RIP Cecil

[Vash01]

Really? I am saddened by the death of the lion, I do think trophy hunters are repugnant and that it should be banned, but the level of vitriol raised in this thread and what I see playing out on the internet is disgusting.
The man has two children...they chose this? Do you seriously think his employees deserve to lose their jobs?

Employees get laid off all the time, due to downturns in economy, or some other reasons, and I am speaking from experience. They can find other jobs. Losing a job is not the same as losing a life. Same goes for the family. They are still alive, and will likely survive if there is a dip in their income. It's not a major tragedy for them.

There is no vitriol in my post. Just objective observation. If the children are young, they have no choice and it comes with the misfortune of being born to a bad parent or bad parents. Given that Palmer is 55, I assume his children are adults. I don't expect them to disown their father, but they should not support his activity either. They do have that Choice.

 

[attyfan]

Also, what should the "innocent patients" (i.e., those that did not know their dentist enjoyed killing animals until this publicity) do, especially those who find his "hobby" repugnant? Should they continue to patronize this guy, thereby financing his trips, simply because the employees will suffer? What about people who patronize other business who do things that the customer finds morally repugnant, such as people who are pro-equality, but find out that their favorite bakery won't do gay weddings?

 

[Vash01]

1. You have no idea whether his family approves or disapproves of his hunting.

2. You have no idea if his employees knew he was a big game hunter or not.

3. Most people in this world don't have the luxury of working only for saints. Not everyone who works for a company loves every little aspect of the company's owner. But people need to work, and can't hold out for working only for the Mother Theresa's of the world.

4. I don't accept excusing harming people on the grounds of collateral damage. When you get to that point, you are engaging in blood lust and vendettas, and there is NOTHING praiseworthy about either.

5. Palmer has two children. My understanding (though I could be wrong) is those children are school-aged. To blithely condone the harassment, vilification, and rejection/abandonment of those children because they are "collateral damage" in someone's view is beyond repugnant to me.

It is incredibly hypocritical to accuse Palmer of not respecting life enough, then cheer the economic dislocation of innocent employees, and social intimidation of his family and innocent children. I truly have no words...

Losing a life is not the same as economic hardship. Very different levels of difficulty. Where did I participate in social intimidation of his family and children? In the bolded portions you are accusing me of things I have not done, and I am furious about that. You better watch what you are accusing me of.

Children don't have control over who their parents are but they do get the positives and negatives of their parents. It's just life. One can feel sorry for them if they are suffering, but so are most other people in the world, at some point in their lives.

You have got to be extremely naïve in thinking that his employees didn't know he was a big game hunter, with all those 'trophies' around, with law suits, including one about sexual harassment.

People do have a choice to change jobs, and if they didn't change jobs before, they can change them now. Every person who works for others (or even those who work for themselves) go through ups and downs. These people are no exceptions. Nothing terrible has happened to them. I, for one, have not vilified or said horrible things about Palmer, leave alone his family or employees. It is very mean of you to accuse me of doing those things.

 

[Vash01]

Also, what should the "innocent patients" (i.e., those that did not know their dentist enjoyed killing animals until this publicity) do, especially those who find his "hobby" repugnant? Should they continue to patronize this guy, thereby financing his trips, simply because the employees will suffer? What about people who patronize other business who do things that the customer finds morally repugnant, such as people who are pro-equality, but find out that their favorite bakery won't do gay weddings?

I wouldn't support a business that would conflict with my basic moral/ethical beliefs. There are alternatives to dentists, bakeries, etc. Families stick together because they are families but employees or customers don't have to.

 

[Japanfan]

I think the reaction (and oftentimes overreaction) to Cecil's death has gotten way out of hand. Exotic animals are hunted everyday, legally and illegally, and the majority of the world doesn't give a sh*t.

Washing Post article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...nyas-endangered-elephants-were-slain/?hpid=z2

"As the world mourned Cecil the lion, five of Kenya's endangered elephants were slain." Where the public outrage on that?

This situation has given the issue a focus, and specific names and faces - a human face that is particularly ugly and deplorable, and an animal face that is very beautiful.

Just because it has prompted focused outrage does not mean the public isn't outraged about poaching in general.

I saw a bit on the new on the slaughter of rhinos a few days ago. It was disturbing and heartbreaking. However, no actual poachers were shown. This Washington Post article doesn't identify or discuss poachers either.

In Cecil's case, the public has a clear place to focus their outrage and an accessible forum for expressing it. There is an actual (and deplorable person) involved, which makes this story different from stories that discuss poaching more generally.

And this person is a trophy hunter, not a poacher.

His character, hunting practices, and arrogant attitude are part of the outrage, and just add insult to injury. It's appalling and frightening that such people exist. There are probably many poachers who kill out of desperation for income, and don't take pleasure in the kill, or enjoy torturing animals.

So, there are two issues at play, but they are not mutually exclusive. A person can find Palmer repugnant, and also be concerned about poaching/the slaughter of animals.

In putting a face on the issue of poaching, the Cecil story will hopefully prompt awareness, and motivate individuals and governments to take action. That would at least be one positive outcome.

 

[Vash01]

I remember reading a book long ago about an Indian queen - I think it was called 'A Princess remembers'. It was an autobiography. She was born in a royal family in India (they had those in the first half of the 20th century). They used to have tiger hunts and she killed her first tiger at age 12. I didn't agree with her that the tiger population decreased due to the lack of their habitat (cutting forests) and not due to the hunting. Why do hunters always justify killing animals using illogical arguments?

A few years ago I was reading a magazine article about the alarmingly low tiger population in India- it may have been a NWF issue (I don't remember exactly). Poachers may have been the main reason for the decreasing tiger population, according to the article. I may look for that issue but I may not find it. It was 4-5 years old.

As long as there are hunters and poachers, it's going to be tough for wild life to survive. The world needs some tough laws to at least protect the endangered species.

 

[Meoima]

Employees get laid off all the time, due to downturns in economy, or some other reasons, and I am speaking from experience. They can find other jobs. Losing a job is not the same as losing a life. Same goes for the family. They are still alive, and will likely survive if there is a dip in their income. It's not a major tragedy for them.

This I can speak from my experience. I quit my previous job when I found out both of my bosses (white Australian men) had like long time affairs in Southeast Asia. They cheated on their wives and their whole families.
And technically they paid those girls to sleep with them stayed with them for a long time. Each month each girl got around $10,000.
It's like you're having second wife from third world country and hide it from your whole family in US.
To me it's like prostitution because you pay them.
The worst is those guys control the girls they chose, they didn't even let them go outside and interact with people because they were jealous. They didn't want their girls to meet up with other man.
Who I am to judge the girls who chose to sleep with my bosses for money? It's their choices.

I quit the job because I can't stand that kind of people being my bosses. I was jobless for 8 months. Pretty much in some bad situation for long until I find my current job.

But guess what, it's my choice. I have no regrets.

If Palmer were my boss, I would quit. And I might throw some garbage toward him, and that's pretty much sane from me.

 

[agalisgv]

I don't fault those who choose not to work for him, nor those who choose not to patron him. Personally i wouldn't patron him either. I do fault, however, someone justifying making that decision for his employees because the employees deserve to be out of a job. No, they don't.

That's not justice, that's a vendetta--and it's ugly.

 

[Japanfan]

I don't fault those who choose not to work for him, nor those who choose not to patron him.

How can you defend anyone who chooses to patron him in the sense of supporting or endorsing him? Supporting him is different than working for him because you need a job.

If you use patron in the sense of use his services as a dentist - well, I suspect he's going to lose a lot of customers. Even if he's a competent dentist, the idea of having a person like that in your mouth is going to be repugnant to many.

How can someone with so little compassion for animals and little regard for their welfare truly care about the well-being of the people in his care?

 

[MacMadame]

Employees get laid off all the time, due to downturns in economy, or some other reasons, and I am speaking from experience. They can find other jobs.

I hope you realize how entitled you sound. Plenty of people aren't in a field where they can just find another job.

 

[Xela M]

I don't think I have ever worked in a place where I did not despise my boss

 

[Angelskates]

Are people only allowed to share their views if they engage in advocacy to advance the causes in question? Is that like not criticizing skaters unless you can do triples?

No, it's not like that at all. I haven't said that anyone couldn't share their views unless they engage in advocacy to advance the causes in question. I said I hoped that someone who is in favour of killing people who do things this one poster strongly disapproves of, is actually do things him/herself to education and advance the cause in question, rather than just saying kill him, ruin him, etc. And I do. The majority of people who are mouthing off online saying that this guy should be hunted, killed, etc. will forget about him in a week, and only really "care" about the cause when it's in the media, and are actually doing nothing at all to help the cause.

 

[agalisgv]

If you use patron in the sense of use his services as a dentist

That's what i meant. I don't patron Jimmy Johns for that very reason (owner is a trophy hunter).

 

[Vash01]

I don't think I have ever worked in a place where I did not despise my boss

That's too bad. I have had a wide spectrum of bosses. Some were incompetent, a few mean, some I respected and liked. Some were good persons but bad managers. None of them was immoral, however. So I didn't have to look for another job for that reason.

 

[Southpaw]

I'd never heard of this Jimmy Johns and a quickie search tells me that their sandwich hustlers have to sign a non-compete agreement. They're not allowed to work for another sandwich shop within a 3 mile radius for two years after termination of employment. Good grief is that really what we've come to in the first world??

 

[Artistic Skaters]

People are obsessed with this case, but Cecil the lion is less than a drop in a bucket when it comes to the depth of the problem. Compare the numbers between trophy hunting & the illegal trafficking of exotic animals. Illegal animal trafficking has developed a reputation for being as lucrative as the illegal drug trade with few of the legal consequences or penalties due to lax laws & severe understaffing of enforcement -

Where the U.S. Government Keeps Confiscated Animal Parts :

http://www.newsweek.com/2015/03/13/where-us-government-keeps-confiscated-animal-parts-310370.html

Inside, visitors come face-to-face with more than 1.5 million specimens in the repository—the only one of its kind in the United States. The sheer volume is, Schaefer says, “mind-boggling.” There are palettes of sea-turtle-skin boots, fur coats, taxidermied tigers, exotic birds, coral stolen from the ocean and rows and rows of reptiles from Mexico and South America. There are curios—turtle paperweights, bookends made of zebra feet and footstools crafted from elephant feet. Tiny seahorses packed tightly into plastic bags will never reach their intended destination in Southeast Asia for use as traditional medicine. Shelves stock the heads of tigers and jaguars, their mouths open in a perpetual roar.

Overwhelmed U.S. port inspectors unable to keep up with illegal wildlife trade :

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...c72086-fe42-11e3-b1f4-8e77c632c07b_story.html

It was a low-risk operation for the smugglers. With only six U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service inspectors and four police agents to search millions of shipments that arrive at JFK’s massive cargo facility each year, there was little chance of being caught.

National Strategy for Combating Wildlife Trafficking - Implementation Plan :

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/237592.pdf

 

[agalisgv]

I'd never heard of this Jimmy Johns and a quickie search tells me that their sandwich hustlers have to sign a non-compete agreement. They're not allowed to work for another sandwich shop within a 3 mile radius for two years after termination of employment. Good grief is that really what we've come to in the first world??

It's pretty outrageous. I think it's been challenged in court as unconscionable because in some places, that means former employees can't work in any sandwich shop in the entire city. From everything I've heard, the owner is a real tool.

 

[Vash01]

People are obsessed with this case, but Cecil the lion is less than a drop in a bucket when it comes to the depth of the problem. Compare the numbers between trophy hunting & the illegal trafficking of exotic animals. Illegal animal trafficking has developed a reputation for being as lucrative as the illegal drug trade with few of the legal consequences or penalties due to lax laws & severe understaffing of enforcement -

Where the U.S. Government Keeps Confiscated Animal Parts :

http://www.newsweek.com/2015/03/13/where-us-government-keeps-confiscated-animal-parts-310370.html

Overwhelmed U.S. port inspectors unable to keep up with illegal wildlife trade :

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...c72086-fe42-11e3-b1f4-8e77c632c07b_story.html

National Strategy for Combating Wildlife Trafficking - Implementation Plan :

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/237592.pdf

It's horrifying, no doubt. Sometimes it takes just a drop to attract attention from a large number of people. I didn't know about the problem (and still don't know how widespread it is) until this attracted my attention.

 

[Meoima]

People are obsessed with this case, but Cecil the lion is less than a drop in a bucket when it comes to the depth of the problem. Compare the numbers between trophy hunting & the illegal trafficking of exotic animals. Illegal animal trafficking has developed a reputation for being as lucrative as the illegal drug trade with few of the legal consequences or penalties due to lax laws & severe understaffing of enforcement -

Where the U.S. Government Keeps Confiscated Animal Parts :

http://www.newsweek.com/2015/03/13/where-us-government-keeps-confiscated-animal-parts-310370.html

Overwhelmed U.S. port inspectors unable to keep up with illegal wildlife trade :

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...c72086-fe42-11e3-b1f4-8e77c632c07b_story.html

National Strategy for Combating Wildlife Trafficking - Implementation Plan :

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/237592.pdf

It's the same here. Killing and selling endangered animals are not new in my country, but just around recent 5 years, our media pay attention to it, and guess what, it's too late. We almost have no wild lives, no forest left. Next generation better watch tiger, elephants... on recorded videos.

 

[manhn]

I'm not exactly sure why this guy having his own business matters. If he was a simple employee (or gasp--civil servant!), then it's okay to publicly shame the guy? Or if he had no family or friends, then it's okay?

Any sort of punishment will affect someone other than that one person. If there was no public shaming and he went to jail, I would think that would affect his business.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

I found this article interesting, titled "The Science Of Why You Are So Upset About Cecil The Lion":
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2015/07/29/3685758/science-of-cecil-outrage/

Thanks for the HUGE caps otherwise we would surely have missed your link.

I think it's rather clear that you have some sympathy for this joke of a man.

And for the record - I believe murderers should be killed and I have no sympathy for rapists who are raped (in jail). They deserve just what they get. But having had two loved ones murdered and being a multiple-times sexual assault survivor myself I guess I"m that biased. Don't care.

I don't wish the man dead - especially since he has a family - but I wish him many years in a Zimbabwe prison. May he rot in one. And I think his greatest punishment would be never to be allowed to hunt again. It's clear he thinks such hunts makes his member that much bigger.

There is good news for those of us who TRULY care about Cecil's unlawful killing - the hunter has truly become the hunted and it's just what he deserves:

US launches investigation into killing of 'Cecil the lion'
http://news.yahoo.com/us-opens-probe-cecil-lion-killing-182225004.html

"The US Fish & Wildlife Service is investigating the circumstances surrounding the killing of Cecil the lion," said Edward Grace, deputy chief of law enforcement at the agency.

But Palmer remained out of the public eye, and US authorities said they have had no luck so far in their efforts to track him down.


The coward is hiding though: "Multiple efforts to contact Dr Walter Palmer have been unsuccessful," Grace said.

The proven liar said in his statement that he was willing to cooperate with authorities - rubbish. And no doubt his sympathizers are helping him to hide. I hope his passport is pulled.

 

[Cachoo]

I suspect he thinks if he waits long enough it will all blow over. I'm curious to hear what the people who helped have to say about his involvement.

 

[Angelskates]

Thanks for the HUGE caps otherwise we would surely have missed your link.

No need to roll your eyes. I cut and paste the title on my iPad and was unable to change the size. Your rudeness is unnecessary.

BTW, the bolded title of the article you posted comes up on my iPhone as the same size as the one I posted.

 

[antmanb]

You have got to be extremely naïve in thinking that his employees didn't know he was a big game hunter, with all those 'trophies' around, with law suits, including one about sexual harassment.

I think you must have been foaming at the mouth with rage but I can't for the life of me work out what the sexual harassment suit has to do with him being a trophy hunter. He's obviously a despicable human being, but I suspect his colleagues are much more focused on how he treats them at work rather than what he gets up to when he's on his holidays.

And the arrogance of thinking that people can just change jobs without any problem is quite staggering. If this guy is as big an arsehole as he appears to be (sexual harassment suit being the most relevant thing here) and yet the employees are still working there, suggests that perhaps they don't have many other options to just up and leave.

That's too bad. I have had a wide spectrum of bosses. Some were incompetent, a few mean, some I respected and liked. Some were good persons but bad managers. None of them was immoral, however. So I didn't have to look for another job for that reason.

How would you know that? I've worked for my current boss for 5 years. We get on well professionally, have a good raport, I enjoy being in his company at work, but we have never socialised outside of work parties and do not see each other except for work purposes. I wouldn't have a clue whether he gets up to anything "immoral" in his own time.

The whole idea that this man's employees should all be leaving for moral reasons really sticks in my craw. How many corporations do infinitely more damage than this lone man has done. Are we suddenly expecting a large chunk of the population to resign from their jobs because they work for these corporations?

 

[Xela M]

He's despicable (as are most hunters in general imo) but sometimes animal love goes over and above human love and people lose all sense of proportion.

 

[snoopy]

He's despicable (as are most hunters in general imo) but sometimes animal love goes over and above human love and people lose all sense of proportion.

I agree with this but I think it's not that we are loving the animals too much, but aren't loving the people enough.

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

That's what i meant. I don't patron Jimmy Johns for that very reason (owner is a trophy hunter).

I did not know this. Thank you for pointing this out. I will never buy or eat anything from there again.

I would also not patronize this dentist as a patient nor continue as his employee, if I were in either of those situations. Some things are far too abhorrent to me as a citizen of the earth to begin to, or continue to, support.

I would have great compassion for any minor children in his household - but, as for adult children or spouse, the moral compass of their now knowing about his obscene actions comes into play in my expectation of any support of him by them if he remains sufficiently and believably unrepentant about those actions (not that my opinion is remotely likely to affect their lives or finances at all).

 

[skategal]

Zimbabwe government wants to extradite Palmer. Says he is an illegal poacher.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/zimbab...adited-in-killing-of-cecil-the-lion-1.3174982

 

[manhn]

He's despicable (as are most hunters in general imo) but sometimes animal love goes over and above human love and people lose all sense of proportion.

Not too long ago, posters were chastising others for not caring about all of the other animals who have been killed. Look at someone like Malala--I think she's almost as famous/beloved as Cecil. If the dentist shot Malala, I'm pretty sure there would be a few negative reviews on his Yelp pag.

 

[skatingfan5]

It's pretty outrageous. I think it's been challenged in court as unconscionable because in some places, that means former employees can't work in any sandwich shop in the entire city. From everything I've heard, the owner is a real tool.

I've spoken with people who have interacted with him and he certainly is. Jimmy John's was started in a nearby college town and is based in my town (actually the adjoining town as my town is much too "liberal" and pro-union) and his "non-compete" clauses for the low paid workers making sandwiches and even the delivery drivers is beyond the pale.