Articles confirming new Chinese pairs Yu/Zhang and Peng/Jin

feraina

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Do skaters even have the OPTION of NOT being state employees in China? Are they even allowed to train on their own, without the state running it and paying for it? And if they chose to do so, would they even be allowed to qualify to the national team?
No they are not. It is a state monopoly in essence. And Yu's family did support her out of their own pocket until she was 13. But she couldn't go farther than recreational club skating without going into the state system.
 

barbarafan

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@barbarafan, that AP article by Nancy Armour was written based on information that was brought to light here on FSU back in February 2011 - here is the link to the "famous" (infamous?) GSD thread in question: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/index.php?threads/age-discrepancies-for-chinese-skaters.77519/
(post #154 includes the link to the same AP article: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/ind...for-chinese-skaters.77519/page-6#post-3073956 and scroll down to post #180 to see FSU credited by Hersh)

ETA that Ren Hongguo was the deputy director of CSA five years ago and was quoted in the Chinese media coverage of this age controversy story here: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/ind...or-chinese-skaters.77519/page-20#post-3084072

thanks Sylvia...was not an fsu er at the time. I was more in the know with regards to girl's gymnastics as I watched those competitions on tv all the time..In that sport China had a child competing who had lost her baby teeth but they had not grown in yet..When challenged the story was that they had been knocked out...amazingly the knocked out teeth grew back the next year...The officials produced various documentation that all the girl's ages were correct.. So in these articles for the skating it seems the families were blamed with falsifying birthdates on the skaters . I guess that means the skaters can not do anything but what they are told to do by the Chinese Federation . China seems to be the "NEW VEGAS" What happens in China stays in China.
 

Spun Silver

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I think you're reading way too much into the situation. There are plenty of successful pairs skaters who do not have a marital-like bond. For many, pairs skating is a business relationship, nothing more.


But I bet China could have kept I&K together :(
I think the fact that Russia could not keep togethet its most promising dance team is enough to show its difference from the Chinese system. Zahorski-Guerreiro is another example of a team that came together largely on their own, having to fight (and cross international obstacles) to prove themselves (not without state help, but also not formed or wholly supported by it). So is this practice unique to China? That alone is enough to raise red flags. If a forced partnership or breakup of one is so rare that only one country in the skating world practices it, one has to ask why, and the reason is that it violates the heart and spirit of the skaters. And why is that? Because it is forcing them to be intimate together and to try to become "two as one" -- when in fact it is a relationship where an older and more powerful party, simply grabbed the other as if she was standing in a brothel window and broke up her successful partnership with someone else completely against her will (and possibly her previous partner's too, as, if some here are correct, his career just went from promising to the dust bin).

I am not trying to romanticize pairs partnerships. But there are not too many jobs where the partners spend hours alone together every day, hold/are held by the crotch, tell each other what to eat or not eat, travel around the world together, put each other's lives in their hands, literally, on a daily basis, and have as their overarching goal to create the impression of two as one, a romantic ideal. It is a unique job that requires commitment of body and spirit. Sure, there have been battling pairs and dance teams who were able to set aside their differences and work professionally together with great results (Castelli-Shnapir, Hurtado-Diaz) and there have also been such teams who split because of those differences (Castelli-Shnapir, Hurtado-Diaz). Not unlike a marriage. But the members of those teams chose to stay together and they chose to split. That makes all the difference. People are not robots or slaves.

These partnerships are obviously not identical to marriages or romantic relationships. I'm making an analogy, given all the factors above. If it's not helpful, ditch it. I am using it as shorthand to show why these CSA actions were human rights violations, IMO, and should be banned by the ISU.
 
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Xela M

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It's just sick because an older man is grabbing all kinds of teen girls, throwing them against the boards without so much as a second glance and forcing them to do highly dangerous elements regardless of their ability/will to perform them. If this huge monster of a guy throws two tiny iddy biddy girls against the boards at the most prestigious competitions without a care in the world, I can only imagine what goes on at practices
 

hanca

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I didn't like how he did the jump on his own. If he waited for a few more seconds, they could get more points because there would be a side by side jump. But he was more interested in jumping and showing that she is not where she is supposed to be, rather than aiming for the best result of their team.
 

jlai

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I think the fact that Russia could not keep togethet its most promising dance team is enough to show its difference from the Chinese system. Zahorski-Guerreiro is another example of a team that came together largely on their own, having to fight (and cross international obstacles) to prove themselves (not without state help, but also not wholly supported by it). So is this practice unique to China? That alone is enough to raise red flags. If a forced partnership or breakup of one is so rare that only one country in the skating world practices it, one has to ask why, and the reason is that it violates the heart and spirit of the skaters. And why is that? Because it is forcing them to be intimate together and to try to become "two as one" -- when in fact it is a relationship where an older and more powerful party, simply grabbed the other as if she was standing in a brothel window and broke up her successful partnership with someone else completely against her will (and possibly her previous partner's too, as, if some here are correct, his career just went from promising to the dust bin).

I am not trying to romanticize pairs partnerships. But there are not too many jobs where the partners spend hours alone together every day, hold/are held by the crotch, tell each other what to eat or not eat, travel around the world together, put each other's lives in their hands, literally, on a daily basis, and have as their overarching goal to create the impression of two as one, a romantic ideal. It is a unique job that requires commitment of body and spirit. Sure, there have been battling pairs and dance teams who were able to set aside their differences and work professionally together with great results (Castelli-Shnapir, Hurtado-Diaz) and there have also been such teams who split because of those differences (Castelli-Shnapir, Hurtado-Diaz). Not unlike a marriage. But the members of those teams chose to stay together and they chose to split. That makes all the difference. People are not robots or slaves.

These partnerships are obviously not identical to marriages or romantic relationships. I'm making an analogy, given all the factors above. If it's not helpful, ditch it. I am using it as shorthand to show why these CSA actions were human rights violations, IMO, and should be banned by the ISU.
No way will ISU do anything. For one thing, we are talking about an entity that cannot follow its own rules. In addition ISU didn't do anything during Sochi did they?
All that aside, messing with a fed's internal operations is a whole can of worms

If we are talking violation and abuse, let's start with partner abusing partner. Remember Elena B's partner? To me documented abuse can be a case for sanction for an individual skater; political pressure on skaters is a grey area that is hard to document and prove. Eg if I as skating parent force skater B to skate with my son with threats of withdrawn funding, how can ISU sanction me?

Eta what that means is if Zhang is mistreating his partner and if she takes it to the police during an international competition, now we may have sth there
 
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Xela M

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I didn't like how he did the jump on his own. If he waited for a few more seconds, they could get more points because there would be a side by side jump. But he was more interested in jumping and showing that she is not where she is supposed to be, rather than aiming for the best result of their team.

He didn't even make any attempt to stop or help her. He literally skated past her whilst she was lying by the boards. What the hell kind of partner is that?!?! I've never seen anything like it even from teams who hate each other
 

skateboy

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This topic has become quite disturbing, but not because of the new pairings.

Posters have called Zhang an "ogre" and "sick"... and why? We have no way of knowing what his role is here. Let's at least just be honest: those of you trash talking Zhang never liked him in the first place, so you have no problem spouting hateful gossip as though it is fact.

But, of course, Hongbo Zhao couldn't possibly have anything to do with what's happening here (even though he coaches the teams), because he, unlike Zhang, is a beloved icon in the sport.

Ahm jes' sayin'...
 

barbarafan

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No way will ISU do anything. For one thing, we are talking about an entity that cannot follow its own rules. In addition ISU didn't do anything during Sochi did they?
All that aside, messing with a fed's internal operations is a whole can of worms

If we are talking violation and abuse, let's start with partner abusing partner. Remember Elena B's partner? To me documented abuse can be a case for sanction for an individual skater; political pressure on skaters is a grey area that is hard to document and prove. Eg if I as skating parent force skater B to skate with my son with threats of withdrawn funding, how can ISU sanction me?

Eta what that means is if Zhang is mistreating his partner and if she takes it to the police during an international competition, now we may have sth there

That is a nice thought ..however what kind of reprisals would the skater or the skater's family get if a female pair skater did this...At a competition they are normally in a foreign country and I do not even know what kind of supervision they have when they are travelling...It makes me really sick but I do not think things will change unless there is a lot of media coverage worldwide...video's sent in of abuses to a central place.The girls would have to bring charges for police to get involved and would you if you were in their shoes....Even with the age falsifications the families of the skaters were blamed.If there is enough evidence can the ISU not be forced to issue bans on entire teams from which partner abuse is accepted and not stopped...Ie....not let China compete in figure skating at 2018 Olympics unless they clean up their act...Although they may just hide the bodies.
Forums and polls are actually a good starting point.
 

barbarafan

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5,306
This topic has become quite disturbing, but not because of the new pairings.

Posters have called Zhang an "ogre" and "sick"... and why? We have no way of knowing what his role is here. Let's at least just be honest: those of you trash talking Zhang never liked him in the first place, so you have no problem spouting hateful gossip as though it is fact.

But, of course, Hongbo Zhao couldn't possibly have anything to do with what's happening here (even though he coaches the teams), because he, unlike Zhang, is a beloved icon in the sport.

Ahm jes' sayin'...

Of course the coach is in compliance as well and is to blame as well if he allows this behaviour
 

Xela M

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4,827
This topic has become quite disturbing, but not because of the new pairings.

Posters have called Zhang an "ogre" and "sick"... and why? We have no way of knowing what his role is here. Let's at least just be honest: those of you trash talking Zhang never liked him in the first place, so you have no problem spouting hateful gossip as though it is fact.

But, of course, Hongbo Zhao couldn't possibly have anything to do with what's happening here (even though he coaches the teams), because he, unlike Zhang, is a beloved icon in the sport.

Ahm jes' sayin'...

Have you seen their Boston SP?
 

Vash01

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Do skaters even have the OPTION of NOT being state employees in China? Are they even allowed to train on their own, without the state running it and paying for it? And if they chose to do so, would they even be allowed to qualify to the national team?

Good questions. I doubt that in China the athletes have any freedom.
 

hanca

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He didn't even make any attempt to stop or help her. He literally skated past her whilst she was lying by the boards. What the hell kind of partner is that?!?! I've never seen anything like it even from teams who hate each other
I didn't mind that he didn't help her because in pairs the girls often have to get up themselves after they fall. But he could have slowed and wait with the next element, to give her time to catch up and get more points for proper sbs jump, rather than each of them jumping at completely different times. It was like if he did it on purpose, to get as bad result as possible.
 

jlai

Question everything
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That is a nice thought ..however what kind of reprisals would the skater or the skater's family get if a female pair skater did this...At a competition they are normally in a foreign country and I do not even know what kind of supervision they have when they are travelling...It makes me really sick but I do not think things will change unless there is a lot of media coverage worldwide...video's sent in of abuses to a central place.The girls would have to bring charges for police to get involved and would you if you were in their shoes....Even with the age falsifications the families of the skaters were blamed.If there is enough evidence can the ISU not be forced to issue bans on entire teams from which partner abuse is accepted and not stopped...Ie....not let China compete in figure skating at 2018 Olympics unless they clean up their act...Although they may just hide the bodies.
Forums and polls are actually a good starting point.
Fwiw my comment is not meant for literal interpretation. What I meant is that you can go after an athlete for some tangible wrongdoing, which is sth to keep in mind, IF this indeed happens
 

clairecloutier

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I didn't mind that he didn't help her because in pairs the girls often have to get up themselves after they fall. But he could have slowed and wait with the next element, to give her time to catch up and get more points for proper sbs jump, rather than each of them jumping at completely different times. It was like if he did it on purpose, to get as bad result as possible.

Sadly, given the machinations involved in this partner switch, the bolded statement seems not beyond the realm of possibility.
 

Spun Silver

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Fwiw my comment is not meant for literal interpretation. What I meant is that you can go after an athlete for some tangible wrongdoing, which is sth to keep in mind, IF this indeed happens
Even in the West, the police are not much use for abuse. They come, the abuser stops and promises never to do it again, and they go away. Or, frequently the abused person refuses to press charges. I remember the ballerina Darci Kistler doing that after she called in the cops on her husband Peter Martins. They had too much at stake in their careers, or at least his (I dont remember if she had retired yet), to deal with the consequences of an arrest for DV. Certainly a little Chinese pairs skater would come under enormous pressure not to press charges. Police are much more direct employees (arms) of the state than pairs skaters.

It takes a lot of support and strength for an abused person anywhere to deal with the difficulties involved in pressing charges.
 

jlai

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Even in the West, the police are not much use for abuse. They come, the abuser stops and promises never to do it again, and they go away. Or, frequently the abused person refuses to press charges. i remember the ballerina Darci Kistler doing that after she called in the cops on her husband Peter Martins. They had too much at stake in their careers, or at least his (I dont remember if she had retired yet), to deal with the consequences of an arrest for DV. Certainly a little Chinese pairs skater would come under enormous pressure not to press charges. Police are much more direct employees (arms) of the state than pairs skaters.
Like I said already my comments are not meant for literal interpretation. If you were a Chinese out for revenge or whatever motive what would you do?
If I were Zhang I would be extra careful because you now have a mark on your back.

Eta of course it is also possible that the folks wanting this to happen have enough dirt on every skater that they dare not squeal.
 
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tony

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I'm in the minority here, but I didn't see any problem with Zhang continuing once Peng fell. He had no idea how long it was going to take her to get to the other side of the ice, and he continued with the timing. Some of you seem to suggest he should have put the brakes on while gliding forward, then suddenly picked up the speed again to attempt the 3T once she was near. Not going to happen. If Zhang did stop, then they could have lost the rhythm or played catch-up for the rest of the program. Maybe easy to do when it's only one skater, but not when you have two skaters that need to be incredibly in sync, especially for high-risk elements like the lift.
 
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Xela M

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I'm in the minority here, but I didn't see any problem with Zhang continuing once Peng fell. He had no idea how long it was going to take her to get to the other side of the ice, and he continued with the timing. Some of you seem to suggest he should have put the brakes on while gliding forward, then suddenly picked up the speed again to attempt the 3T once she was near. Not going to happen. If Zhang did stop, then they could have lost the rhythm or played catch-up for the rest of the program. Maybe easy to do when it's only one skater, but not when you have two skaters that need to be incredibly in sync, especially for high-risk elements like the lift.

I have been watching pairs for decades and skaters have all kinds of bad falls and 99.9999% of the partners actually try make sure the other is ok if a fall was bad enough (like this one was). Skating past her to jump his 3T when he just threw her against the boards is not behaviour I have witnessed from any pairs partner
 

tony

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I have been watching pairs for decades and skaters have all kinds of bad falls and 99.9999% of the partners actually try make sure the other is ok if a fall was bad enough (like this one was). Skating past her to jump his 3T when he just threw her against the boards is not behaviour I have witnessed from any pairs partner

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it64wsTc7pA&t=55s

This shows that he actually did brake a little bit and he turned around until she got up. He likely did the 3T just to keep with the program rather than stroke around for an additional 10 seconds, not to spite Peng as some think.
 

hanca

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it64wsTc7pA&t=55s

This shows that he actually did brake a little bit and he turned around until she got up. He likely did the 3T just to keep with the program rather than stroke around for an additional 10 seconds, not to spite Peng as some think.
It also shows that she did the jumps just a few seconds after him. So if he waited just a few seconds, they would actually jump at the same time. The element is called side by side jumps, not one after the other jumps. Skaters do improvise sometimes, if they have to. Even pairs. For example, I have seen a pair adding a death spiral at the end because they missed it during the program because of a fall. Here they wouldn't need to improvise that much. All he needed was pushing slightly less to give her time to catch up, and delay his jump a few second. I am sure the music would be fine. They could do the jump together at the time she did it on her own, and then continue the same way as they did after her jump.
 

barbarafan

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it64wsTc7pA&t=55s

This shows that he actually did brake a little bit and he turned around until she got up. He likely did the 3T just to keep with the program rather than stroke around for an additional 10 seconds, not to spite Peng as some think.
It also shows that she did the jumps just a few seconds after him. So if he waited just a few seconds, they would actually jump at the same time. The element is called side by side jumps, not one after the other jumps. Skaters do improvise sometimes, if they have to. Even pairs. For example, I have seen a pair adding a death spiral at the end because they missed it during the program because of a fall. Here they wouldn't need to improvise that much. All he needed was pushing slightly less to give her time to catch up, and delay his jump a few second. I am sure the music would be fine. They could do the jump together at the time she did it on her own, and then continue the same way as they did after her jump.

Interesting commentary on eurosport.......height was ok but was thrown too far. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfFpaa6PYYI
 

WildRose

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The CBC's commentators explained that he had no choice but to continue skating the program. When a fall happens in the middle of a pairs program, the other skater has to keep going and the one who falls has to catch up. Had this happened during a practice or warm up it would have been different.
 

Xela M

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it64wsTc7pA&t=55s

This shows that he actually did brake a little bit and he turned around until she got up. He likely did the 3T just to keep with the program rather than stroke around for an additional 10 seconds, not to spite Peng as some think.

TAT's comment in the place you linked: "He should have given her a hand" and the other commentator said "How strong he is! He throws one partner against the boards, then another!"

A real gent he is ;)
 
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Spun Silver

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I'm thinking that second commentator had heard about the upcoming split/repairing.

P.S. Yay, TAT.
 

barbarafan

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The CBC's commentators explained that he had no choice but to continue skating the program. When a fall happens in the middle of a pairs program, the other skater has to keep going and the one who falls has to catch up. Had this happened during a practice or warm up it would have been different.


oh pls....she is an ice dance coach
 

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