RIP Cecil

[MsZem]

And I ask again, what are you doing to educate and prevent animal rights violations, and uphold ethical treatment for animals? It's all well and good (but actually, disgusting, IMHO) to say kill people who abuse or kill animals, but are you doing anything to try and ensure this doesn't happen? Because I'm pretty sure every country in the world has animals for consumption that are mistreated by the minute - what are you doing about that? You seem passionate (though angry passionate, rather than action passionate) about animals in your posts - are you putting your money and actions where your keyboard is? I sure hope you are.

Are people only allowed to share their views if they engage in advocacy to advance the causes in question? Is that like not criticizing skaters unless you can do triples?

I'm a vegetarian and try to conduct myself as ethically as I can with regard to animal issues, but I'm not perfect, and I've found that preaching at people is not helpful. Answering questions about my choices, or helping those who want to follow a similar path to mine is helpful.

 

[allezfred]

Meanwhile in Zimbabwe.....

As social media exploded with outrage this week at the killing of Cecil the lion, the untimely passing of the celebrated predator at the hands of an American dentist went largely unnoticed in the animal’s native Zimbabwe.
“What lion?” acting information minister Prisca Mupfumira asked in response to a request for comment about Cecil, who was at that moment topping global news bulletins and generating reams of abuse for his killer on websites in the United States and Europe.
The government has still given no formal response, and on Thursday the papers that chose to run the latest twist in the Cecil saga tucked it away on inside pages.

 

[Meoima]

Meoima - what do you think should happen to the people who kill or mistreat other people?

In my country there were teenagers under 18 that killed people, including children under 5. Some killed the whole family for money. And you know, they got away because they were just less than 18 several months. Do I think those bastards should be sentenced to death? Obvious yes.

And I ask again, what are you doing to educate and prevent animal rights violations, and uphold ethical treatment for animals? It's all well and good (but actually, disgusting, IMHO) to say kill people who abuse or kill animals, but are you doing anything to try and ensure this doesn't happen? Because I'm pretty sure every country in the world has animals for consumption that are mistreated by the minute - what are you doing about that? You seem passionate (though angry passionate, rather than action passionate) about animals in your posts - are you putting your money and actions where your keyboard is? I sure hope you are.

So I must list here all the social activities, all the animals I have saved, all the campaigns against animal abuses, all the donations I have made for animal activist groups to show that I have enough credibility to voice my opinion about this disgusting human?

 

[MsZem]

So I must list here all the social activities, all the animals I have saved, all the campaigns against animal abuses, all the donations I have made for animal activist groups to show that I have enough credibility to voice my opinion about this disgusting human?

You've mistakenly replied to Ant, who only asked you about the death penalty (I share his views on that subject).

 

[Meoima]

You've mistakenly replied to Ant, who only asked you about the death penalty (I share his views on that subject).

My reply is general for the question "what have you done to save animals to voice on this".
I don't have to list how many animals I have saved or donations I have done.

Meanwhile in Zimbabwe.....

Lol this happened in my country a few decades ago. Now we have nothing, no natural resource, no wild animals, no tigers, no bears, no red-crowned crane... just millions of delusional people who are living on old legends "our country is naturally gifted". Well actually it "was naturally gifted", not present tense as there is almost nothing natural left.

Been there done that, Zimbabwe will soon run out of wild animals, natural resource... and soon no one from 1st world countries will visit them either for tourism or trophy hunting. By that time who knows if they might actually care, oh by that time there will be nothing left for them. Same here, we start caring too late.

 

[MsZem]

My reply is general for the question "what have you done to save animals to voice on this".
I don't have to list how many animals I have saved or donations I have done.

Yes - buy it was Angelskates who asked you that, not Ant. As you can see from my reply to Angelskates, I too found the question pretty absurd.

 

[Sylvia]

Who’s Really Responsible for the Killing of Zimbabwe’s Lions and Other Wildlife?
http://time.com/3976344/cecil-lion-zimbabwe-walter-palmer/

 

[agalisgv]

Who’s Really Responsible for the Killing of Zimbabwe’s Lions and Other Wildlife?
http://time.com/3976344/cecil-lion-zimbabwe-walter-palmer/

I'm no fan of Mugabe, but to put the problem of trophy hunting on his shoulders is a bit much I think. Wasn't it in this thread that an article reported the majority of trophy hunters hail from the US? We need to own that, and pursue policies that curb such practices since we seem to be the ones financially fueling it.

 

[Meoima]

Yes - buy it was Angelskates who asked you that, not Ant. As you can see from my reply to Angelskates, I too found the question pretty absurd.

I intended to reply Angelskates, not ant, but my copy paste function was troubled. Just edit it.

Back to the topic, IMO the 1st world problem is that there are many people who have money and they are not satisfied with all the entertainment they can get in their countries, so they come to 3rd world countries like us, to pay for our women (when I was in a 1st country and use the internet, some pop up asked me to find some hot girls in my country, and they advertise the girls as beautiful and cheap), harass our children (oh yes, a famous pianist was reported to rape a boy in Thailand), killing our animals (like this case)... and engage in various types of "thrilling entertainments" that they can think of, and they will get away with all the crimes without any guilt because they're rich and protected by their countries' law, they can ditch all the responsibility and fly back to their 1st world countries and enjoy all the privilege.

And our 3rd world problem is that we are too poor, too badly-educated to care about our natural resource and our wild lives, thus we agree for those rich guys to kill our animals, take away our resources, do bad things to our women and children... and yes we technically kill ourselves.

Together the 1st world and 3 world are killing wild lives, abusing women and children... all are guilty.

 

[Vash01]

My reply is general for the question "what have you done to save animals to voice on this".
I don't have to list how many animals I have saved or donations I have done.

Lol this happened in my country a few decades ago. Now we have nothing, no natural resource, no wild animals, no tigers, no bears, no red-crowned crane... just millions of delusional people who are living on old legends "our country is naturally gifted". Well actually it "was naturally gifted", not present tense as there is almost nothing natural left.

Been there done that, Zimbabwe will soon run out of wild animals, natural resource... and soon no one from 1st world countries will visit them either for tourism or trophy hunting. By that time who knows if they might actually care, oh by that time there will be nothing left for them. Same here, we start caring too late.

What country is yours?

It is sad that some countries are so short sighted. Countries like Zimbabwe see their wild life as a source of income due to the tourists coming to see or kill (more profitable, I believe) their wild life. Right now they are losing, and will be left with nothing. They need to protect the wild life for viewing and shooting with cameras rather than with guns or arrows (like Palmer did). That will bring them money over many generations. They are killing the goose that lays the golden egg for them. If there needs to be a ban on trophy killing it needs to come from these countries because their long term future is being threatened.

That's the economic reason. I am against trophy hunting (or hunting for sport in general) for ethical reasons. One should not kill another person or animal unless it is unavoidable (like in self defense or as food for survival). This needs to be taught since childhood. Instead, people train their children how to kill with a gun.

There could also be an environmental reason. If the animals disappear naturally (e.g. a lion kills a deer for food), that creates a natural balance. When people kill animals for sport or trophy, it creates an imbalance in that environment. I am not an expert in this so it will help to hear from experts on this. I am drawing parallel from natural fires in forests vs. man-created fires due to carelessness or arson. Some man-created fires are calculated ones, by agencies, for long term preservations but those due to carelessness or arson are harmful to the environment.

 

[Meoima]

What country is yours?

It is sad that some countries are so short sighted. Countries like Zimbabwe see their wild life as a source of income due to the tourists coming to see or kill (more profitable, I believe) their wild life. Right now they are losing, and will be left with nothing. They need to protect the wild life for viewing and shooting with cameras rather than with guns or arrows (like Palmer did). That will bring them money over many generations. They are killing the goose that lays the golden egg for them. If there needs to be a ban on trophy killing it needs to come from these countries because their long term future is being threatened.

That's the economic reason. I am against trophy hunting (or hunting for sport in general) for ethical reasons. One should not kill another person or animal unless it is unavoidable (like in self defense or as food for survival). This needs to be taught since childhood. Instead, people train their children how to kill with a gun.

There could also be an environmental reason. If the animals disappear naturally (e.g. a lion kills a deer for food), that creates a natural balance. When people kill animals for sport or trophy, it creates an imbalance in that environment. I am not an expert in this so it will help to hear from experts on this. I am drawing parallel from natural fires in forests vs. man-created fires due to carelessness or arson. Some man-created fires are calculated ones, by agencies, for long term preservations but those due to carelessness or arson are harmful to the environment.

I live in East Asia, we once had all the tigers, bears, elephants, rhinos, red-crowned cranes... now we have lost all. You don't know how sad and heartbreaking it is to read news about elephants being killed brutally, beheaded, and tigers being skinned... so many times on the news daily and weekly. The last time I heard about our wild life is that there is no rhino in our country anymore, the animal was killed definitely. How sad is that.

 

[madm]

Given that many predator species have disappeared from the wild in many areas of the U.S., hunting is a necessary activity for wildlife management to keep wildlife populations in balance with their habitat. This is often the case with deer and elk whose large numbers overrun national parks and forests and destroy their habitats, which could eventually lead to starvation for the entire population as well as other species. I have no problem with ranger sharpshooters conducting controlled hunts in those parks to keep population numbers at recommended levels, and then donating the meat to food banks. Of course, it would be ideal to reintroduce predators, like the wolves in Yellowstone, but this is not practical in small land areas next to urban development. The following article describes this situation in Rocky Mountain National Park well: http://www.nationalparkstraveler.co...elk-herds-rocky-mountain-national-park?page=1.

In the case of trophy hunting, it is not a wildlife management "tool" to manage a species. It is a "sport" that exists for the self-gratification of the hunter. It is especially deplorable when it involves a species that has critically low numbers worldwide. The only way to discourage poaching and trophy hunting in places like Africa is to provide a way for locals to make more money through tourism and conservation activities.

 

[Vash01]

I live in East Asia, we once had all the tigers, bears, elephants, rhinos, red-crowned cranes... now we have lost all. You don't know how sad and heartbreaking it is to read news about elephants being killed brutally, beheaded, and tigers being skinned... so many times on the news daily and weekly. The last time I heard about our wild life is that there is no rhino in our country anymore, the animal was killed definitely. How sad is that.

My heart breaks for these poor animals and for you.

 

[Meoima]

My heart breaks for these poor animals and for you.

Sorry I didn't make it clear. My country is in Southeast Asia, not East Asia (but I live in East Asia area now, as my mother is of Chinese descendant). When I was about 5 our people were so proud that we had it all, and all those beautiful animals, now I am 27 and we have nothing left. Red crowned cranes were hunted down for food, tigers were killed because of their beautiful skin, and tiger's bones are thought to be good medicine (seriously it's bones, just as our bones, no true medical effect), rhinos were killed for their horns that their horns because some people think their horns are like Viagra (despite the fact rhinos horns and human nails are just the same), then bears for their legs, elephants for their ivories...
I hate my country education is that they always rant that we are naturally gifted, if I were in charge of education, I would have told them this: "We once were naturally gifted with beautiful and exotic animals, but we no longer have them because we have killed and sold them all. Now were are much more poorer than in the past."

 

[Cachoo]

(((Meoima)))

 

[MacMadame]

I'm not saying you or anyone should feel sympathy towards him, I certainly don't. I just don't advocate people being killed for their crimes. I don't believe in the death penalty. I understand people being angry about this, I really do, but when people's anger bubbles over into advocating killing other people, how exactly is that any better than the person committing the crime?

I think there is a difference between letting off steam on the internet with no intention to turn it into action and going out and actually doing something. I don't approve of threatening violence to this horrible man, but I am not going to conflate people being verbal assholes with actually killing a living creature.

And our 3rd world problem is that we are too poor, too badly-educated to care about our natural resource and our wild lives

I don't think it's a matter of not caring but of having other, more pressing cares.

I think this issue needs to be solved by 1st world countries making it social unacceptable and illegal to do trophy hunting. Only when the money that 3rd world countries get dries up will there be incentive to find other sources of income.

There is a petition to stop airlines from accepting these trophies as baggage. If we make it illegal to bring them into the country, that will help a lot. It's something we can prosecute them for where it's hard to prosecute them for the actual killing as it happens in another country usually.

Here's a petition to get Delta Airlines to stop transporting exotic animal trophies, if people want to sign it:

https://www.change.org/p/delta-air-lines-end-the-transport-of-exotic-animal-hunting-trophies

 

[Buzz]

Not just the big game animals face threats, but so too do those who protect them.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...tional-park-emmanuel-de-merode-africa-world/#
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...led-in-rhino-poaching-gun-battle-7689038.html
http://www.ktul.com/story/28912201/fatal-shooting-shows-wardens-have-a-dangerous-job

 

[Simone411]

I think there is a difference between letting off steam on the internet with no intention to turn it into action and going out and actually doing something. I don't approve of threatening violence to this horrible man, but I am not going to conflate people being verbal assholes with actually killing a living creature.


I don't think it's a matter of not caring but of having other, more pressing cares.

I think this issue needs to be solved by 1st world countries making it social unacceptable and illegal to do trophy hunting. Only when the money that 3rd world countries get dries up will there be incentive to find other sources of income.

There is a petition to stop airlines from accepting these trophies as baggage. If we make it illegal to bring them into the country, that will help a lot. It's something we can prosecute them for where it's hard to prosecute them for the actual killing as it happens in another country usually.

Here's a petition to get Delta Airlines to stop transporting exotic animal trophies, if people want to sign it:

https://www.change.org/p/delta-air-lines-end-the-transport-of-exotic-animal-hunting-trophies

Okay. That really got to me. That man sitting there looking like he was so proud of killing that beautiful Lion. I guarantee you that if I would have been there, I would have beaten him up with my walker. How horrible!!!

That man wanting him for a trophy and taking the Lion to a taxidermist. It's just down right disgusting!!

 

[agalisgv]

Apparently the US Fish and Wildlife Service have been trying to question Palmer, with no response from him. They put out a media request for Palmer to contact them so they could investigate.

“The U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service (USFWS) is investigating the circumstances surrounding the killing of ‘Cecil the lion,’ ” said Edward Grace, the agency’s deputy chief of law enforcement. “That investigation will take us wherever the facts lead.”


Grace also acknowledged that “at this point in time … multiple efforts to contact Dr. Walter Palmer have been unsuccessful. We ask that Dr. Palmer or his representative contact us immediately.”

http://www.startribune.com/u-s-now-...is-looking-for-twin-cities-dentist/320076361/

ETA: Palmer and the hunt outfitter have been suspended from Safari Club International.

Also Wednesday, Safari Club International, a global organization of big-game hunters, said it was suspending Palmer’s membership and that of his Zimbabwe-based guide.


“Safari Club International supports a full and thorough investigation of the circumstances surrounding the death of Cecil the lion,” the group said in a prepared statement. “SCI supports only legal hunting practices … and believes that those who intentionally take wildlife illegally should be prosecuted and punished to the maximum extent allowed by law.”

http://www.startribune.com/police-p...twin-cities-hunter-who-killed-lion/319428081/

 

[Vash01]

Apparently the US Fish and Wildlife Service have been trying to question Palmer, with no response from him. They put out a media request for Palmer to contact them so they could investigate.
http://www.startribune.com/u-s-now-...is-looking-for-twin-cities-dentist/320076361/

I heard on TV that Palmer is in hiding.

 

[Southpaw]

It's like that short story "The Most Dangerous Game" that I had to read in 8th grade English in 1983.

 

[agalisgv]

I heard on TV that Palmer is in hiding.

I would guess that is true. The vitriol out there is incredibly intimidating. Hopefully his PR team will relay the message to him so he knows he is wanted for official questioning. Again, just a guess, but I would think he would want to consult with a lawyer first, or have a lawyer present.

 

[Vash01]

I would guess that is true. The vitriol out there is incredibly intimidating. Hopefully his PR team will relay the message to him so he knows he is wanted for official questioning. Again, just a guess, but I would think he would want to consult with a lawyer first, or have a lawyer present.

If I were Palmer, I would communicate through an attorney at this point (not that I care about what happens to him; I have already signed a petition to have him extradited to Zimbabwe).

Current state in his neighborhood:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/30/us/walter-palmer-whereabouts/index.html

I love the memorial with plush animals. Very touching.

I hate to think in terms of money, but right now plush lion toys are going to be very popular, and also lion costumes at Halloween this year.

IMO Palmer should at least be made to pay a hefty fine to the Oxford group that was studying him, and to the national park in Zimbabwe. They lost a major tourist attraction because of him. By 'hefty' I mean of the order of a million dollars.

I will be satisfied if he is made to serve jail time in Zimbabwe, but I very much doubt that it will happen. So I have to be satisfied with a 'hefty fine'.

 

[agalisgv]

My primary concern is over trophy hunting in general. Palmer is a cog in a much larger, deeply problematic, culture. I think people don't know how to address that larger issue, so all that frustration is vented on the one trophy hunter who's name is publicly available. But that creates some very disconcerting social behaviors in the form of virtual lynch mobs.

Here's an excellent article about online mob justice and the damage it inflicts:
http://www.vox.com/2015/7/30/9074865/cecil-lion-palmer-mob-justice

 

[Southpaw]

It's like that short story "The Lottery" that I had to read in eighth grade English class.

 

[Meoima]

My primary concern is over trophy hunting in general. Palmer is a cog in a much larger, deeply problematic, culture. I think people don't know how to address that larger issue, so all that frustration is vented on the one trophy hunter who's name is publicly available. But that creates some very disconcerting social behaviors in the form of virtual lynch mobs.

Here's an excellent article about online mob justice and the damage it inflicts:
http://www.vox.com/2015/7/30/9074865/cecil-lion-palmer-mob-justice

I agree Palmer is just one of many, and we need more rules and bans about this in general. But I think the attacks and public shaming toward him are rightful, let it be a lesson for other hunters, those who might think twice before they try to engage in some hunts like that and get exposed and hated by public like Palmer.

However, some people actually think it's bad for his employees and his family? So we should feel bad because his business might ruin since people don't want to pay him money? So people should keep coming to him, thus he will use the money people pay him to go for more hunts?? I don't buy that. Giving him more money and work means society has accepted Plamer as who he is, a cold blooded guy with fake smile who enjoys killing animals for fun.

Seriously if I were his employee I would quit right away. Who wants to work for someone who enjoys killing innocent lives? Let's say if I suddenly knew that my boss were an animal abuser/pedophile/killer... I would quit and not even care about the last pay. No thanks, I'd better be hungry than working for psychotic guys like that.

 

[Vash01]

I agree Palmer is just one of many, and we need more rules and bans about this in general. But I think the attacks and public shaming toward him are rightful, let it be a lesson for other hunters, those who might think twice before they try to engage in some hunts like that and get exposed and hated by public like Palmer.

However, some people actually think it's bad for his employees and his family? So we should feel bad because his business might ruin since people don't want to pay him money? So people should keep comping to him, thus he will use the money people pay him to go for more hunts?? That's is not right. Giving him more money and work means society has accepted Plamer as who he is, a cold blooded guys with fake smile who enjoys killing animals for fun.

Seriously if I were his employee I would quit right away. Who wants to work for someone who enjoys killing innocent lives? Let's say if I suddenly knew that my boss were an animal abuser/pedophile/killer... I would quit and not even care about the last pay. No thanks, I'd better be hungry than working for psychotic guys like that.

His family and employees are like collateral damage and I am OK with them being affected by his actions. His family won't disown him (they obviously don't mind the killing of animals). His employees can find other jobs. Apparently his 'sport' didn't bother them until this tragedy took place. So if they suffer a little along side, it was their choice.

 

[agalisgv]

His family and employees are like collateral damage and I am OK with them being affected by his actions. His family won't disown him (they obviously don't mind the killing of animals). His employees can find other jobs. Apparently his 'sport' didn't bother them until this tragedy took place. So if they suffer a little along side, it was their choice.

1. You have no idea whether his family approves or disapproves of his hunting.

2. You have no idea if his employees knew he was a big game hunter or not.

3. Most people in this world don't have the luxury of working only for saints. Not everyone who works for a company loves every little aspect of the company's owner. But people need to work, and can't hold out for working only for the Mother Theresa's of the world.

4. I don't accept excusing harming people on the grounds of collateral damage. When you get to that point, you are engaging in blood lust and vendettas, and there is NOTHING praiseworthy about either.

5. Palmer has two children. My understanding (though I could be wrong) is those children are school-aged. To blithely condone the harassment, vilification, and rejection/abandonment of those children because they are "collateral damage" in someone's view is beyond repugnant to me.

It is incredibly hypocritical to accuse Palmer of not respecting life enough, then cheer the economic dislocation of innocent employees, and social intimidation of his family and innocent children. I truly have no words...

 

[MacMadame]

Apparently his 'sport' didn't bother them until this tragedy took place. So if they suffer a little along side, it was their choice.

I don't think we can say this with any certainty. (Unless they've been quoted in the press as to what their feelings are.) We don't know if individual members of his family have tried to convince him to stop trophy hunting. Or if some of his employees were made sick by it but stayed because they needed the job.

 

[skatemomaz]

His family and employees are like collateral damage and I am OK with them being affected by his actions. His family won't disown him (they obviously don't mind the killing of animals). His employees can find other jobs. Apparently his 'sport' didn't bother them until this tragedy took place. So if they suffer a little along side, it was their choice.

Really? I am saddened by the death of the lion, I do think trophy hunters are repugnant and that it should be banned, but the level of vitriol raised in this thread and what I see playing out on the internet is disgusting.
The man has two children...they chose this? Do you seriously think his employees deserve to lose their jobs?