The Dance Hall 9: Bring the Bling or No Beijing 2021-2022

[Ena Grins]

My number one wish for ice dance scoring is that they weight the GOE score in line with the level achieved on the element.

I'd like to see +4 to +5 only being allowed on step sequences that hit Levels 3-4. Maybe also only allow +3 for Level 2 and above. I'd be okay not restricting GOE for things like lift or spin levels, since I think it should be possible to do a really nice but simple element and score reasonably well. Senior teams would still be going for all level 4s but junior or younger teams could capitalize on that to improve their overall performance ability.

 

[GarrAargHrumph]

My reaction exactly. Watching teams crisply and ably navigate the pattern is my favorite part of ice dance! Without it, all that is left are those boring flowy free programs.

Why do I think that the Gadbois school is probably behind this? They’ve never been big on teaching/perfecting those patterns, and I’m sure would rather not have to bother at all.

I understand Gadbois are among those who want to retain the pattern.

When the ISU told coaches about this change, the majority of coaches in attendance pushed back strongly. The ISU right now is considering changes to their proposal. This is delaying the development of senior level programs for the coming year.

I will hold out a little hope until we get the announcement from the ISU....but yeah, this is not good news though not really a surprise.

I agree with those above that this has been on the cards for a while. The SD/RD concept has been a mess, and even after more than a decade they don't really seem to have a clear view of what they're trying to do with it. And recently when they've had the theme, and the rhythms, and the compulsory pattern, and the other requirements it's been trying to do too much.

I'm a bit apprehensive to see where they end up with on the technical elements. Losing the pattern from senior (and junior?) ice dance is unambiguously bad for the sport, but it could lead to more coherent programmes - stripping things back to focus on a single rhythm and footwork sequences, skating in hold etc. But I'm expecting requirements more like "a choreographic step sequence in the style of a rhumba, samba or meringue".

There's also rumour that the qualifying round will be coming back to Worlds next season. Maybe for dance all teams should enter and skate the same compulsory pattern. Just a suggestion.

There is a formal proposal to reinstate the qualifying rounds. That doesn't mean it'll be accepted, but it's been proposed.

One idea that was brought up re: dance is to require a specific element or element sequence from each team in the short dance, rather than requiring a specific pattern. I was told this is done in solo dance now (? I'm not familiar with solo dance, so others can explain or correct).

I'm not necessarily too bothered with losing the pattern (with the way they've valued GOE over levels, I'm honestly not sure how much difference it will make) but I would still like there to be a technical aspect to the RD that sets it apart from the FD. Otherwise it'll be even more based on reputation and politics than it already is. I like the idea above to require closed holds in at least one step sequence, or I wonder if they'll have strict time signature requirements...

I understand there was a proposal about requiring closed hold for one of the dances (short or free) in seniors, where it's not required right now in that dance; but I don't remember the details. The proposal didn't pass.

 

[Karen-W]

Reed/Ambrulevicius are in for at least another season! Great news for Lithuanian ice dance!

https://www.instagram.com/p/CcTGagoqi5_/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

[deegee]

Reed/Ambrulevicius are in for at least another season! Great news for Lithuanian ice dance!

https://www.instagram.com/p/CcTGagoqi5_/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

thank goodness. i love this team!

 

[SidelineSkater]

Reed/Ambrulevicius are in for at least another season! Great news for Lithuanian ice dance!

https://www.instagram.com/p/CcTGagoqi5_/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

Help me out. It looks like the link is for a different team?

 

[Karen-W]

Help me out. It looks like the link is for a different team?

Whoops! Not sure why the link didn't copy correctly...

https://www.instagram.com/p/CcU6Wd1skPU/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

[Colonel Green]

I'm guessing the Czech fed is kicking itself about those selection criteria.

 

[litenkyckling]

Just watching a couple of FD's before tomorrow to remind myself what people are doing.

I had a thought though - I really do think that some teams will end up doing a Bridgerton FD at some point in the next couple of years, and I think that Bekker/Hernandez should be one of them. Their FD this year has such a classic yet fun feel, romantic but age appropriate and I really do think it's something they could pull off nicely.

 

[skategal]

So if Latin is the rhythm next season, I’m guessing we will see lots of “Encanto” programs.

 

[Karen-W]

So if Latin is the rhythm next season, I’m guessing we will see lots of “Encanto” programs.

on the junior level?

 

[skategal]

on the junior level?

I bet all levels.

 

[litenkyckling]

I'm assuming since the season is now officially over we'll get an announcement about the RD in the next couple of weeks?

I wonder if there will be any other changes - after 4 years I'm ready to nail my colours to the mast and say that the chroeo elements shouldn't have +5 goe possibility. They aren't truly judged on creativity and instead on standings, and I think they need reassessed.

 

[clairecloutier]

Seeing the choreo elements lowered in value is my #1 wish for ice dance at this point. I love these elements, and they are fun, but they reward performance value, not skating skills, and as such I just don't think they should be worth as much as they are.

 

[VGThuy]

I want bigger point differentials in levels of elements and the choreo elements to decrease in value as well. I also think PCS needs to be revamped with different categories introduced. I think the loss of set patterns is going to be a real loss in ice dance. To think we’re never going to see teams do the Golden Waltz, Ravensburger Waltz, Tango Romantica, the true full and difficult Midnight Blues, etc. anymore.

 

[barbarafan]

I want bigger point differentials in levels of elements and the choreo elements to decrease in value as well. I also think PCS needs to be revamped with different categories introduced. I think the loss of set patterns is going to be a real loss in ice dance. To think we’re never going to see teams do the Golden Waltz, Ravensburger Waltz, Tango Romantica, the true full and difficult Midnight Blues, etc. anymore.

I hate this change....was it proposed initially for Diana Davis to undeservedly climb higher in the rankings. BTW I love the choreo elements . They are a big highlight for me watching and they often show so much originality.

 

[Dobre]

Ah, classic wild & crazy Junior Worlds results, reminiscent of pre+5 & -5 GOE Junior Worlds events. Only 3 teams with the same placements in the RD & FD and one of those with a different overall finish.

It's very late so I'll try to post other thoughts another day.

 

[Dobre]

Thoughts on Junior Worlds:

Wow! For the Browns. Really skated with attack the whole competition. I've loved this RD all season, and I knew they had a shot; but it felt like a long shot as the JGP judges didn't give them a lot of love and it's such a big ask to not only put up one great skate when a rare opportunity arises but to repeat that attack after you are in a surprise lead, kudos!

Grimm & Savitskiy, I think, were the biggest surprise of the event. They--she, in particular--have a nice feel in that RD of theirs and they did defeat the top French team this season in that portion of their first JGP, but G&S have been out there this season at a number of events and it is pretty incredible how many teams they had finished behind previously that they defeated here.

Bashynska & Beaumont had a great competition.

----

Interesting decision some of the junior teams have to make now about moving up. I hope they don't feel pressured to have to move up right away, as most haven't had a regular season of learning the ins and outs of competing as favorites with the pressure & expectations that entails. On the other hand, the post-Olympic year is always a good year for getting in on the GP as more experienced teams not only retire but also take time off and/or take more time to get longterm injury issues dealt with, etc.

Does anyone have a list of which junior teams age up?

I know another poster said that Ling & Wein will.

 

[RoseRed]

Thoughts on Junior Worlds:


Interesting decision some of the junior teams have to make now about moving up. I hope they don't feel pressured to have to move up right away, as most haven't had a regular season of learning the ins and outs of competing as favorites with the pressure & expectations that entails. On the other hand, the post-Olympic year is always a good year for getting in on the GP as more experienced teams not only retire but also take time off and/or take more time to get longterm injury issues dealt with, etc.

Does anyone have a list of which junior teams age up?

I know another poster said that Ling & Wein will.

I don't think there are too many. From those at JW, I think it's only Ling/Wein, Oliver/Andari, and Lebedeva-Bitadze/Parkhomenko.

As for others, from Canada, there's Makita/Gunara and Robinson/Portz. Calderari/Cilli from Italy were going to, but I believe they split. There were also a couple Russian and Belorussian teams aging out, but it doesn't seem like they'll be allowed to compete either way next season.

 

[Dobre]

I don't think there are too many. From those at JW, I think it's only Ling/Wein, Oliver/Andari, and Lebedeva-Bitadze/Parkhomenko.

As for others, from Canada, there's Makita/Gunara and Robinson/Portz.

I so love Makita & Gunara. That's a bummer that they won't get another junior season after missing out on so many competitive opportunities last season & this one.

 

[Gris]

Quoting @morqet 's post in GSD regarding the technical rules for the new season:

https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/28234-isu-communication-2468/file

RD Requirements
Junior: Tango plus at least one of the following Dance Styles – Paso Doble, Flamenco, Spanish Waltz, Fandango, Bolero, Jota, Sevillanas, Milonga • The Pattern Dance Element - Argentine Tango - skated to Tango rhythm, with the range of tempo: 24 measures of 4 beats per minute (96 beats per minute) plus or minus 2 beats per minute
Senior: Latin Dance Styles: At Least Two (2) Different Dance Styles/Rhythms chosen from Salsa, Bachata, Merengue, Mambo, Cha Cha, Rhumba, Samba • The Pattern Dance Type Step Sequence and Step Sequence must be skated to a different Latin Style/Rhythm

Juniors still have a Pattern - 2 sections of the Argentine Tango. Seniors have a Pattern Style Sequence, but no set pattern, and a Choreographic Rhythm Sequence (ChRS) that must be mostly in hold.

FD is mostly the same, but with the option to choose assisted jumps as one of the choreographic elements.

Choreographic Assisted Jumps: at least three assisted jumps performed in a row
The following requirements apply:

• At least three in a row (same or different)
• Cannot rotate more than 1 ½ rotations in each assisted jump by the assisting partner
• Less than three seconds off the ice for assisted partner
• No more than three (3) steps in between each assisted jump
• Either partner may do the assisted jumps

Although it's good to see the ChRS will be mostly in hold, it will be evaluated as a choreographic element so another BV 1.10 with massive GOE thing.

Other changes include: Pose/change of pose of the lifted partner in the RD lift should be different from the same type of lift in the FD; the Step Sequence in the FD will be evaluated as something like CiStW3+CiStM3 (I really dislike this change); and music of the same tempo/rhythm/expression should not last for more than 75% of the FD.

 

[litenkyckling]

Quoting @morqet 's post in GSD regarding the technical rules for the new season:



Although it's good to see the ChRS will be mostly in hold, it will be evaluated as a choreographic element so another BV 1.10 with massive GOE thing.

Other changes include: Pose/change of pose of the lifted partner in the RD lift should be different from the same type of lift in the FD; the Step Sequence in the FD will be evaluated as something like CiStW3+CiStM3 (I really dislike this change); and music of the same tempo/rhythm/expression should not last for more than 75% of the FD.

I like the lift rule - I like rules that push teams to do something new or to have variety in what they offer.

Also don’t like the step sequence change - but I guess good from an audience perspective if you want to understand better quality turns? But this is a team sport so no.

My biggest ??? of the new rules is the choreo assisted jumps - what the heck are they? And why do we need them?

 

[Gris]

My biggest ??? of the new rules is the choreo assisted jumps - what the heck are they? And why do we need them?

At least it's not mandatory. Hoping ISU can publish an instruction video for that soon, lol.

 

[litenkyckling]

At least it's not mandatory. Hoping ISU can publish an instruction video for that soon, lol.

I’m sure that will be a gift in and of itself!

 

[Karen-W]

That lift rule seems written to benefit Chock/Bates and any other team that is already strong or very creative with their lifts.

 

[litenkyckling]

That lift rule seems written to benefit Chock/Bates and any other team that is already strong or very creative with their lifts.

Perhaps - but I don’t think it’s a bad thing. I know not all teams are the best lifters BUT some teams (in my opinion) never push to try. For example - P/C while they have a set of nice lifts it’s the same ones every time. One of the highlights this season for me was when H/D stepped it up and dared to go for their risky lift.

I think ultimately this rule will lead to more of the same in the FD as this year - which teams didn’t do a combo lift?

 

[Karen-W]

Perhaps - but I don’t think it’s a bad thing. I know not all teams are the best lifters BUT some teams (in my opinion) never push to try. For example - P/C while they have a set of nice lifts it’s the same ones every time. One of the highlights this season for me was when H/D stepped it up and dared to go for their risky lift.

Oh, I agree entirely on this point and don't have a problem with the rule, in theory, because I do think it is aimed at increasing the diversity of lifts each team does rather than reusing the same/similar lift in each program.

I think ultimately this rule will lead to more of the same in the FD as this year - which teams didn’t do a combo lift?

Well, at least with combo lifts, there is a larger number of options - ie Rotational/Curve, Stationary/Rotational, etc... there is greater variety in the lifts we see when they're combo lifts.

 

[Gris]

I have to say I find Fear / Gibson to be the biggest winner of this rule change. Great lifts, weak pattern, him being technically stronger than her and he also likes to do "choreographic jumps".

 

[Karen-W]

I have to say I find Fear / Gibson to be the biggest winner of this rule change. Great lifts, weak pattern, him being technically stronger than her and he also likes to do "choreographic jumps".

Yes... almost makes you think we should expect them to leapfrog ahead of Guignard/Fabbri in the standings next season.

 

[Dobre]

I'm non-plussed by the removal of the pattern, and non-plussed by the inclusion of another element so easily scored on reputation points.

Based on historical patterns in how they score & looking at the top ten teams, many of whom we don't have any particular expectation of seeing again, I think the removal of the pattern will/would likely help Hawayek & Baker, Fear & Gibson, and--if they continue or were continuing--Smart & Diaz and Gilles & Poirier. Then it could hurt Guignard & Fabbri, Reed & Ambrulevicius, and--if Russia returns to competition--Sinitsina & Katsalapov. More likely, it could hurt a team like Green & Parsons and Taschlerova & Taschler. Someone not yet established in the top ten that is trying to climb up the ladder and doesn't have the "look" of a traditional ice dance team but has a lot of technical strength. Speed & power should still be worth a lot, but clean edges, turns, and precision will no longer impact the majority of elements in the RD.

I'm in agreement with the post earlier that pointed out that compulsories, themselves, have often been susceptible to reputation scoring; but not with every panel & I do think that tendency had been dampened by the existence of other elements within the same dance. (AKA, we got some more honestly scored patterns with the creation of the short/rhythm dance because the patterns weren't the be all & end all of teams' placements and because of the keypoint criteria). I preferred the idea of expanding the number of patterns for the RD.

 

[thvu]

I'm non-plussed by the removal of the pattern, and non-plussed by the inclusion of another element so easily scored on reputation points.

This right here.

The rhythm dance has really punished teams with weaker skating skills and rewarded those with stronger ones when there were 3 high-value step sequences. Teams like SinKats and HubDon were really able to establish strong leads internationally that weaker teams skating-skills wise like ChoBat and GilPoir just could not overcome unless the teams ahead made mistakes in the Free Dance.

I get that the technical committee is trying to make programs more "entertaining" with actual choreography dictated by the music. The sport definitely needed to move away from the Shpilband/Zoueva era, but these changes are an overcorrection. The choreographic elements are now going to firmly decide competitions. Sigh...

Edit: I also disagree with another step sequence where the man and woman each get their own level call. Levels should live and die based on the weakest partner. I'm okay with twizzles and one-foot steps being called per partner, but step sequences should be one element, where there is a singular product created by the team trying to skate as one unit. Another sigh...