't "support" them.

Further, lol@citing B or F for legitimacy.

 

[love_skate2011]

Well, that's assuming that Breitbart or Fox would ever cover figure skating - they don't. Further, as long as LeDuc isn't taking away a chance for a straight woman to compete in her chosen sport, he probably wouldn't attract their attention. There are a lot of other more obvious, easy options for them to use in the gender/sexuality science political debate. But, good on you for trying to take a lame swipe at those news outlets.

just saying his support isn't paramount even in the US. In YouTube comments I've read even with the downvote removal by liberal bigtech censorship.

 

[Trillian]

Well, that's assuming that Breitbart or Fox would ever cover figure skating - they don't. Further, as long as LeDuc isn't taking away a chance for a straight woman to compete in her chosen sport, he probably wouldn't attract their attention.

*they

And if Timothy does get a lot of mainstream media coverage during the Olympics, it will include negative attention from the more conservative media outlets.

There are a lot of other more obvious, easy options for them to use in the gender/sexuality science political debate. But, good on you for trying to take a lame swipe at those news outlets.

Another fantastic option would be for those media outlets to just let people live as their authentic selves and not have an opinion on it, instead of “using” their gender identity and/or sexual orientation in a “political debate.”

 

[Trillian]

just saying his support isn't paramount even in the US. In YouTube comments I've read even with the downvote removal by liberal bigtech censorship.

*their

And wait… there are people in the world and even in the US who say terrible things about the LGBTQ community in anonymous internet forums?! Well. This is shocking new information.

 

[skateboy]

If Leduc even gets featured news in Breitbart or Fox, He wouldnt be praised at all.

His support is not Universal, sorry.

I have no idea what stance you're trying to take here.

Transphobia, maybe?

 

[overedge]

Pairs can still do those moves as transitions, but they don't and probably won't because the men tend to be much larger (because they need to throw).

I don't think the woman becoming the "throwing partner" is likely in a Female/Male Pair. I think the presence of throws (and the necessary quality/difficulty associated with them) sets it apart from how ice dance can be reformulated, because the bodily requirements on an average become different.

Personally, I am fine with the gendered requirements in ISU-sanctioned Pairs (not so much in Ice Dance, where I think it's a lot more restrictive on the creative aspects). I just don't think anyone should be calling someone else a "freak".

I think removing the gender-specific references in the rules would open up more possibilities, even for the vast majority of the couples where the woman would never be able to lift or throw the man. At least it might encourage skaters, coaches and choreographers to consider other possibilities.

And believe me, I am not posting any of these thoughts in support of calling anyone a "freak".

 

[VGThuy]

All I’m saying is that I can see someone with say Jimmy Ma’s build being lifted and thrown by some one with say Brian Johnson’s build. Removing gender language in pairs may allow that to happen. For women to do the lifting, figure skating needs to welcome and be more inclusive to bigger women the way it found a way to let bigger guys have a career through pairs and tall skaters of all genders through ice dance. This is one reason I’m all for synch skating if it became co-Ed and encouraged teams of diverse builds and heights to do different shapes and lifts and such because it’s another avenue for more people to participate in and continue skating even if I personally think synch skating is boring.

 

[maatTheViking]

I’m in awe of the gymnastics discipline Acrobatic Gymnastics which involves balance / lifts / tumbling of groups of pairs. I think there are different specific compositions (3 women or 4 men or a mixed pair etc), but it could easily be a coed group of any composition?
The range of human body types is quite wide, and there are no reason gender should determine which partner does what in a figure skating pair; a team would likely always be a larger and smaller person to do the tricks.

 

[VGThuy]

If Leduc even gets featured news in Breitbart or Fox, He wouldnt be praised at all.

His support is not Universal, sorry.

Yeah well, Breitbart and Fox News are stuck in the Lochner era. There are people out there who haven't accepted that the South lost the Civil War and we're living in the 21st Century. So what? The world is moving fast and sort of repeating itself. You think the 1920s were wild with the way it challenged gender roles, styles, and upended "morality" with its jazz and liquor, wait till you see what the 21st Century version is going to look like. I for one am waiting for the 21st Century version of the New Deal to happen. I bet it's gonna be wild and blow your mind!

Face it, this is 1922 2022!

There are those
I suppose
Think we're mad
Heaven knows
The world has gone
To rack and to ruin

What we think is chic, unique and quite adorable
They think is odd and Sodom and Gomorrah-ble

But the fact is
Everything today is thoroughly modern
Check your personality
Everything today makes yesterday slow
Better face reality

It's not insanity
Says vanity fair
In fact, it's stylish
To raise your skirts and bob your hair.

In a rumble seat, the world is so cozy
If the boy is kissable
And that tango dance they wouldn't allow
Now is quite permissable

Goodbye, good, goody girl
I'm changing and how
So beat the drums 'cause here comes
Thoroughly modern Millie now!

Everything today is thoroughly modern
Bands are getting jazzier
Everything today is starting to go
Cars are getting snazzier

Men say it's criminal what women'll do
What they're forgetting is, this is 1922

Have you seen the way they kiss in the movies
Isn't it delectable?
Painting lips and pencil-lining your brow
Now is quite respectable

Goodbye, good, goody girl
I'm changing and how
So beat the drums, 'cause here comes
Thoroughly modern Millie now!

But the fact is
Everything today is thoroughly modern
Check your personality
Everything today makes yesterday slow
Better face reality

It's not insanity
Says Buzzfeed, TikTok, and the Twitter convo square
In fact, it's stylish
To respect people's pronouns and advocate for opportunities to be fair!

Incels and anonymous commenters on the Internet will say
It's criminal with those SJWs with pink hair will do
But in fact, they're forgetting that this is 2022!

Goodbye, good, goody Pairs Boy
I'm finally going to be myself, starting right now!
So play those DJ remixes and covers of 20th century pop songs, 'cause here comes
Thoroughly modern Timothy now!

 

[overedge]

This is one reason I’m all for synch skating if it became co-Ed and encouraged teams of diverse builds and heights to do different shapes and lifts and such because it’s another avenue for more people to participate in and continue skating even if I personally think synch skating is boring.

Not sure what you mean by "if" synchro became co-ed. It already is, or it can be. There are men on some very high level synchro teams - it's not 50/50 but men are allowed to participate on teams where most of the other skaters are women.

There was a male skater on the team that won synchro worlds in 2015: https://www.thespec.com/sports/2015...an-among-women-at-synchro-skating-worlds.html

 

[love_skate2011]

Foxnews is sti

Yeah well, Breitbart and Fox News are stuck in the Lochner era. There are people out there who haven't accepted that the South lost the Civil War and we're living in the 21st Century. So what? The world is moving fast and sort of repeating itself. You think the 1920s were wild with the way it challenged gender roles, styles, and upended "morality" with its jazz and liquor, wait till you see what the 21st Century version is going to look like. I for one am waiting for the 21st Century version of the New Deal to happen. I bet it's gonna be wild and blow your mind!

Face it, this is 1922 2022!



But the fact is
Everything today is thoroughly modern
Check your personality
Everything today makes yesterday slow
Better face reality

It's not insanity
Says Buzzfeed, TikTok, and the Twitter convo square
In fact, it's stylish
To respect people's pronouns and advocate for opportunities to be fair!

Incels and anonymous commenters on the Internet will say
It's criminal with those SJWs with pink hair will do
But in fact, they're forgetting that this is 2022!

Goodbye, good, goody Pairs Boy
I'm finally going to be myself, starting right now!
So play those DJ remixes and covers of 20th century pop songs, 'cause here comes
Thoroughly modern Timothy now!

isnt Fox News the most watched American news media. CNN views are tanking like 200,000 per views only as per brietbart

 

[Karen-W]

Yeah well, Breitbart and Fox News are stuck in the Lochner era. There are people out there who haven't accepted that the South lost the Civil War and we're living in the 21st Century. So what? The world is moving fast and sort of repeating itself. You think the 1920s were wild with the way it challenged gender roles, styles, and upended "morality" with its jazz and liquor, wait till you see what the 21st Century version is going to look like. I for one am waiting for the 21st Century version of the New Deal to happen. I bet it's gonna be wild and blow your mind!

Face it, this is 1922 2022!



But the fact is
Everything today is thoroughly modern
Check your personality
Everything today makes yesterday slow
Better face reality

It's not insanity
Says Buzzfeed, TikTok, and the Twitter convo square
In fact, it's stylish
To respect people's pronouns and advocate for opportunities to be fair!

Incels and anonymous commenters on the Internet will say
It's criminal with those SJWs with pink hair will do
But in fact, they're forgetting that this is 2022!

Goodbye, good, goody Pairs Boy
I'm finally going to be myself, starting right now!
So play those DJ remixes and covers of 20th century pop songs, 'cause here comes
Thoroughly modern Timothy now!

You know, there is a whole sub-forum here to rip on conservative media outlets. Feel free to show yourself and your lunatic rants to PI anytime now. But, I'll just point out that it wasn't the Republican party passing Jim Crow laws or supporting George Wallace, despite what Biden or any other "progressive" tries to tell you today. And, since my comment was derided and largely ignored, I'll repeat it... Fox News doesn't give two hoots about figure skating and they're not paying attention to Timothy LeDuc or the US Pairs teams.

But, frankly, it is really disheartening to read the misinformed comments about conservatives in general in both this thread and the US Men's thread. Anyone who knows my posting history here knows that I have been a fan of C-G/L from their first season and that I lean conservative in my political views. How do I reconcile these two, seemingly, polar opposite facts? Simple. I simply don't care whether Timothy is binary, non-binary or whatever the going gender terms are these days. I like the team's skating, I like their style, I like their determination, I like how hard they have worked to improve their weaknesses as a team. Nothing about LeDuc's gender matters to what they have accomplished as a team apart from pushing them to avoid "romantic" style programs, but they are hardly the first team to be less "Love Story" saccharine and more "Bridge Over Troubled Waters" two-skating-as-one.

Hate to break it to y'all and destroy the false narrative you've swallowed hook, line and sinker from the "progressives" who are actively working to divide and segregate our nation again, but, most conservatives are fairly open and tolerant of other views, whether we agree or disagree. And it certainly doesn't stop us from cheering for our favorite skater, even if we might roll our eyes at some of their social media posts.

 

[MsZem]

I was looking at the ISU pairs rules, and most of the general rules for lifts, throws, etc. don't explicitly say that the man lifts and throws the woman. The references to gender are in the descriptions of the elements themselves, such as what the man can do to "assist" the woman in a lift entry. I agree that it will be a while before the "man/woman" references in the definition of pairs will change, but in the meantime the ISU could change those gendered references in the elements to e.g. "the lifting partner" or "the throwing partner".

ETA: And then there could be more creative elements like this: https://youtu.be/ZSxXABXBpJM?t=129

It was a while ago, but Sara Hurtado and Adrian Diaz got L4 for this lift. Unless the rules have been changed, there's nothing stopping other teams from doing reverse lifts as a scoring element. I think it would be difficult to do that for pairs elements, though, other than in the choreo sequence.

I doubt we'll be seeing same sex pairs in international competition any time soon - there's so few skaters who do pairs, and it would be difficult to find a good match to be competitive with. But I hope LeDuc opens the door for more non-binary skaters

 

[Fadeevfanboy]

I used to feel bad for Usova & Zhulin, never getting the Olympic Gold, only 1 world title, missing the 94 Olympic Gold to the Russian #2 by a tenth of a point, having so many close losses in big events (Worlds, Europeans), sometimes losing on weird ordinal flips or ordinals and being dropped to 3rd from potentially 1st (91 worlds, 94 Europeans, etc..). Now I am so glad he atleast experienced that and that constant dissapointment over and over. Couldn't happen to a nastier person. It was karma getting its way, just almost 30 years ahead of time.

 

[MacMadame]

just saying his support isn't paramount even in the US. In YouTube comments I've read even with the downvote removal by liberal bigtech censorship.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. Particularly since no one is saying LeDuc's support is universal and that isn't even the point.

Isnt Fox News the most watched American news media.

Don't know, don't care. Plus, again, what does this have to with anything?

 

[Trillian]

But, frankly, it is really disheartening to read the misinformed comments about conservatives in general in both this thread and the US Men's thread.

Here’s the thing - the suggestion that non-binary people should be able to participate in sports without being verbally abused is not inherently an attack on a political belief system. It was a few posters who identified themselves as “conservative” who decided that condemning Zhulin’s transphobic language was an attack on all conservatives in figure skating. That’s… a choice. It could (and should) have just been a conversation about Zhulin. The people who drew the line from transphobia to a political belief system were the people who identify with that belief system. Talk to them.

 

[love_skate2011]

Here’s the thing - the suggestion that non-binary people should be able to participate in sports without being verbally abused is not inherently an attack on a political belief system. It was a few posters who identified themselves as “conservative” who decided that condemning Zhulin’s transphobic language was an attack on all conservatives in figure skating. That’s… a choice. It could (and should) have just been a conversation about Zhulin. The people who drew the line from transphobia to a political belief system were the people who identify with that belief system. Talk to them.

No, banning someone is just a typical cancel culture response, which is the antithesis for conservatives
Again everyone has right to free speech, fine if its against government, but why should ordinary citizens not have the right to say their views about another, especially they are from different countries.

Any defamation or slander wont apply here !

Respect Freedom, The Right to Free Speech
these values are mostly present only among Independent, Libertarians and Conservatives.

 

[Karen-W]

Here’s the thing - the suggestion that non-binary people should be able to participate in sports without being verbally abused is not inherently an attack on a political belief system. It was a few posters who identified themselves as “conservative” who decided that condemning Zhulin’s transphobic language was an attack on all conservatives in figure skating. That’s… a choice. It could (and should) have just been a conversation about Zhulin. The people who drew the line from transphobia to a political belief system were the people who identify with that belief system. Talk to them.

No, what is an attack on conservatives is the CONSTANT sniping and bashing of American political news outlets that has no place in the GSD sub-forum under the guise of Zhulin being a homophobic jacka$$. It isn't okay and, as @MacMadame pointed out, it isn't relevant to what a Russian coach/choreographer thinks about gender or sexuality in the sport. And when I politely disagreed with the incorrect assertion that Breitbart or Fox would skew this story in any way, I was told that I'm wrong. Guess what? I'm 100% positive I watch more Fox News than any other person making any assertions in here tonight and while I can't say with complete certainty that they haven't covered it, the Olympics-related news that I have heard and seen has been in relation to China's aggressions against Taiwan, the origins (and the CCP's lack of forthrightness) of the Crud, concerns about athletes safety/internet restrictions, and Chinese human rights abuses; and the news about Russia is related to the very real issue of a potential invasion of Ukraine as well as how Putin doesn't respect the Biden administration. Trust me when I say that this story is not even close to being a blip on their radar. Furthermore, they WOULDN'T cover it because it doesn't fit any anti-LGBTQ+ agenda that some of the hosts might be promoting. It just doesn't work with any narrative they might be trying to cover about how evil Putin or Xi are. So, yeah, a total non-story. Now, it might become a story if LeDuc is selected as a flag bearer, but I would be surprised if Timothy was selected for that honor - and I'm not even sure how the USOPC and IOC would handle it if they were selected since now the IOC has asked NOCs to select a male and female flag bearer. But, really, I just don't see this becoming a story that most conservative media outlets would cover.

 

[misskarne]

Respect Freedom, The Right to Free Speech

This is all very ironic considering in Russia those who oppose the President tend to get thrown out of buildings or dosed with nerve agents.

 

[love_skate2011]

This is all very ironic considering in Russia those who oppose the President tend to get thrown out of buildings or dosed with nerve agents.

Again. I'm referring to ordinary citizens, we're not talking here about government and politics !

 

[MsZem]

This is all very ironic considering in Russia those who oppose the President tend to get thrown out of buildings or dosed with nerve agents.

I think it's just a window safety issue in Russia that causes so many unfortunate falls.

 

[love_skate2011]

No, what is an attack on conservatives is the CONSTANT sniping and bashing of American political news outlets that has no place in the GSD sub-forum under the guise of Zhulin being a homophobic jacka$$. It isn't okay and, as @MacMadame pointed out, it isn't relevant to what a Russian coach/choreographer thinks about gender or sexuality in the sport. And when I politely disagreed with the incorrect assertion that Breitbart or Fox would skew this story in any way, I was told that I'm wrong. Guess what? I'm 100% positive I watch more Fox News than any other person making any assertions in here tonight and while I can't say with complete certainty that they haven't covered it, the Olympics-related news that I have heard and seen has been in relation to China's aggressions against Taiwan, the origins (and the CCP's lack of forthrightness) of the Crud, concerns about athletes safety/internet restrictions, and Chinese human rights abuses; and the news about Russia is related to the very real issue of a potential invasion of Ukraine as well as how Putin doesn't respect the Biden administration. Trust me when I say that this story is not even close to being a blip on their radar. Furthermore, they WOULDN'T cover it because it doesn't fit any anti-LGBTQ+ agenda that some of the hosts might be promoting. It just doesn't work with any narrative they might be trying to cover about how evil Putin or Xi are. So, yeah, a total non-story. Now, it might become a story if LeDuc is selected as a flag bearer, but I would be surprised if Timothy was selected for that honor - and I'm not even sure how the USOPC and IOC would handle it if they were selected since now the IOC has asked NOCs to select a male and female flag bearer. But, really, I just don't see this becoming a story that most conservative media outlets would cover.

Olympcs is not about politics its about the athletes and medals. It would be strange e for Leduc to even be selected as flag bearer that would mean sending some politically motivated message, considering He*andCain are not even close to pairs contenders in podium.

 

[On My Own]

In YouTube comments I've read even with the downvote removal by liberal bigtech censorship.

Downvotes can be abused severely, and it can affect recommendation algorithms. Have not read if this move affects the algorithm in any way, but what makes you say it's the "liberal bigtech censorship"? It seems to be an entirely neutral move, to me, because downvotes can be given to any video by any mob. Not to mention, the comment section still exists, for stating any opinion.

No, banning someone is just a typical cancel culture response, which is the antithesis for conservatives

"Cancel culture" is very much a feature of conservatives as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_censorship

 

[love_skate2011]

Downvotes can be abused severely, and it can affect recommendation algorithms. Have not read if this move affects the algorithm in any way, but what makes you say it's the "liberal bigtech censorship"? It seems to be an entirely neutral move, to me, because downvotes can be given to any video by any mob. Not to mention, the comment section still exists, for stating any opinion.

LOL, yeah right, just look at every Biden or Kamala videos, even with the removal of the downvotes they get very few thumbs up.
downvote was an expression of free speech that any sane person liked as it showed peoples discontent on propaganda etc.

Removing it was an appeaseemnt to the snowflakes and liberals who hated all their videos getting downvoted. Still there is still the comments section, I wonder how long this will last ? Its always interesting to me how libertarians, conservatives and Independents care more of these compared to Liberals who only want to see a parallel type of their own views.

 

[Karen-W]

Olympcs is not about politics its about the athletes and medals. It would be strange e for Leduc to even be selected as flag bearer that would mean sending some politically motivated message, considering He*andCain are not even close to pairs contenders in podium.

I'm not sure how the flag bearers are selected in your country but in the US, each sport nominates an athlete and then the team captains for each sport vote on the flag bearers. So, from figure skating, it is probably safe to rule out any of the Men, Pairs or Dance teams who will be skating in the SP/RD the same day, which eliminates the obvious nomines from figure skating, Nathan Chen, 3-time World Champion, and Evan Bates, who is making history as the 1st US figure skater to compete in 4 Olympics and is a legitimate medal contender. So, I could see US Figure Skating nominating Timothy LeDuc instead and they would be a worthy nomination, regardless of what you might think about any political points being made by such a nomination. But, that doesn’t mean they would be elected by the rest of the team captains - there are always so many very deserving athletes from many sports. I would think it is very cool if LeDuc was selected, because we don't usually have figure skaters as one of the flag bearers. Plus, it would probably annoy Putin and Xi, and I'm always down for that.

 

[MsZem]

LOL, yeah right, just look at every Biden or Kamala videos, even with the removal of the downvotes they get very few thumbs up.
downvote was an expression of free speech that any sane person liked as it showed peoples discontent on propaganda etc.

Removing it was an appeaseemnt to the snowflakes and liberals who hated all their videos getting downvoted. Still there is still the comments section, I wonder how long this will last ? Its always interesting to me how libertarians, conservatives and Independents care more of these compared to Liberals who only want to see a parallel type of their own views.

This is completely unrelated to this thread, but I doubt the Biden administration cares much about YouTube downvotes. Do you know who is affected by that and is useful to YouTube? Content creators.

None of this is remotely related to Zhulin or LeDuc, who are not YouTubers (and we've seen the quality of the content Zhulin creates these days).