Massimiliano Ambesi and Angelo Dolfini's podcast about the judging system

Meoima

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Massimiliano Ambesi (the ITA Eurosport commentator) just had a podcast along with Angelo Dolfini for figure skating (and other winter sports). As someone who's been in and around figure skating, his thoughts are I think worth a read. There is already a translation of what they said.

It was pre-Nebelhorn, so the first part of it is slightly out of date the talk in Part 2 is very interesting. I like the remark about potential issues that may arise from essentially one school being so dominant in Russia.

I also recommend the Part 4 and the talk about the issues with the proposed new changes in the scoring. Please enjoy!

Full translation: https://the-a-factor-fs.tumblr.com/post/165975610600/kiss-cry-episode-1

Some interesting highlights:
There’s another problem though, one that nobody has talked about yet: looking into the future, the stronger girls all come from the same club: Medvedeva, from Tutberidze’s school, Zagitova, who reached almost 220 points in her senior debut, while no one had reached more than 200 in their first competition – Lombardia was inflated and all of that, but 220 points is huge. This girl does two Lutz, obviously talking about triples here, and two Flips in the second half of the program. When have we ever seen something like this? These are the most extreme programs in history, not counting those who had a Triple Axel. But then, even those who had one, didn’t have such extreme programs. Zagitova is, in theory, Tutberidze’s no.2, and the no.3 is Polina Tsurskaya, a possible perfect machine, if she didn’t have health problems. Regarding juniors, we have already talked about these girls who are dominating the grand prix: Trusova. We could call her the “total package”, because there’s everything there. Maybe she isn’t rewarded for it when it comes to PCS, but do you know why she isn’t? Because she is seen as small in the rink, kind of like a “Miyahara syndrome”, who was held back in PCS for years, until they realised that she was a great athlete, and then the judging towards her changed. Maybe it’s the same for Trusova, who is seen as small and tiny…and some say that she doesn’t “fill” the rink – and this is one of the most debatable things I have ever heard – and so she isn’t rewarded in PCS. This is an incredible skater. I invite you to look at Trusova’s programs without jumps, and see all the other things she does, spins and jumps aside. This is the next generation: Trusova, and Shcherbakova. Panenkova, who isn’t one of her best pupils, has won a JGP. Tarakanova, who is the newest in Tutberidze’s school, is amazing. And there are others, besides them.

There’s a risk here, when a single school dominates the entire field, it can’t be good for its balance. I think that, if there had been enough spots for Tutberidze’s girls, she could have had four girls in the Final, because there’s a girl who has only one Grand Prix assignment, in Poland – keep an eye on her – who would have reached the final had she gotten two events. All of this to explain the situation regarding one school. There’s incredible competition. Other schools are struggling more, CSKA included, and SPB is in decline, but that’s because some of these schools didn’t really understand how skating has evolved: it will suffice to look at Tuktamysheva, an incredible athlete… but with empty programs. It’s obvious that she cannot compete with Medvedeva, unless she can do two Triple Axels. If she can’t do that, it’s obvious that she can’t be competitive. So, as I was saying, a lot of domestic competition that might “ruin” some athletes. But to say that the system is twisted…seems wrong to me. It’s a system that offers some great quality, and obviously whoever has the most quality keeps going. If you miss an opportunity you can decline, if you are good you can make up for it throughout your career, why not? But this is part of the game, see swimming in the US, or even athletics.

And this part
I think this talk will go on, and it’s good that the ISU is trying to understand how to intervene. But to me, ISU should help others, help itself – to quote a cult sports movie, Jerry Maguire. A quote to say that ISU needs to ask for help from external people. To understand what kind of modification to do. To develop a software to understand the real progression of scores, how many athletes did go over the determined threshold. For example, in the modern era post-Vancouver, seven athletes in the men’s field went over 100 on TES in FS. It’s easy to tell their names, more or less they are all outstanding aces. Then let’s ask ourselves if, for those seven, it’s worth revolutionising everything. Maybe yes, maybe no, but let’s do an analysis.

In the ladies’ field, perfection on PCS is 80. Do you know how many athletes did go over 80 on TES? One. Evgenia Medvedeva in a competition that is midway between competition and show––the last World Team Trophy. I’ve no doubt she can reach 80 on TES in one of the next competitions too, but at the moment there’s only her. In the future, Zagitova, too, for sure, but right now it’s only Medvedeva.

For pairs, 8 times a pair went over 75 on TES. No one reached 80, which is again the highest PCS they can get. So there, the system works, why go and change it? Do you want to change it because this discipline is called “pattinaggio artistico” (t/n figure skating is literally “pattinaggio di figura”, but italian name for the sport is “pattinaggio artistico”, “artistic skating”) and, according to someone on top, there is little artistry right now? Then okay, let’s change the PCS coefficient factor but let’s leave the jump BV’s untouched. You can’t suppress technical development. It would mean going backwards.

Also because we can’t forget one important detail––that many seem to forget. After the half-scandal of Vancouver 2010 with Lysacek defeating Plushenko, also due to Plushenko’s own demerits because he needed to do little to win that gold medal, ISU decided to incentivize quad attempts. How? By increasing BV. So you increase it in 2010––correctly to incentivize technical development––and in 2018 you lower it because, according to you, technical development has put artistic growth in jeopardy? For me this is folly.
 
Max brought up my own personal issue with the weighting of the Team Event short and long program segments (not 1/3rd-2/3rd like in the individual events)... (I brought this up in the specific "Team Event" thread)

We have 10 countries, and the top 5 after the short program advance to the free skate. The problem is that points for the short program go from 1 (for 10th place) to 10 (for 1st place), while points in the free program go either from 6 to 10 or from 1 to 5, so it’s not 10 to the 1st, 8 to the 2nd, 6 to the 3rd, meaning it’s in fact the short program that shifts the weight. That’s where some of the countries we mentioned earlier come into play. For example, if Spain qualifies for the team event, they could tip the weight in the medal competition, not because Spain will get a medal at the Team Event (they won’t even qualify for the free skate), but because Javier Fernandez could steal points from some medal contenders in the short program.
 
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Under the two qualifying documents the ISU has released to date, Spain won't qualify for the TE unless a number of countries bow out of the Pairs individual event, and Spain has three competitors in three individual events. You don't get to use the Additional Athletes Quota for the TE unless you've qualified in three and only three individual events, and that includes the host.

Redistributing the points for the free to 10-8-6-4-2 instead of 10-9-8-7-6 was suggested multiple times before Sochi.

Since it will be RUS and CAN vying for gold, and USA and CHN vying for bronze, it's really how those countries hope for placement from others to place between each other, and, if it's closer than in Sochi, that includes the frees as well as the shorts. For example, RUS wants as many women between Medvedeva and Osmond or Daleman in the short, which means they're hoping JPN and maybe Kostner will, even with a strong performance from CAN. CAN wants as many dance teams between V/M and B/S, and they're hoping that P/C, a USA team, and ITA will do so. RUS wants Chan as close to its Man as possible, which means a first for JPN and a second for CHN, while CAN would love to see a least USA, if not CHN, too, get between Chan and the RUS Man (presumably Kolyada).
 
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Thank you for posting. Excellent reading. I agree with them on the proposed scoring changes. I absolutely wholeheartedly agree with their comments on PCS being judged/applied properly and that if they were, then there would not even be any need for mathematical changes to the bv etc...
 
Thank you for posting. Excellent reading. I agree with them on the proposed scoring changes. I absolutely wholeheartedly agree with their comments on PCS being judged/applied properly and that if they were, then there would not even be any need for mathematical changes to the bv etc...
The system isn’t at fault, it’s the people who are judging. Too bad ISU is blaming it on the system.
 
Since it will be RUS and CAN vying for gold, and USA and CHN vying for bronze, it's really how those countries hope for placement from others to place between each other, and, if it's closer than in Sochi, that includes the frees as well as the shorts. For example, RUS wants as many women between Medvedeva and Osmond or Daleman in the short, which means they're hoping JPN and maybe Kostner will, even with a strong performance from CAN. CAN wants as many dance teams between V/M and B/S, and they're hoping that P/C, a USA team, and ITA will do so. RUS wants Chan as close to its Man as possible, which means a first for JPN and a second for CHN, while CAN would love to see a least USA, if not CHN, too, get between Chan and the RUS Man (presumably Kolyada).
This team gold race is hilarious. It seems to me, these federations have new goal to strike for. Team gold does draw more attention from the public. I would say team event might be the future of skating event if they want to maintain public attention.
If they can’t develop strong individuals to win individual golds, team gold also brings a lot of publicity to the media. Like “Hey guys, our US team is so strong they’re on podium every time!”
 
New podcast is out here (in Italian):
https://www.spreaker.com/user/talk-sport/puntata-2

Topics:
Nebelhorn Trophy
Junior Grand Prix
Discussing reform of scoring system
Comparing SPs of Hanyu and Uno
Questions from listeners

I assume the same page linked above will provide a detailed translation. If not, I can summarize some bullet points.
 
Some interesting points (all of these are their points of view):

-Rizzo is already ahead in the race for Oly spot as his 3A is consistent and scored well both in Lombardia and Nebelhorn, they approve that he's 'home grown' in Italy and has good skating skills thanks to his parents being ice dance coaches.
-They expected Galustyan to qualify and that was a big surprise for them, they were impressed with Paganini
-They think US ladies at worlds were gifted with 3rd spot and Chen was overscored
-Oly qualifier should not have other countries that are not there to qualify, as that can shift skaters in the race out of the final groups (e.g. as it happened in pairs) and affect scores. I think this point is quite valid.
-S/M will be unbeatable if they land 3A
-Concerned that Italy, despite a good tradition in ice dance, doesn't have up and coming teams after the veterans C/L and G/F
-If results from Worlds were a team event, China would be ahead of the US.
They think it's CAN vs RUS for gold and CHN vs US for bronze at Team event Olys.
-discussion of judges at OG, ITA has no judge in any team event, RUS only one.
-they say Spain could participate to the team event, with their 2 qualified entries + taking a 3rd along (is this true?).
-they discuss if they could make new ice dance teams from different ones, who would they pick. They would pick Cizeron, Moir as male dancers, and Chock and Virtue as female dancers. They think male ice dancers in the current top teams are better than female ice dancers. They would pick Katsalapov for pure talent but he's a mess. They would match Poje with a russian ice dancer, but the current ones have no charisma. They also praise Papadakis.
-for pairs, Cong is their favourite male, Stolbova and Savchenko as ladies, but the problem is matching them. They like Sui but she's not the strongest in sbs jumps. They praise Duhamel as technical skater. They would pick Zhang for experience but not the highest quality of skating/interpretation. Praise for J/C too.

(more to come)
 
JGP discussion:
-St Pete school vs Tutberidze in Jr ladies. St Pete according to them are less complete and have less 'extreme' programs, Tutberidze ladies are becoming a 'trademark'. Russia currently dominating ladies but looking out for Japanese and Korean ladies.
-Men: Krasnozhon impressed with jumps. Rizzo could medal in the next JGPs (yes please!), but he might be tired also psychologically from Oly qualifier.

Scoring system:
-should the system follow roller skating and having artistic vs compulsory?
-they think system should stay the same with short and free, then the best skater combining PCS and TES in the same program wins.
-they agree that there should be some changes but not change the whole system, e.g. the GOEs reform could be good
-they suggest factorization could change in ladies and pairs to 0.9 in SP and 1.8 in FS to push on the artistic side. Men 1.2 in SP and 2.4 in FS, but keeping in mind that number of quads shouldn't affect PCS. But they need to think about the rest of the skaters, not just the top skaters in the change of scoring system.
-They think the system is not too bad, but it's the usage that is shifting skating towards one direction or the other (e.g. awarding high PCS based on quads, and that all PCS for one skater are similar instead of scoring the actual categories)

(more to come)
 
-Comparison of Hanyu and Uno SPs:
Uno presented already a compete program. 2 quads and moving the combo to second half compared to last year.
Hanyu didn't show his final SP. In training the first jump is usually a 4lz or loop. They think with a 4S to open he gets better scores (as his 4S is of better quality than the other jumps). But still, Hanyu is the one to beat as he gets +3 in all the jumps, given his entries and choreo elements before the jumps, and this is what makes the difference. This is where Hanyu is superior to Uno, as Shoma's entries are slightly easier. They discuss moving the combo to the second half. Hanyu chose to focus on the technical side, that's why he's keeping the same programs.
They discuss Chan, how could he catch up technically. He won't have such a technically difficult SP as for example is 3A is less reliable and doesn't have the same difficult entrances.
They praise Shoma for how he moves his upper body compared to the others, and that he is improving his basic skating, as he was criticized in the past for two footed skating so there is less this year in his SP. Amazing steps with changes of rythm. They discuss his conservative music choice.
Mention of Chen's 5 different quads. They discuss how fast the technical side has changed in this last quadriennial, and the mental and physical preparation to perform these programs. But anyways those who win are compete both technically and artistically. They discuss skaters maxxing out the scores.
They praise Jin as he has improved a lot and even if his upper body movements can improve, he is doing difficult things with his feet

(to be continued)
 
Questions from the listeners:
-what does Ambesi think of Cain/LeDuc's FS?
He likes the program (altho music choice is a bit 'extreme') as it's adrenaline from beginning to end, and Ashley leaves everything on the ice. Skated at its best it could be spectacular. They grew technically a lot, and he thinks it's Nina Mozer's touch. Both of them are strong single skaters.
-compare Medvedeva at Nepela vs Osmond at Autumn Classic.
Med's is overloaded in second half with jumps, they present different jumps. Lz and flip from Osmond are beautiful to see but the entrance is a bit flat/with dubious edge. Med's Lo is one of the best, it's a good strategy to put aside the Lz as they think her Lz deserves edge call. Med's SP is better than Osmond at this point as it's built to get all the points including entrances in the jumps. She stands out in how the exits of jumps are weaved in the rest of the program. Med has moved even more jumps in the second half, to keep up with internal competition (Zag). They love Osmond but they think she's still a step back even in PCS. Med's basic skating has improved a lot compared to when she won JW. But what seals the deal is consistency.
-Ambesi, if you were the coach, how would you set up Kostner's jump layout?
He would pick 3F-3T as combo for short and long. He think she's skating another sport compared to today's programs (e.g. Russian Jr ladies). Her interpretation is the best in the world and should deserve higher marks in this component compared to everybody else. Her edges during the steps are exceptional. They think her jumps have gotten a bit smaller. They think she could also go for quality in easier jumps and get +3s. Her problem is the free, where she can't keep up technically especially if she goes for 3T-3T as the doesn't have many jumps available. They then make some detailed suggestions on the jumps layout in the free. They wish she wouldn't have been 'caught' in the switch between the two systems, they wish they could see 15yo Kostner's jumps today.
-They are asked about pairs and dance in general, but they say they will focus on them in the next episode
-What do you think about V/M's SD music choice?
Rhumba is a more difficult pattern than last year and this is where the natural selection will happen. He thinks they tried too hard to choose outside the box, but it wasn't needed and he personally thinks they could have chosen something more classic. He thinks they are still better than everybody else in the pattern dance, as they grew up with compulsories. They say in general they were not too impressed with choices of songs that were trying too hard to fit in the latin rythms.
-who did you prefer between D/W and V/M?
They are both great and different. Charlie White with hockey skates could dance better than a lot of skaters. In 2014 D/W were ahead, but in other times V/M were better. D/W had to catch up a lot when they were younger, they worked extra hard, V/M had more talent. Moir is an extreme competitor, Virtue is ethereal.
 
I appreciate Max for doing these early season podcasts, a far more balanced analysis (i.e. give credit where credit is due) than some of the others (who don't seem to give an inch to their non-favourites).

That being said, it'll be interesting to see if Max can keep this frequency of podcasts going once the other winter sports he covers (biathlon, ski jumping , cross-country) commence their World Cup seasons next month.
 
they say Spain could participate to the team event, with their 2 qualified entries + taking a 3rd along (is this true?).
We had this argument ad nauseum in 2014 because of the clear language (NOT) the ISU uses in the Qualification document:

Each Team must participate in at least three (3) disciplines (Ladies Single Skating /Men Single Skating /Pair Skating/Ice Dance) of the Team Event. In order to compose a Team the NOCs, if necessary and applicable, can make one (1) entry (for one discipline) according to D.3.1. Additional Athletes Quota.

which reads as if a member can qualify for two individual events and use the AAQ for a third discipline and compete in the TE with only three.

Which turned out not to be the case for Sochi: the AAQ could only be used if the country qualified for three only in the individual events and wanted to add skaters for the fourth. Japan (Pairs) and Great Britain (Men)were going to use this option, but Japan Pairs made it off the alternates list in the individual event.
 
Granted, Finlandia isn't Worlds and it's not in Italy, but it's interesting to see that in the SP Kostner's PCS averaging over 9 and World Champions and World medallists Tuktamysheva's, Daleman's, and Leonova's averaging under 8, and that even after factoring, her total PCS are ~5 points higher in total.

It's not the 10 points she probably deserves, but, yay.
 
-Comparison of Hanyu and Uno SPs:
Uno presented already a compete program. 2 quads and moving the combo to second half compared to last year.
Hanyu didn't show his final SP. In training the first jump is usually a 4lz or loop. They think with a 4S to open he gets better scores (as his 4S is of better quality than the other jumps). But still, Hanyu is the one to beat as he gets +3 in all the jumps, given his entries and choreo elements before the jumps, and this is what makes the difference. This is where Hanyu is superior to Uno, as Shoma's entries are slightly easier. They discuss moving the combo to the second half. Hanyu chose to focus on the technical side, that's why he's keeping the same programs.
They discuss Chan, how could he catch up technically. He won't have such a technically difficult SP as for example is 3A is less reliable and doesn't have the same difficult entrances.
They praise Shoma for how he moves his upper body compared to the others, and that he is improving his basic skating, as he was criticized in the past for two footed skating so there is less this year in his SP. Amazing steps with changes of rythm. They discuss his conservative music choice.
Mention of Chen's 5 different quads. They discuss how fast the technical side has changed in this last quadriennial, and the mental and physical preparation to perform these programs. But anyways those who win are compete both technically and artistically. They discuss skaters maxxing out the scores.
They praise Jin as he has improved a lot and even if his upper body movements can improve, he is doing difficult things with his feet

(to be continued)
Max said more in details. Italian friends are translating so there will be full podcast in English soon.
 
Well, as I said, I translated the main points. I'm sure there will be a detailed translation later, but I thought people would still appreciate a summary, even if it's 'too short' :rolleyes:
I am not sure you can cover all what they said. And what a pity if people miss all what they said. The skating community needs more of these talks. That’s all.
 
Not sure about athletic background, but Max Ambesi's education/work background is not journalism, but law (PhD degree). His first foray into sports journalism was in fact biathlon/nordic sports (where he still probably gets the biggest overall viewing audience in Italy).

ETA, only a PhD or someone with some memory would be able to extract this:

...by the way she’ll (Carolina Kostner) be 31 at the next Olympics, you need to go back to 1924 Olympic Games to find a medalist over 30 years of age – Ethel Muckelt if I remember correctly.
 
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Ambesi is very knowledgeable, not just about historical facts but the actual rules and regulations and has a complete understanding of what makes jumps have quality, what are superior skating skills, spins, etc. He says the truth and doesn't sugar coat things, but also makes objective statements in the scope of the rules. I would say he's at least as knowledgeable - if not more - as the commentators who were actually skaters.
 
Ambesi is very knowledgeable, not just about historical facts but the actual rules and regulations and has a complete understanding of what makes jumps have quality, what are superior skating skills, spins, etc. He says the truth and doesn't sugar coat things, but also makes objective statements in the scope of the rules. I would say he's at least as knowledgeable - if not more - as the commentators who were actually skaters.
The third part, full translation https://the-a-factor-fs.tumblr.com/post/166669560580/kiss-cry-episode-3
 
Not sure about athletic background, but Max Ambesi's education/work background is not journalism, but law (PhD degree). His first foray into sports journalism was in fact biathlon/nordic sports (where he still probably gets the biggest overall viewing audience in Italy).

ETA, only a PhD or someone with some memory would be able to extract this:
I think he has invested a lot in Skating. If there is some master degree in winter sport, he might as well have it.
 

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