3Lutz-Eu-3Flip Combination

[ЭPiKUilyam]

I've wondered for a while why more skaters do not include this combination to increase their base value. Ekaterina Kurakova was the first I noticed who performed it. And now Alysa Liu has added it. I don't know why skaters don't do this, because it saves a jumping pass to add another difficult jump.

For instance, Anna Shcherbakova could do: 4flip-3toe, 4flip, 4lutz, 2axel/// 3lutz-Eu-3flip, 3lutz/flip-3loop, 3sal/2axel/3loop if the loop combo failed on the first jump. That is as packed as I think she can make it, and I think she should consider doing that. Also if she hits that combination she doesn't have to have a combo on either of her last two jumping passes and risk a REP deduction. Plus, Daria Usacheva has said that Sergei had her train 3flip-Eu-3flip to get her 3flip consistent, so the Eteri group is not unfamiliar with a --Eu-3flip combination.

Thoughts?

 

[Vagabond]

Thoughts?

The triple lutz and triple flip are difficult jumps, and not that many skaters can rotate both of them fully without receiving an edge call. There's no point using the 3Lz+1Eu+3F unless the skater stands a good chance of earning at least the full Base Value.

 

[Coco]

Ending with combinations that have the loop as a second jump seems like a bad idea.

But yes, I noticed one of the US Juniors was doing this combination in her free skate although I think she had a double flip at the end and not a triple, but obviously she must be working towards the triple.

If skaters have a hard time staying on the correct edge for the flip is it easier to maintain the correct edge if they enter from a half loop?

 

[skatingguy]

I've wondered for a while why more skaters do not include this combination to increase their base value. Ekaterina Kurakova was the first I noticed who performed it. And now Alysa Liu has added it. I don't know why skaters don't do this, because it saves a jumping pass to add another difficult jump.

For instance, Anna Shcherbakova could do: 4flip-3toe, 4flip, 4lutz, 2axel/// 3lutz-Eu-3flip, 3lutz/flip-3loop, 3sal/2axel/3loop if the loop combo failed on the first jump. That is as packed as I think she can make it, and I think she should consider doing that. Also if she hits that combination she doesn't have to have a combo on either of her last two jumping passes and risk a REP deduction. Plus, Daria Usacheva has said that Sergei had her train 3flip-Eu-3flip to get her 3flip consistent, so the Eteri group is not unfamiliar with a --Eu-3flip combination.

Thoughts?

It seems like a plausible jump layout, though I'm not sure Shcherbakova is going to be doing that many quads yet. She's landing them in practice, but let's see whether they go in the program during competition before upping the technical difficulty of her combinations in the 2nd half of the program. I think the question of the euler+flip combination is whether the rotation is going to be clean on the flip, and right now Sambo 70 has pretty good results with the salchow so why change anything. Liu's flip was underrotated.

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

I noticed Alysa was also attempting to put in a --3loop combo earlier this season, so I think her mathematics brain is working like mine. It seems to help someone with only one ultra jump or two ultras that include a 3axel and a quad, like Alysa hopes to do. Even better with an extra inconsistent quad like 4toe which she has practiced. Since her 3axel isn't a "money jump" for her anymore, she probably shouldn't repeat it and only just repeat her lutz and flips. Much less risk to repeat them than repeat a UR 3axel. Plus with a new --3loop combo she can really maximize her combinations.

I think what Alysa is/was shooting for is: 4lutz, 3axel, 2axel, 3sal/// 3lutz--Eu--3flip, 3lutz-3loop, 3flip-3toe.

It maximizes her backloaded BV. But yes, Alysa is struggling with her rotations, so maybe not her, but someone else in the future? Of course, if she (or anyone) learned the 3sal-3loop combo then her back half could be: 4lutz, 3axel, 3sal-3loop, 2axel /// 3lutz-3flip, 3lutz-(3toe) or 3flip-(3toe) which makes it easier and less pressure towards the end of the program.

Let's also bring back the 3sal-3loop combo!! Of course the only way it makes sense is if you have a --Eu-3flip combo. But hey every point counts. Ask Medvedyeva.

 

[MR-FAN]

I've wondered for a while why more skaters do not include this combination to increase their base value. Ekaterina Kurakova was the first I noticed who performed it. And now Alysa Liu has added it. I don't know why skaters don't do this, because it saves a jumping pass to add another difficult jump.

For instance, Anna Shcherbakova could do: 4flip-3toe, 4flip, 4lutz, 2axel/// 3lutz-Eu-3flip, 3lutz/flip-3loop, 3sal/2axel/3loop if the loop combo failed on the first jump. That is as packed as I think she can make it, and I think she should consider doing that. Also if she hits that combination she doesn't have to have a combo on either of her last two jumping passes and risk a REP deduction. Plus, Daria Usacheva has said that Sergei had her train 3flip-Eu-3flip to get her 3flip consistent, so the Eteri group is not unfamiliar with a --Eu-3flip combination.

Thoughts?

In this case it’s added risk for no reward. Scherbakova could just do a 3lutz-eu-3sal and a solo triple flip vs 3lutz-eu-3flip and a solo triple sal. Same jump content, less risk, and probably higher scores since GOEs might not be as high with the difficult lutz-eu-flip combo.

If ISU wants to encourage more difficult jump combos, they should reward the difficulty

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

In this case it’s added risk for no reward. Scherbakova could just do a 3lutz-eu-3sal and a solo triple flip vs 3lutz-eu-3flip and a solo triple sal. Same jump content, less risk, and probably higher scores since GOEs might not be as high with the difficult lutz-eu-flip combo.

If ISU wants to encourage more difficult jump combos, they should reward the difficulty

Yes, it's the same/similar BV, so Anna is not a good example. I think it makes more sense for someone with inconsistent ultra jumps who really shouldn't be repeating any. And also it's the --Eu-3flip part that matters, so a 3flip--Eu--3flip could also work. Take Maiia for instance with inconsistent 4toe, 4sal, and hopefully 3axel, she could compete with: 4toe, 4sal, 3axel, 3loop/// 3flip-Eu-3flip, 3lutz-3toe, 3lutz where she can add another combination wherever, plus it leaves open the prospect of 3sal-3loop (or 2axel-3lp). Maiia did compete with 3lutz-3loop in the elements phase of JrNats a few years ago so I think 3s-3lp is a doable combination considering how strong her 3sal is. I think it would also benefit someone like Alysa Liu if she did: 4lutz, 3axel, 2a, 3s-3lp/// 3f-eu-3f, 3lz-3toe, 3lz.

I'm just wondering why Team Eteri (or anyone for that matter) hasn't thought about the advantages of having a 3sal-3lp and a --Eu-3flip combo and making it standard when it applies to a certain skater. It's fun crunching numbers, lol.

 

[morqet]

I had to go back and rewatch Alex Johnson at US Nats 2013: https://youtu.be/Y-1AI1fXdiE?t=93

It was a good combo for him because he had no quad and reliable edges on both lutz and flip.