Philip Hersh - U.S., Canada FS federation presidents should step away from judging

[overedge]

I agree with the issue about the perceived conflict of interest by having Federation presidents as judges. But when the ISU thinks it's OK to continue using judges who have been caught and punished more than once for cheating, then them ignoring perceived conflicts of interest isn't really a shocker

I'm actually more surprised that Federation presidents have time to be judges and to keep their credentials up to date, given all the other things they have to do.

And I also agree that Phil's selectivity in covering this issue is questionable. But I guess making these claims and getting attention for them feeds his insatiable "look at me" ego. Like that almost four years after it happened, he has to mention that $peedy made the "would you sooner have an idiot" comment to him exclusively

 

[allezfred]

There are coaches on technical panels in competitions their skaters are in.

There are? I'm fairly sure coaches are not allowed to judge or be on a technical panel in an event one of their students competes in.

 

[overedge]

And if Phil is reading this board, maybe he should look at another reason why federations might be using their presidents as judges - the potential shortage of judges.

It's a huge amount of time to put in the hours and pass the tests to qualify even as a low-level judge. Almost all of that time is unpaid, except for expenses. That's a major barrier for people who have jobs, families, mortgages, etc.

Also the ISU has an age limit for international judges. I think you have to start in the ISU system before you're 40 to be able to qualify to judge international events. So that disqualifies many excellent national level judges from progressing to international judging - and not making that age cutoff is very easy to do if you didn't start judging at a relatively young age.

And there may be shortages of judges even at the lowest levels. Skate Canada, I believe, is going to start letting coaches judge the lower-level singles and dance tests. This might be partly for practical reasons, because (especially in smaller communities) it might be hard or expensive to get qualified judges for test sessions. But if there are judge shortages at the lower levels, that's going to eventually translate into even fewer numbers of national and international judges, unless the qualification process changes.

 

[marbri]

There are? I'm fairly sure coaches are not allowed to judge or be on a technical panel in an event one of their students competes in.

It has happened but it's not supposed to.

 

[Katta]

It's extremely touchy and both should excuse themselves from judging as long as the lead their respective federations.

I cannot believe that they would continue to judge.

It's incredible unprofessional.

 

[marbri]

How many ISU competitions have both worked since becoming heads of their federation? Is it to keep their credentials by fulfilling a quota or is it more? I'm sure Phil will read this and has his research ready for us.

 

[MacMadame]

There are? I'm fairly sure coaches are not allowed to judge or be on a technical panel in an event one of their students competes in.

And I'm fairly sure no judges are giving out 10s and +3 GOE "like candy."

Skate Canada, I believe, is going to start letting coaches judge the lower-level singles and dance tests.

ISI uses coaches to judge ISI competitions. I have always been floored by that but there you go.

It has happened but it's not supposed to.

When and where, please?

 

[allezfred]

It has happened but it's not supposed to.

I would hope that whoever it was who witnessed that happen reported the breach of ethics.

 

[marbri]

And I'm fairly sure no judges are giving out 10s and +3 GOE "like candy."

You're right. I made it all up.

I´m not adding more than I already have because then it gets too specific and moves into naming names. I get the feeling you don't really want to hear it anyway so I'm not going deeper when I doubt your intentions.

So I guess with that we can just move into assuming everything I said is a lie and I'm just trying to stir shit up.

 

[Coquelicot14]

Will they be part of the judging panel at the Olympics?

 

[Barbara Manatee]

I'm sure Phil has an agenda but it isn't to smear V/M. He doesn't care enough about ice dancing to bother. He didn't care when the U.S. had a gold-medal contender, he certainly doesn't care now.

 

[barbarafan]

And if Phil is reading this board, maybe he should look at another reason why federations might be using their presidents as judges - the potential shortage of judges.

It's a huge amount of time to put in the hours and pass the tests to qualify even as a low-level judge. Almost all of that time is unpaid, except for expenses. That's a major barrier for people who have jobs, families, mortgages, etc.

Also the ISU has an age limit for international judges. I think you have to start in the ISU system before you're 40 to be able to qualify to judge international events. So that disqualifies many excellent national level judges from progressing to international judging - and not making that age cutoff is very easy to do if you didn't start judging at a relatively young age.

And there may be shortages of judges even at the lowest levels. Skate Canada, I believe, is going to start letting coaches judge the lower-level singles and dance tests. This might be partly for practical reasons, because (especially in smaller communities) it might be hard or expensive to get qualified judges for test sessions. But if there are judge shortages at the lower levels, that's going to eventually translate into even fewer numbers of national and international judges, unless the qualification process changes.

I suppose for tests if skating clubs exchanged with another club to do the tests it might not be bad. However there needs to be some way to get good local judges for domestic competitions. There are some really bad ones out there. Either they are corrupt or they do not know enough about skating. So far I have found our international judges to be extremely fair and knowledgeable and I am always checking the protocols of competitions and that is one thing i check. Usually they are in the middle of the scores the majority of the judges are giving.

 

[DreamsofBliss]

You're right. I made it all up.

I´m not adding more than I already have because then it gets too specific and moves into naming names. I get the feeling you don't really want to hear it anyway so I'm not going deeper when I doubt your intentions.

So I guess with that we can just move into

Respectfully, why are bloggers outside the sport expected to report on it if people are unwilling to give specifics?

 

[MacMadame]

These accusations never survive the light of day. People complain that so-and-so skater got "positive GOE from every judge" on a horrible jump and then someone looks at the actual protocols and it turns out it was one judge. Or sometimes none.

I never believe what anyone says about bad judging any more if they can't back it up with a protocol sheet.

 

[Aussie Willy]

These accusations never survive the light of day. People complain that so-and-so skater got "positive GOE from every judge" on a horrible jump and then someone looks at the actual protocols and it turns out it was one judge. Or sometimes none.

I never believe what anyone says about bad judging any more if they can't back it up with a protocol sheet.

Totally agree. I find it amazing that people will dig down into a protocol, pick out a component or GOE and then accuse the judge of bias or corruption based on that.

A lot of judges are on various committees and involved in the administration of the sport. I don't think it makes any difference if the person is a President of a federation or not. The reality is the sport is full of perceived conflicts of interest because you have a very small pool of people who are mainly volunteers who are going to know various coaches and skaters. When it comes to coaches and judges, they may have competed against each other back in the day when they were skating. The degrees of separation are tiny, usually one or two.

 

[5Ali3]

I do not disagree that a federation president judging skaters from their own federation can be perceived as a conflict of interest.

Here's the conundrum and why there's no easy solution:
The ISU has minimum activity requirements to maintain international/ISU appointments. These activity requirements can be met by judging sectional-level, national-level or international-level competitions. A federation president who is an international/ISU official has three choices:
1) Resign the international appointment, which takes decades to earn and requires the passing of a rigorous exam following an exhausting multiday course, which has very limited available slots (i.e., you give it up, you aren't getting it back)
2) Judge their own country's Nationals or Sectionals
3) Judge an international every 24 months

The ISU, in its infinite wisdom and unerring tendency to enact rule changes without considering the consequences, mandates that an official must judge the short and free skate of the same event in order to count towards activity. This means that any competition that draws the judges for short and long (i.e., several judges judge only one portion of the event) may not count for activity.

IMHO, a federation president judging their own National Championships (or the qualifier for Nationals) is a horrendous conflict of interest. U.S. Figure Skating used to have a rule that the president wasn't allowed to judge during their four years in office. I believe that rule was deleted and the U.S. Figure Skating president may occasionally judge a test session or low-level local competition, but they do not judge Nationals or Sectionals. (There's a tradition that the U.S. Figure Skating president travels to all three Sectional competitions during their four days of competition so he/she is present at Sectionals but not officiating; the executive director travels some years and not others.)

Assuming that no one will give up their international appointment to volunteer as a federation president for four years (they won't), there are two remaining choices: never elect anyone with an international appointment to be federation president, which eliminates many of the most qualified candidates in many associations (especially the small ones), as well as most of the candidates who have the knowledge and experience with international figure skating to guide an association's success internationally and to represent the association's interests* in ISU matters; or find the federation president an international competition to judge every 24 months that represents the lowest possible conflict of interest.

(*"Interests" sounds insidious, but things like the U.S. wanting to get rid of anonymous judging is an "interest" of U.S. Figure Skating. Maintaining Skate America's position as one of the Grand Prix competitions is an "interest" of U.S. Figure Skating, etc. This is a business - a weird, nonprofit business, but a business nonetheless - and connections matter, just as they do in the business world.)

Earlier this year, someone on FSU commented that Sam Auxier had judged U.S. Classic and noted that it was a "major international." That surprised me because, while it's not Podunk Open, the "Salt Lake City Senior B" (what we call it) is not a major international competition. I suppose that the creation of the Challenger Series and the prize money at the end of the Series has made the results of the SLC Senior B more important, but it's about as low-level of a competition as you can get that is 1) guaranteed to fulfill all requirements to count as activity for international appointments (including number of entries, entries from enough different countries, and officials from enough different countries, among other requirements) 2) the federation can guarantee that the federation president will be invited 3) the federation president typically has to be there anyway, so there's some savings in hotel/airfare.

Also, who is the "No. 2 official" in the U.S. is variable: the first vice-presidency rotates from section to section on a set schedule. The current first vice president is not an international official; the second vice president, who was first vice president last year or the year before, is an ISU referee and judge.

 

[Tada]

His thinking is so self indulgent and ignorant. Give the guy a sticker and pat his head so he'll go away. Russia uses presidents, spouses of high officials, has many judges from other countries that are under their influence, in the world there are judges with their own agenda for promotion and judges with a pure love of skating and humanity. He writes under the pretense that because they are a president they have some sort of bias. Regardless of country and position a judge can be knowledgeable or ignorant, filled with desire and responsibility to judge fairly or have only the mission to promote their skater. Considering the 'games' played by a Didier, an Alla, (Ala? Who was that lady in the hug in Sochi?)and a who knows who, how can anyone object to a knowledgeable person that's head of another country being on the panel? What about a country with only one 'qualified' judge judging loads of events and disciplines because their country has a skater in the competition?
Expand your mind Phil, do some research. In the mean time don't bother listening to him.

 

[Coquelicot14]

His thinking is so self indulgent and ignorant. Give the guy a sticker and pat his head so he'll go away. Russia uses presidents, spouses of high officials...

Not true, the RF presidents do not judge international competitions. As for the former president's wife, she is her own person, it's a concept we have in the country. A woman is her own person.

My question is this, will Skate Canada president be judging the Olympics? If so, Didier should too, at least in ice dance, to even it out.

(Obviously sarcasm, but imagine the drama!)

 

[Tada]

My anger got away with me. I reread the article, so it was Alla. Yes women have their own minds and in the end I could care less if a federation person or judge hugs a skater from their country. But some people regardless of sex, race or religion follow orders for what they consider the common good, as has happened for thousands of years.
The point is that if Phil condemns those from US and Canada then a full research of each and every official, specialist and judge needs to be studied for background training, friendships, professional training, affiliations, etc.etc.
But even that won't matter because some may have been raised in another country's values, aesthetics and even trauma, then taken on a new life of mindfulness, study and new purpose. I am American but have lived in several countries. There's good and bad, well meaning but easy to be influenced, well meaning and strong everywhere and the list could go on and on. It comes down to who has a high standard of knowledge and commitment to 'for the better of sport'. A president may or may not have it and the other judges may or not have it. Sometimes judges become presidents because they are so darn knowledgeable and business minded. Some because they will do a nations bidding. Nothing new there. In another board I read about some Kazakh judge with a Russian name. I don't know who he is but he's on a lot of panels. What is his background, his education? The subject intrigues me so I watched his protocols. I love the judges not being anonymous anymore because it makes it fun to study their scores. Tell me how he is not pro Russian.
Is it because his upbringing is so entwined with Russian aesthetic? Has he studied various country's aesthetic values? Does he study skating or just have an opinion and that's it? Who the heck is he? Phil opened a can of worms. Who are each and every one of the judges and officials and specialists? If you are going to attack judges because they are leaders then you must also discount anyone on the panel who is not a leader.

 

[Tada]

Oh wow, while I was writing I missed the quote 'Didier judge'.
Yea let's put on the panel toe tappers and manipulaters. Oh wait, that's already happened.

 

[Tada]

New Headline:
PHIL HERSH, STEP AWAY FROM SKATING.
Until you bother to interview people with an opposing view to your agenda, leave skating alone.

 

[Coquelicot14]

If you are going to attack judges because they are leaders then you must also discount anyone on the panel who is not a leader.

I think you've missed my point.
The problem is not her potential bias (arguably there are no truly impartial people, that's why there is a panel of several people), the problem is Leanna Caron has a high position and power. This may influence others. The only way to neutralize that is to put another powerful person in the panel, or not to let the Fed presidents judge. ( for the record, I vote option 2)

 

[Marco]

Totally agree. I find it amazing that people will dig down into a protocol, pick out a component or GOE and then accuse the judge of bias or corruption based on that.

There really is no room for discussion then if people can't query over one specific GOE or PCS because "it is just one judge" and can't query over a bunch of judges giving out 10s and +3s like candy because "the panel agrees, and who are you to challenge them?".

 

[MacMadame]

can't query over a bunch of judges giving out 10s and +3s like candy because "the panel agrees, and who are you to challenge them?".

Where did someone say that in this thread?

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask people back up their assertions. If they can't or won't, that's not the problem of the person who asked to see some evidence.

 

[Tada]

But by being a president how do we know they are not the most knowledgeable for the job. Replace them with someone equally powerful? Is power the point here? Knowledge and courage to judge with integrity what is put on the ice that day is the only thing that's important. You'd have to prove with facts the president is not knowledgeable and without integrity. And what do you do when others that are not presidents have far less knowledge, or want to prove their importance in the world, or are political animals. You make the presidents guilty till proven innocent and the 'others' worthy of sitting on the panel because they are not a president. Then add in those that have been suspended but will sit in all their glory on a panel. Then add in those with less knowledge just because they have one or two skaters in its history in the event. How much could they really know? What is it you really want?

 

[Marco]

Where did someone say that in this thread?

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask people back up their assertions. If they can't or won't, that's not the problem of the person who asked to see some evidence.

Not in this thread, but I challenge GOEs and PCS all the time and those are the two typical responses I get. I am grateful that at times there are experts here and in another places that can provide constructive explanations in general and on more specific questions I may have. People in general are nice here.

Here is another recent example I found of questionable judging: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/unbalanced-performances.102300/#post-5184971

 

[Aussie Willy]

There really is no room for discussion then if people can't query over one specific GOE or PCS because "it is just one judge" and can't query over a bunch of judges giving out 10s and +3s like candy because "the panel agrees, and who are you to challenge them?".

Keep in mind that a judge gives out over an event probably a few hundred individual marks over elements and components. There have been instances I have seen on this forum where someone has picked out one mark and complained about the judge doesn't know what they are looking at or are corrupt and that is their evidence. There are so many variables because it is a subjectively judged sport.

However I have no problem with evaluating protocols. I do it myself after every event that I judge because I want to see how I stack up against the other judges. And I do look at the protocols for many international events. I do think though when you are casting your eyes over them it has to be valid and objective evaluation and not just using it as a opportunity to b*tch about judges.

 

[Marco]

Keep in mind that a judge gives out over an event probably a few hundred individual marks over elements and components. There have been instances I have seen on this forum where someone has picked out one mark and complained about the judge doesn't know what they are looking at or are corrupt and that is their evidence. There are so many variables because it is a subjectively judged sport.

However I have no problem with evaluating protocols. I do it myself after every event that I judge because I want to see how I stack up against the other judges. And I do look at the protocols for many international events. I do think though when you are casting your eyes over them it has to be valid and objective evaluation and not just using it as a opportunity to b*tch about judges.

Absolutely. We are all human. Everyone has a different perception. Mistakes are inevitable. Didn't a judge give W&P a 0.25 for their SD IN score? (I mean, it's not THAT bad )

AW - when you judge, do you sit down with the referee afterwards to discuss whether your scores were within or outside of the corridor?

 

[Amantide]

It's extremely touchy and both should excuse themselves from judging as long as the lead their respective federations.

I cannot believe that they would continue to judge.

It's incredible unprofessional.

This. At least avoid the big competitions such as the Olympics and Worlds.

How many ISU competitions have both worked since becoming heads of their federation? Is it to keep their credentials by fulfilling a quota or is it more? I'm sure Phil will read this and has his research ready for us.

In the article he says that he has send to the officials e-mails and their answer was that they needed a couple of days to reply. He solicited them again, when he received no reply, but still nothing so far (after a week).

 

[drfj]

There are many presidents who are actually judging in ISU events,not just from USA and Canada,they are all long time judges,and I dont think that they have to stop judging because they were elected as president.