Japan's Hanyu fumes at rival for 'intentional' collision

[leolion11]

I thought the main issue here would be that Denis is in the wrong and yet neither Denis nor Frank has apologised and instead threw shade at Yuzuru? Why are people still hung up about Yuzuru throwing a tantrum? Like yes that was rather uncharacteristic of him, but come on that really isn't the worst thing about this whole issue

Also, I expected more from Frank. A nice decent apology would have sufficed and yet he felt the need to defend Denis by throwing shade at Yuzuru. And he didn't even clarify that it was YUZURU's music playing so he had the right of way? What a way to defend your own skater after he did something wrong

 

[jiejie]

This is a shockingly terrible answer from a supposedly wise and experienced coach. Carroll knows that the skater in music has right of way! Denis is 100% at fault! And Denis should be aware when someone's music is playing. Is he kidding me?

I agree, I am surprised at Frank's answer--which is both wrong and unhelpful. Anybody who's skated even at lower levels on training ice, knows that when the music rotation is going, the person whose music is playing has absolute right of way for their run-through. It is incumbent upon EVERYBODY else on the ice to anticipate where the skater will be and to stay out of the way. A skater--even a competition medalist like Denis Ten--doesn't get a excuse from being vigilant just because one likes to skate in his own little world. Unless one is paying for private ice and is the only person practicing on it, one has to remain cognizant of where everybody is and who's got the right of way. This applies pretty much to every skating practice situation, anywhere in the world. It's common sense and it's courtesy.

Since this wasn't a one-off at this competition but repeated offenses by one skater towards another even AFTER the behavior being pointed out, I am in the camp that there was some intention of sneaky disruption on Denis' part. At this point in the skating season, these guys know enough about each other's programs to know pretty well where the right-of-way skater is going to be heading next. If I was a coach and Denis had been my skater and had multiple warnings then yelled at by others for being in the way, I would have pulled him off the ice and told him to wake up and shape up....or else. Certainly I wouldn't have presented to the media mealy-mouthed excuses after the fact.

My respect for both of them has dipped a bit. Yuzuru's frustrated fist-slamming into the boards doesn't cover him in glory either, but that's not the salient point here.

 

[leolion11]

Well, I guess that Frank probably didn't want to mention that it was Yuzuru's practice time because it wouldn't make a very strong case for Frank to defend Denis

 

[thvu]

I'm a bit perplexed by the negative reactions to Hanyu's anger. It was a completely natural human response, and not at all indicative of immaturity IMO. Maturity isn't the absence of anger, but the ability to let it go.

 

[barbarafan]

This is just 1 part of the video https://twitter.com/enmi_g/status/715828723916881922
It was during Yuzuru's run through, he was doing step sequence. You can see other guys skating around but not in the center. Denis kept spinning in the center and it was dangerous. It's almost a hit.
I assume Denis was in his own world and he did not notice the surrounding. But this was during Yuzuru's run though and it's dangerous. Not to mention it happened 3 times. It is easy to see why Yuzuru got scared and angry in this case, especially after CoC last season.
Yuzuru himself said afterwards he should not have lost his temper. You can see he was unease in the video.

Thank-you for the clip. Ten skates right over to Frank Carrol..Did he critique Ten's spin or tell him to knock if off. That is the million dollar question.
so everyone says Frank would never ...Frank would never.....So it is prob. not protocol to chastise you pupil in front of all especially right before his most important competition of the year but I hope there is a big sit down with Ten the minute they are both on home ice. Orrr and only former pupils of Frank would be in a position to get a feel for this.....was this part of their winning strategy?...Or maybe Frank is getting too old for this. I have no idea what is is but I just hope he does something about this (ie Ten's attitude) it will be too late if someone ends up hurt . Skating wars should only
happen when you are alone on the ice and you put down a performance that no one else can top. Any other way is cheating and is just as bad as doping.

 

[dawnie]

Having said that, I hope both of them will settle this down calmly and peacefully

And I hope you take your own advice and not pounce on every single post that isn't on Hanyu's side...

 

[attyfan]

IMO, Denis needs a check up by a competent physician. The idea that he would resort to intentional interference with Hanyu at this stage of their careers strikes me as laughable; he didn't try it with Patrick Chan in 2013, when he had a shot of winning gold. That he made the same sort of mistake three times strikes me that something is wrong: his ears aren't working (or his brain isn't processing things) properly.

 

[barbarafan]

Hanyu doesn't going around and throwing his intense look daily. I'm sure no one can live with that.
So because he is Hanyu he is expected to behave as a role model like Michelle Kwan or Mao Asada? Oh well...
And no one says he doesn't get a pass for getting angry. Many people are saying as if in his situation, getting angry is unacceptable even though he has all the rights to get angry.
Oh come on, he is no alien as people often joke.
What makes me feel funny is that people are acting as if it's wrong for a skater to get angry when he got his pass cut 3 times in a row during his own run though his own music, and on top of that, by another same skater.
Oh yes, he is expected to smile and let it go and act like a role model.

ITA...he has the right to be angry...and he is a man not a shy little teenage girl...so his automatic reaction to what he saw as blatant sabotage might have been to cross over to Ten and punch him in the face...Thank god he punched the boards instead because surely he would not have been allowed to compete if he punched Ten instead. Oh wait......was that the objective??

 

[The Accordion]

IMO, Denis needs a check up by a competent physician. The idea that he would resort to intentional interference with Hanyu at this stage of their careers strikes me as laughable; he didn't try it with Patrick Chan in 2013, when he had a shot of winning gold. That he made the same sort of mistake three times strikes me that something is wrong: his ears aren't working (or his brain isn't processing things) properly.

Interesting that you bring 2013 up. I went to a few of those practice sessions and Ten absolutely owned the ice. He came across as by far the most confident and consistent IMO while I was surprised how humble - almost apologetic in his yielding to others Patrick Chan was.

 

[MR-FAN]

Shades of all the slo-mo dramatic vids of Yu-Na's practice sessions with all the EVILLE Japanese ladies "intentionally" cutting her off

 

[gkelly]

Unless one is paying for private ice and is the only person practicing on it, one has to remain cognizant of where everybody is and who's got the right of way. This applies pretty much to every skating practice situation, anywhere in the world. It's common sense and it's courtesy.

True.

Of course, unless you are paying for private ice and are the only person practicing on it, even when your music is playing and you have right of way, it's unrealistic to expect to be able to do a runthrough without occasionally encountering other skaters in your path.

The fact that this was three occasions from the same skater in two sessions was undoubtedly frustrating, but it to me it doesn't indicate anything more than Ten being focused more on his own practicing than on what the other skaters on the ice were up to.

At this point in the skating season, these guys know enough about each other's programs to know pretty well where the right-of-way skater is going to be heading next.

I wouldn't bet on that. How many times have these guys skated on the same practice sessions at the same competitions this season? Far fewer than training mates who share ice time with runthroughs several times a week all season and get familiar with each other's layouts.

In the case of Ten and Hanyu, this is the first time they've competed against each other this year.

It's not the job of a competitive skater to memorize the program layouts of other skaters they might end up sharing practice ice with sometime in the future. They might choose to watch videos of their competitors to know what they're up against competitively. But 1) it's not a requirement; some may some may not; and 2) watching a program on video is very different from being on the ice at the same time in terms of anticipating the travel patterns/jump placements and where they occur in relation to the musical timing.

I'm a bit perplexed by the negative reactions to Hanyu's anger. It was a completely natural human response, and not at all indicative of immaturity IMO. Maturity isn't the absence of anger, but the ability to let it go.

And if one must take out one's frustration physically, hitting the board is much less destructive than kicking the ice, let alone getting into a physical confrontation with the person who caused the frustration.

 

[vesperholly]

I thought the main issue here would be that Denis is in the wrong and yet neither Denis nor Frank has apologised and instead threw shade at Yuzuru? Why are people still hung up about Yuzuru throwing a tantrum? Like yes that was rather uncharacteristic of him, but come on that really isn't the worst thing about this whole issue

Maybe because it comes off as petty whining from a skater who has had a fantastic season setting world records vs a skater who has had a pretty terrible season plagued by injury. Goliath picking on David.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

Maybe because it comes off as petty whining from a skater who has had a fantastic season setting world records vs a skater who has had a pretty terrible season plagued by injury. Goliath picking on David.

So he should be a Gandhian and shut up when he feels he is being obstructed in his practice session. At least, this will not an issue for LP practice since Ten will be skating in another group.

 

[barbarafan]

Maybe because it comes off as petty whining from a skater who has had a fantastic season setting world records vs a skater who has had a pretty terrible season plagued by injury. Goliath picking on David.

or Karma on the seasons results

 

[Meoima]

Maybe because it comes off as petty whining from a skater who has had a fantastic season setting world records vs a skater who has had a pretty terrible season plagued by injury. Goliath picking on David.

Actually, I think the reason Yuzuru got furious wasn't just because they almost collided 3 times.
In my opinion, one of the main reasons is the thought that he might be targeted by Denis (whether that feeling of his was right or it was just him being too sensitive).
You know that Yuzuru and Denis' relationship has always been quite good until...eh now. They went on tours together, they also competed along from junior for a long time. They also played goofy together many times in gala and parties.
However, suddenly he finds it so suspicious of the "near collision" and that Denis might have some bad intentions towards him... Try to image it... It's like suddenly you feel that a friend of yours (or someone you have known for a long time) is stabbing you from behind. It's not easy feeling at all.
I'm hoping this case is just misunderstanding. And I hope they both will sit down and talk properly and clear this up.

 

[DreamSkates]

Whether you agree with Hanyu's reaction or not, Ten was in the wrong, and the fact that it happened three times in two days speaks at the very least of carelessness from him. That the third incident happened after the two skaters had talked about it the day before means that Ten was aware of the fact but still did not pay enough attention. Other skaters seemed to be capable enough of staying out of Hanyu's way while he was having his runthrough.
I have no idea if Ten did so intentionally or not, of course, but I believe Hanyu had his good reasons to get angry.

I would think the skaters could ask their coaches to talk to Ten's coach, or at the least, be the one who is a good sportsman and approach Ten BEFORE practice gets underway. If several skaters say the same thing to him, maybe he'll be on the lookout. If not, they know he is the way he is, so don't expect anything different.

 

[Skittl1321]

Maybe because it comes off as petty whining from a skater who has had a fantastic season setting world records vs a skater who has had a pretty terrible season plagued by injury. Goliath picking on David.

While Ten has certainly had a rough season "David" has two world medals and an Olympic medal.

It's not like he's some nobody skater who is on a big time practice session for the first time.


That said- the fact that this is getting press is hysterical. I'm pretty sure getting cut off and being annoyed at it happens all the time. So does getting softly run into (wasn't there a picture of Javi and Max Aaron hugging each other as they caught each other in a collision.) If we were talking a Han Yan/Hanyu style collision; when one skater had right of way (there neither did- and it was a blind collision) then I could see how this was news.

 

[MsZem]

So he should be a Gandhian and shut up when he feels he is being obstructed in his practice session. At least, this was not an issue for LP practice since Ten will be skating in another group.

He should handle it like the adult and classy competitor that he is. Punching boards and talking to the media about any possibility that another skater was intentionally impeding him is neither. I wasn't impressed with how Ten handled it with the media, either; there's a time for Russian-interview honesty, and a time for saying "that's between the two of us and we've sorted it out" or some such.

And yes, more is expected from Hanyu - because he is by now a seasoned competitor, an Olympic champion and a world record holder, and he is the sort of skater people look up to. That brings with it more attention and expectations than an OES would have (though any OES who punched boards would be talked about too, I think). Put it this way: last year at the end of the WTT gala, the skaters were all skating around, and Hanyu sought out Cathy Reed and made sure that the audience gave her a nice farewell in her final event before she retired. It was a sweet and classy act of a real champion - this is the standard I expect from him, and I suspect that's what he expects of himself.

I hope that Hanyu and Ten sort this out like the adults and classy skaters that I know them both to be.

 

[Similie]

He should handle it like the adult and classy competitor that he is. Punching boards and talking to the media about any possibility that another skater was intentionally impeding him is neither. I wasn't impressed with how Ten handled it with the media, either; there's a time for Russian-interview honesty, and a time for saying "that's between the two of us and we've sorted it out" or some such.

And yes, more is expected from Hanyu - because he is by now a seasoned competitor, an Olympic champion and a world record holder, and he is the sort of skater people look up to. That brings with it more attention and expectations than an OES would have (though any OES who punched walls would be talked about too, I think). Put it this way: last year at the end of WTT gala, the skaters were all skating around, and Hanyu sought out Cathy Reed and made sure that the audience gave her a nice farewell in her final event before she retired. It was a sweet and classy act of a real champion - this is the standard I expect from him, and I suspect that's what he expects of himself.

I hope that Hanyu and Ten sort this out like the adults and classy skaters that I know them both to be.

I agree. and he has said publicly that he was wrong to show his anger. I hope he and Denis can sort this out civilly.

 

[Meoima]

I would think the skaters could ask their coaches to talk to Ten's coach, or at the least, be the one who is a good sportsman and approach Ten BEFORE practice gets underway. If several skaters say the same thing to him, maybe he'll be on the lookout. If not, they know he is the way he is, so don't expect anything different.

Yuzuru did talk to Denis after the second time Denis crossed his way. I don't know what happened after the third time (aka the punching board time). However a Japanese fan told me they have seen some news with Orser complaining about this before the short program event started.

 

[DreamSkates]

Yuzuru did talk to Denis after the second time Denis crossed his way. I don't know what happened after the third time (aka the punching board time). However a Japanese fan told me they have seen some news with Orser complaining about this before the short program event started.

If his behavior doesn't change, then skaters know to watch out even though they might have the right of way. Getting angry doesn't solve anything and only ruins your own practice especially if the other person is oblivious to the problem.

 

[misskarne]

So does getting softly run into (wasn't there a picture of Javi and Max Aaron hugging each other as they caught each other in a collision.)

Minor correction - Max and Javier didn't collide, they had a very near miss which caused Javier to fall. The account I heard suggested it was probably Max's fault, but also he immediately stopped, went back and apologised and we got that hug picture. But as I understood it, neither was in music.

If his behavior doesn't change, then skaters know to watch out even though they might have the right of way. Getting angry doesn't solve anything and only ruins your own practice especially if the other person is oblivious to the problem.

So basically...Denis should get away with breaking the rules of the practice session and everyone else should wreck their practices to go around him. Right.

 

[Skittl1321]

Minor correction - Max and Javier didn't collide, they had a very near miss which caused Javier to fall. The account I heard suggested it was probably Max's fault, but also he immediately stopped, went back and apologised and we got that hug picture. But as I understood it, neither was in music.

Thanks for the correction. Yes, it is definitely more egregious when music is on.

 

[Meoima]

And I hope you take your own advice and not pounce on every single post that isn't on Hanyu's side...

I didn't know that pointing out all the facts and source that I know is pouncing on all the posts against Yuzuru.

So tell me, you think a skater crossing another skater's path during their music 3 times in a row is acceptable? Oh well... and yet Frank come out and said it's not Denis' fault. Sorry but Denis was wrong in the first place to cross Yuzuru's path 3 times even though he might not do it intentional, and I repeat, it was during Yuzuru's run though.

Yuzuru made it clear, he said he had the feeling it might be intentional (after all, it's 3 times in a row) but he also said he's not right to get angry like that. Yuzuru did not stated "definitely he aimed at me" or something concrete. He simply showed his DOUBT.

If Denis and Frank want to clear up the doubt, why not just say sorry and explain it in a simple way? Instead they throw shade at Yuzuru. It was within Denis' ability and responsibility (and even his coach too) to pay attention to the surrounding when it's not Denis's run though.

Another funny point is Frank's comment that Yuzuru did not change his direction when he saw Denis, sorry maybe Frank has gone senile or he did not tell the truth. Rocker Skating noted it down that Yuzuru changed his direction to avoid Denis. Not to mention Yuzuru's 3A was designed to skate backward and he only turned forwards in the last seconds, if anything, Yuzuru were lucky to avoid an almost collision.

I am saying this as someone who want to believe that Denis was unaware of his surrounding. The point is Denis admitted that Yuzuru and he did talk after the 2nd time, why the 3rd time still happened?

You might not agree with Yuzuru, but he has all the rights to feel frustrated and find the whole thing dubious after his run through was crossed 3 time by the same skater.

 

[AxelAnnie]

True.

It's not the job of a competitive skater to memorize the program layouts of other skaters they might end up sharing practice ice with sometime in the future. They might choose to watch videos of their competitors to know what they're up against competitively. But 1) it's not a requirement; some may some may not; and 2) watching a program on video is very different from being on the ice at the same time in terms of anticipating the travel patterns/jump placements and where they occur in relation to the musical timing

I disagree. It is their job...perhaps not to memorize a program, but to stay out of the way of other skaters. They skate on insane practice ice at each competition. It IS your job to make sure you are aware of everyone and everything around you. Are there mistakes....sure. Somebody jigged when you expected them to jag. But skaters at this level should have a highly developed sense of those around them and of how to avoid them.

You should see the warm up ring at a riding competition. Makes the ice chaos look positively placid. Yet you learn to watch out! And to be conscious of where people with giant almost out of control horses are headed.

And shame on Frank. I would have expected better from him than that.

 

[gkelly]

I didn't say skaters aren't supposed to look out for the skater whose music is playing.

I took issue with the statement that "these guys know enough about each other's programs to know pretty well where the right-of-way skater is going to be heading next."

They should be paying attention precisely because they don't know where the skater is going to be heading next.

 

[kittyjake5]

IMO, Denis needs a check up by a competent physician. The idea that he would resort to intentional interference with Hanyu at this stage of their careers strikes me as laughable; he didn't try it with Patrick Chan in 2013, when he had a shot of winning gold. That he made the same sort of mistake three times strikes me that something is wrong: his ears aren't working (or his brain isn't processing things) properly.

Funny you should say that Denis needs a check up by a physician. I thought the same thing even before the practice incident. This season he just looks out of
it to me and I am not talking about his skating.

 

[hanca]

@antmanb

I actually think Yuzuru Hanyu and Han Yan were equally at fault and both caused the collision at 2014 Cup of China. I think they did it intentionally to themselves like stupid young men playing chicken, assuming the lesser would give way to the greater, and it did not go so well for either of them.

Here is a still frame that sums it up.

http://postimg.org/image/7zpkrq7q3/

Here is the video where the still frame came from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0MTsxj8hoI

You are being ridiculous! What you posted shows that you don't know much about skating! Have you ever skated at all? They both skated back to each other and therefore could not see each other. Yes, they should look, but the bottom line is that they didn't. Your photo shows that when they were just a few metre from each other, they stepped forward (to start entrance to a jump) and were for a little tiny millisecond facing each other, but because at that moment they didn't stop moving, they kept moving towards each other with the speed, they crashed before either of them had a chance to react. When you drive a car, it takes some 20-40 metres to stop if you are going at certain speed. From the time the driver sees that he should stop until the time the car actually stops, there is a distance that the car still travels and that's quite a few metres. The same is with skating. Unfortunately they both stepped forward and saw each other far too late to react. Don't forget that the length of the rink is 60 metres and from one end to the other it takes one skater to move just within a few seconds. So of two skaters are moving towards each other, it is not even a second they had to react.

 

[bardtoob]

@hanca

I think your point is reasonable, given their speed and proximity, although stopping is different than changing direction.

I did consider the contrary opinions of others, including @antmanb , who suggested other footage. I found three different kinds of extended footage in order to see as much of the session as possible and I still have the same opinion. Clearly my opinion is controversial, and only the skaters know for sure. I am fine with others disagreeing with me because clearly many never even considered it given the greatness of their injuries. I personally think they underestimated the consequences of the outcome (ie how badly they could be injured) before taking the risk.

 

[aftershocks]

This whole incident could have been an early April Fool's joke, but actually the April Fools drama happened on the ice in the fp.

Javier taking advantage as I write. What a crazy sport.