Valieva Banned for Four Years, Effective December 25, 2021

[Judy]

Their response, or lack thereof, just doesn't add up.

Imo they are hear nothing, see nothing, say nothing. Unlike other sports imo. Until they’re forced to I guess.

 

[pat c]

Their response, or lack thereof, just doesn't add up.

Technical difficulties - the abacus broke, beads everywhere.

 

[Karen-W]

The ISU isn't going to comment before or during any appeals of their funny math. Kudos to Brennan for staying on them but let's not act like the ISU's silence is due to anything beyond their lawyers telling them to say nothing.

 

[Allskate]

The ISU isn't going to comment before or during any appeals of their funny math. Kudos to Brennan for staying on them but let's not act like the ISU's silence is due to anything beyond their lawyers telling them to say nothing.

Maybe. But, I don't think the failure to provide an explanation looks good for them, including for an appeal. It makes it look like they came up with the result and are now working on trying to come up with a rationalization.

I can't think of many sports where officials wouldn't cite specific reasons and rules for placements or results. And I certainly can't think of a situation where officials have refused to explain placements because their lawyers are advising them to do so in anticipation of an appeal. Imagine if there were an extra player on the field at the Super Bowl during a play that enabled a team to score, the referee called it on replay, but they didn't change anything and then officials refused to say why. Because lawyers?

 

[caseyedwards]

If Russia opposes it more than anyone how is it pro Russia! The warfare against Russia is already done by taking away gold

 

[Vagabond]

The ISU isn't going to comment before or during any appeals of their funny math.

Huh? The "appeal" would be from the CAS decision, not the ISU's funny math.

 

[Alilou]

Huh? The "appeal" would be from the CAS decision, not the ISU's funny math.

Skate Canada is appealing the ISU's funny maths to CAS

 

[skategal]

Skate Canada is appealing the ISU's funny maths to CAS

And so is Russia.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Isn't Russia also planning to appeal the CAS decision? I'm sure they could at least attempt to show a strict procedural reason to do so.

 

[sjs5572]

Isn't Russia also planning to appeal the CAS decision? I'm sure they could at least attempt to show a strict procedural reason to do so.

I am sure they will. Russia is from the Roy Cohn school of never admitting fault, always playing victim, and appealing to the bitter end. I hereby rename Russia, Trumpistan!

 

[skategal]

Isn't Russia also planning to appeal the CAS decision? I'm sure they could at least attempt to show a strict procedural reason to do so.

I’m sure they will look to try but it will probably get thrown out.

One of the reasons the CAS process took such a long time was that every chance was given to Russia/Valieva and process was followed very closely to prevent future appeals.

 

[Vagabond]

Skate Canada is appealing the ISU's funny maths to CAS

That is not an appeal. It's a petition, which the ISU could avoid by doing its job properly.

Sorry to get all technical, but there is an important distinction.

 

[tony]

That is not an appeal. It's a petition, which the ISU could avoid by doing its job properly.

Sorryto get all technical, but there is an important distinction.

You're a lawyer. Can you point me to the specific team event rule that shows that invalidated results mean that everyone else should move up? Or the rule that deals with disqualifications from the team event?

Again, as far as I know, this doesn't exist. And it doesn't mean it defaults to rules for other events. And this is where the problem is going to be moving forward.

 

[Vagabond]

And so is Russia.

Are you sure? I believe that Russia intends to appeal the decision of the Court of Arbitration for Sport, not the ISU's decision to award it a bronze medal. There doesn't appear to be a more favorable possible result for Russia unless the Swiss court reverses the decision of the CAS.

 

[Andrea82]

Are you sure? I believe that Russia intends to appeal the decision. Of the Court of Arbitration for Sport. There doesn't appear to be a more favorable possible result for Russia unless the Swiss court reverses the decision of the CAS.

Russian Olympic Committee indicated they would challenge the change of ranking of the team event.
"We base ourselves on the fact that, in accordance with the current applicable ISU rules, the consequences of sanctions against an individual athlete, in this case Kamila Valieva, cannot serve as the basis for revising the results of the team event," ROC said.

 

[skategal]

Are you sure? I believe that Russia intends to appeal the decision. Of the Court of Arbitration for Sport. There doesn't appear to be a more favorable possible result for Russia unless the Swiss court reverses the decision of the CAS.

Their statement said that under the existing rules they don’t believe stripping one person of the gold means all persons on the team must be stripped of their gold medals and they are challenging that ruling which means they are challenging the ISU distribution of medals.

 

[Dobre]

Sounds like a brilliant argument. If we just compose our teams of mostly athletes that cheat, then we can claim the glory for our country and give the medal to the one athlete who doesn't test positive. Is that it?

 

[Allskate]

You're a lawyer. Can you point me to the specific team event rule that shows that invalidated results mean that everyone else should move up? Or the rule that deals with disqualifications from the team event?

Again, as far as I know, this doesn't exist. And it doesn't mean it defaults to rules for other events. And this is where the problem is going to be moving forward.

This has been discussed here multiple times. And there have been links to a relevant ISU document discussing the team event rules, which specifically reference and make applicable an ISU rule requiring changes in placements after disqualification. Someone posted (with no link to name) that a private twitter account suggested that the rules might have been changed by a subsequent document, but nobody has actually been able to find that subsequent document. If that document actually exists and really does change the event rules so that placements aren't changed when a competitor is disqualified, then it wouldn't be very hard for the ISU to refer to it. Or for anyone else to refer to it.

 

[Vagabond]

This has been discussed here multiple times. And there have been links to a relevant ISU document discussing the team event rules, which specifically reference an ISU rule requiring changes in placements after disqualification. Someone posted that a private twitter account suggested that the rules might have been changed by a subsequent document, but nobody has actually been able to find that subsequent document. If that document actually exists and really does change the event rules so that placements aren't changed when a competitor is disqualified, then it wouldn't be very hard for the ISU to refer to it. Or for anyone else to refer to it.

And, if no such document exists, the ISU could easily say so.

The fact that they don't do either of these things suggests that they now realize that they have been caught.

 

[ballettmaus]

Their statement said that under the existing rules they don’t believe stripping one person of the gold means all persons on the team must be stripped of their gold medals and they are challenging that ruling which means they are challenging the ISU distribution of medals.

Their logic makes no sense.

If that document actually exists and really does change the event rules so that placements aren't changed when a competitor is disqualified, then it wouldn't be very hard for the ISU to refer to it. Or for anyone else to refer to it.

Maybe they're having trouble translating it from its original Russian and getting the wording just right in English

 

[Vagabond]

Russian Olympic Committee indicated they would challenge the change of ranking of the team event.
"We base ourselves on the fact that, in accordance with the current applicable ISU rules, the consequences of sanctions against an individual athlete, in this case Kamila Valieva, cannot serve as the basis for revising the results of the team event," ROC said.

That's what they say they will do.

If they do make such a challenge, it won't be by appeal of the Valieva decision of the CAS. It will either by either asking the ISU to reconsider their decision or by filing a petition with the CAS. If they file a petition, I would not be surprised if the CAS dismisses it as an effort to circumvent its Valieva order

Let's see what actually happens.

 

[ballettmaus]

Russian Olympic Committee indicated they would challenge the change of ranking of the team event.
"We base ourselves on the fact that, in accordance with the current applicable ISU rules, the consequences of sanctions against an individual athlete, in this case Kamila Valieva, cannot serve as the basis for revising the results of the team event," ROC said.

Someone needs to explain the word "team" to the Russians

 

[puglover]

Their statement said that under the existing rules they don’t believe stripping one person of the gold means all persons on the team must be stripped of their gold medals and they are challenging that ruling which means they are challenging the ISU distribution of medals.

I am confused as to how, if they go forward with this appeal, the gold medals can be awarded to the U.S. until after this appeal is concluded? I am sure they don't have a hope in hell of this succeeding but in the rare occasion that pigs fly, then would that not end up with gold medals still being awarded to Russia?

 

[MacMadame]

Their statement said that under the existing rules they don’t believe stripping one person of the gold means all persons on the team must be stripped of their gold medals and they are challenging that ruling which means they are challenging the ISU distribution of medals.

This makes no sense. ISU didn't disqualify the team. They invalidated only Valieva's results exactly as CAS stated should happen. Once her results are invalidated, Team Russia has fewer points and therefore must move down the standings. The only way they keep the Gold medal is if the CAS decision is overturned.

I read they were going to appeal the CAS decision. This was before ISU recalculated the results of the Team event. They may have said they'd "appeal" that too but they definitely said they'd appeal the CAS decision and that is their best bet for keeping their Gold medals.

ETA I know them saying they will appeal doesn't mean they will.

 

[skategal]

This makes no sense. ISU didn't disqualify the team. They invalidated only Valieva's results exactly as CAS stated should happen. Once her results are invalidated, Team Russia has fewer points and therefore must move down the standings. The only way they keep the Gold medal is if the CAS decision is overturned.

I read they were going to appeal the CAS decision. This was before ISU recalculated the results of the Team event. They may have said they'd "appeal" that too but they definitely said they'd appeal the CAS decision and that is their best bet for keeping their Gold medals.

ETA I know them saying they will appeal doesn't mean they will.

As quoted in post 1185 Russia says that they are appealing the reranking of the teams in the team event that ISU did based on the CAS ruling.

There is very little ground to appeal the CAS decision as it can only be appealed based on CAS not following procedure correctly (not likely.)

Russia is saying even if Valieva is disqualified the other team members should not lose their gold medal.

I’m not saying it makes sense.

ETA. They could be citing track and field relay cases where runners who ran in the preliminary heats but not the finals and subsequently (years later) tested positive for drugs were stripped of their medals but the team mates in the finals were not.

The cases are not even close to being the same but who knows what their rationale is?

 

[Jarrett]

As quoted in post 1185 Russia says that they are appealing the reranking of the teams in the team event that ISU did based on the CAS ruling.

There is very little ground to appeal the CAS decision as it can only be appealed based on CAS not following procedure correctly (not likely.)

Russia is saying even if Valieva is disqualified the other team members should not lose their gold medal.

I’m not saying it makes sense.

ETA. They could be citing track and field relay cases where runners who ran in the preliminary heats but not the finals and subsequently (years later) tested positive for drugs were stripped of their medals but the team mates in the finals were not.

The cases are not even close to being the same but who knows what their rationale is?

Do we even need to try and understand Russia’s rational at this point? Their take is they are the best. They are the best at skating, they are the best at gymnastics, they are the best and tennis, they are the best at doping. Russia #1

 

[ballettmaus]

ETA. They could be citing track and field relay cases where runners who ran in the preliminary heats but not the finals and subsequently (years later) tested positive for drugs were stripped of their medals but the team mates in the finals were not.

Russia's argument is more along the lines of if a relay runner messes up the baton hand-off, the team should still finish and if they win a medal, only the runner who messed up gets disqualified but the rest of the relay team still gets the medal. (I bet the US would love that rule )

Like I said, someone needs the explain to Russia what the word "team" in team competition means.

 

[Karen-W]

Vincent has finally made a public statement on his social media and it is just as eloquent and touching as one would expect from him. Words cannot express how happy I am that he can call himself an Olympic Gold Medalist.

Vincent Zhou on Instagram: "Looking through photos from the 2022 Olympics has been difficult, not only due to the lack thereof (for obvious reasons) but also due to various memories they unearthed. Conversations in locker rooms, chatting with volunte

2,991 likes, 72 comments - govincentzhou on February 4, 2024: "Looking through photos from the 2022 Olympics has been difficult, not only due to the lack thereo..."

www.instagram.com

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

You're a lawyer. Can you point me to the specific team event rule that shows that invalidated results mean that everyone else should move up? Or the rule that deals with disqualifications from the team event?

Again, as far as I know, this doesn't exist. And it doesn't mean it defaults to rules for other events. And this is where the problem is going to be moving forward.

I`m not a lawyer. But equity is a legal principal. The courts are full of cases where strict adherance to a law is overruled by the equity of its application in a specific instance. When the application of a law has an effect outside it`s original intent, the court of appeal recognizes this and judgement is often in favor of the more equitable application. ISU rules for the four figure skating disciplines call for moving up of placements when a contestant is disqualified. The intent of these rules is to correct the result.

ISU may not yet have stated a rule for a team event; it`s a new discipline and there are probably many situations for which there is not yet a specific rule. In the absence of that, the next best thing is how it treats the same situation in its other disciplines. And that is, when a contestant is disqualified placements move up.

 

[Mafke]

The warfare against Russia

Holding russian athletes to the same standard as other countries is 'warfare against russia'?

I really don't want to see any more russian athletes if it means putting up with the massive self-pity parties and 'poor me!' whining.... so un-olympic....