the saga of Jian Ghomeshi

[Artemis@BC]

Jian Ghomeshi fired from CBC.

As is usual in anything even remotely he-said-she-said, there are at least 2 sides, and we frequently never learn the real, full story.

In this case, we have so far The Star report, vs. Ghomeshi's open letter on Facebook. And it's only day 1.

I'm so saddened by this. I'd heard before that he wasn't the nicest guy away from the microphone -- and if he was indeed guilty of sexual harassment then the firing may indeed be justified. Firing him for behaviour away from the workplace ... well that's a much greyer area.

But there's no question that when he was on air he was brilliant interviewer and essayist, often able to shine a light in very dark times. His last essay, on the day after the Ottawa shootings, was one of his best. Staying United

 

[screech]

It will be interesting to see how things play out.

I have a friend who briefly dated him, and she has shared some not so nice details about him. Nothing was in the BDSM realm with them, and nothing was abusive, but she has said that he is definitely not a pleasant person, especially not as someone you're dating.

I never listened to his show, so I don't know much about his interviews, but I will say that I was a fan of his band Moxy Früvous back in the day.

 

[snoopy]

I don't see the reason for the firing. But a $50 mm lawsuit screams inflated ego. Just move on Jian. He would have gotten another job in a heart beat.

 

[Scrufflet]

Sad, sad, sad! I've read his Facebook account and the Star article and it seems to be a" he said/ she said" kind of thing so far. His on-air demeanor is so different; he seems so gentle and sensitive and I was really taken aback when I heard this. Top notch interviewer. I'm really going to miss his show.

 

[mag]

Here is an interesting article that IMHO is a must read if you are following this story.

http://sexgeek.wordpress.com/2014/10/27/poor-persecuted-pervert/

 

[Habs]

I find it very disturbing that so many people have been so quick to jump to Ghomeshi's defense. Social media has been full of "CBC sucks, Jian is a saint." I'm not saying he necessarily did anything wrong, but the automatic disregard of the women is shocking. No one really knows what happened, but the court of public opinion is clearly in Ghomeshi's favour (so far) - which is exactly the result he was looking for when he hired a PR firm like Navigator.

No wonder women are scared to come forward with accusations of abuse. Even his Facebook status made me uncomfortable. Not only was it TMI, it also reeked of the "BITCHES BE CRAZY" argument.

The thing is, Q is a popular show and Ghomeshi is/was a popular host. CBC isn't going to fire him over nothing, knowing there would be backlash and likely a lawsuit. They must have information that they're not sharing.

Again - I have no idea if he's guilty or not. Maybe he's misunderstood and is dealing with a vindictive ex. Or maybe he's a bad guy who did bad things. We may never know.

 

[screech]

I've read things (I can't remember where), where people who know him say that they will not be quick to defend him.

My friend (who works for CBC and is not involved in this legal issue) who briefly dated him never disclosed much detail about their relationship, but a few months after she ended things, we were at the Toronto Film Festival and when she saw him walking past she hid behind me and was very uncomfortable until he was out of our line of sight. As far as I know, nothing in the realm of BDSM or any kind of abuse happened with them, but based on her reaction to just seeing him passing by, I'm not jumping up to support him at this time.

And yes, they still worked in the same building, but didn't see each other at work, outside of any whole-staff events - at the time of TIFF she hadn't really seen him since she had ended things.

 

[Habs]

I've read things (I can't remember where), where people who know him say that they will not be quick to defend him.

I've been hearing/reading this too. A few media people I know are privately saying they're not surprised by any of this.

 

[snoopy]

CBC also had potential liability from their female employees. One employee already issued a complaint per one of the articles. If they felt Jian was creating a hostile work environment, they have an obligation to help correct it.

This is a case where the corporation is in a lose-lose - don't do anything and risk lawsuit from females employees (where CBC likely loses). Do something and risk lawsuit from Jian (where CBC likely loses).

 

[overedge]

I find it very disturbing that so many people have been so quick to jump to Ghomeshi's defense. Social media has been full of "CBC sucks, Jian is a saint." I'm not saying he necessarily did anything wrong, but the automatic disregard of the women is shocking.

OTOH I saw some things on Twitter yesterday that I found really bothersome, along the lines of "all women are discounted when they make accusations like this" and "every woman at some time has been terrorized by a man". Taking the he-said she-said story and blowing it up into "he's a man and therefore he is guilty" is not helpful either, and IMHO not fair to the many men who don't abuse women, and who actively work for justice for women who are abused.

No wonder women are scared to come forward with accusations of abuse. Even his Facebook status made me uncomfortable. Not only was it TMI, it also reeked of the "BITCHES BE CRAZY" argument.

I'm guessing his PR firm didn't see that one before he posted it. If they did, he needs a better PR firm.

 

[overedge]

It might be worth noting in the fuss around Ghomeshi's firing that approximately 400 non-famous CBC employees are going to lose their jobs in the near future. Which IMHO is far more damaging to CBC in the long run than losing him.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/10/24/cbc-cuts-layoffs_n_6044378.html

 

[MacMadame]

I find it very disturbing that so many people have been so quick to jump to Ghomeshi's defense. Social media has been full of "CBC sucks, Jian is a saint." I'm not saying he necessarily did anything wrong, but the automatic disregard of the women is shocking. No one really knows what happened, but the court of public opinion is clearly in Ghomeshi's favour (so far) - which is exactly the result he was looking for when he hired a PR firm like Navigator.

I think what he did on Facebook was brilliant. It totally set the tone and the parameters of the discussion. If it's what you read first, it's going to make it hard to hear the stories of his accusers.

This is a case where the corporation is in a lose-lose - don't do anything and risk lawsuit from females employees (where CBC likely loses). Do something and risk lawsuit from Jian (where CBC likely loses).

I think it's unlikely they'll lose this lawsuit. With the one woman complaining about sexual harassment in the workplace that we know about (there could easily be others that we don't know about) and with other women complaining that he was violent towards them and it being a He Said, She Said situation, and with him being the kind of employee that he is (on air talent) with the sort of contract he probably has (i.e., there could be clauses about needed to be representative of the CBC even in off-air behavior) I don't think he'll win his lawsuit.

In the US, a network can fire the on-air talent at any point they want if they decide that the person has done something that makes them no longer fit their brand. I don't know if it would be that different in Canada and with the CBC, which is government funded, but I can't imagine they don't have some recourse to get rid of employees that aren't in step with their ideals.

The other lawsuit, OTOH, was probably more winnable and I'm somewhat shocked that the CBC didn't really do anything about the other complaint but (essentially) pat the woman on the head and tell her it was her problem. That's not my idea of how sexual harassment would be handled in Canada. I'd expect that they'd at least talk to the guy about it.

 

[overedge]

If you're a unionized employee in Canada - and I believe that Ghomeshi belongs to either ACTRA or the Canadian Media Guild - you can't file a grievance *and* a lawsuit over the same events. So if Ghomeshi is serious about this $50 million lawsuit, he's going to have to drop the grievance which he also said he was going to file. Or vice versa.

 

[4rkidz]

This is very similar to my day job with client issues and I have learned over the years that there are always two sides to every story, he could be a sexual predator or he could just be into kinky sex, either way I find the truth usually prevails so I don't jump on any bandwagon too early.. But getting in front of the social media engine was smart on his side, will wait for the fall out now .. I have always enjoyed his interviewing skills , too bad.

 

[algonquin]

I don't see the reason for the firing. But a $50 mm lawsuit screams inflated ego. Just move on Jian. He would have gotten another job in a heart beat.

Good points.

 

[overedge]

Here's a lengthy but very good analysis of the Ghomeshi case in the context of Canadian law and previous cases:
http://lawofwork.ca/?p=7705

 

[Habs]

The lawsuit has been filed - he's seeking $55 million, alleging breach of confidence, bad faith and defamation.

Okay... as far as I can tell, CBC hasn't said anything publicly other than they're severing ties with him and wish him well in the future. So how can he sue them for breach of confidence and defamation?! They haven't said anything! He's the one who stated explicit details of his private life, not CBC. And, related to that, if he's so worried about defamation, wouldn't he be suing the Toronto Star as well/instead? This whole thing is strange.

This lawsuit against CBC looks like posturing. It has everything to do with PR and very little to do with financial entitlement.

 

[Andora]

I read yesterday the lawsuit against the CBC is partly to keep them from commenting on the situation any further. If that's true, that seems, well.... And his getting in front of the message with the Facebook post WAS brilliant. I also find it hard to swallow, the way he's demonizing the women involved.

I think he's mega talented, but that doesn't meant he's not capable of awful things. Being one of the faces of CBC's brand no doubt can inflate an already large ego.

OTOH I saw some things on Twitter yesterday that I found really bothersome, along the lines of "all women are discounted when they make accusations like this" and "every woman at some time has been terrorized by a man". Taking the he-said she-said story and blowing it up into "he's a man and therefore he is guilty" is not helpful either, and IMHO not fair to the many men who don't abuse women, and who actively work for justice for women who are abused.

Have people been been blowing up the story in that way? That he's guilty because he's a man? I've heard some comment that he's guilty because of some really negative experiences some women have had, not to mention a blind-item story that's generally attributed t him, but not just because he's a man.

 

[mag]

I guess a silver lining to this (if there can be one,) is that it has people talking about sexual assault and how victims are treated.

http://www.urbanmommies.com/exec-moms/thoughts-on-victimization-and-gian-ghomeshi/

I am sure there are also just as hideous stories out there about people who have been wrongfully accused. Hopefully by shining more light on the entire issue we can improve the way these cases are handled.

 

[overedge]

Have people been been blowing up the story in that way? That he's guilty because he's a man?.

The two lines I quoted are very close paraphrasing of Tweets I saw yesterday.

 

[PRlady]

I liked this story, partially for the concept of "Canadiansplaining."

http://gawker.com/jian-ghomeshi-a-guide-for-puzzled-americans-1651335935

 

[algonquin]

This is an interesting read.

​

http://business.financialpost.com/2...-even-if-hes-telling-the-truth/?__federated=1

If the CBC has convincing evidence that Ghomeshi was involved in non-consensual activities that constituted violence against women, he becomes a poisoned chalice and executives had no choice but to release him

 

[fsfann]

It has been so nice to read the comments here as opposed to everywhere on Facebook. It seems that everyone is rallying behind Ghomeshi, which shocks me as I have always felt that there msut be *something* fairly major against him for the CBC to give him the boot. I have read a few things online that make it apparent that he may not be the nicest person, especially in terms of handling rejection... I certainly don't think that what happens in the privacy of his bedroom between consenting adults is our business, but if he doesn't treat folks well who aren't interested in going to his bedroom, then I have no sympathy for him.

You certainly can't deny his talent as a radio host...I will miss him...

 

[TygerLily]

False allegations happen, so I've been trying to reserve any judgement for the court case. In fact, when it came out that the CBC had fired Ghomeshi and before his FaceBook post, my first reaction was, "I hope it's not some sex or drugs scandal that's not a good reason to fire someone." I liked him -- grew up loving Moxy Fruvous and woke up many morning to his Q essay -- so I was predisposed to believe in him. But then I read the FaceBook post, which, for me, was unconvincing at best.

Maybe I'm too aware of persuasive appeals, but his attempts to manipulate the readers' emotions were so obvious that I trust him less than I might have otherwise. Then, the soldier comment was particularly crass given the context of the past week, so he did not endear himself to me.

Yes, consensual BDSM is not a good reason to fire someone, but if there was non-consensual activity, and if he did inappropriately grope/proposition a woman who worked at Q, then I'm glad he was fired.

I also can't help but make a connection to Toronto's literary community, in which some people (women and men) are now speaking out about predatory behaviour:

While some of these predators have been operating for years without public acknowledgment or punishment, there has long been a shared back channel amongst women in Canadian literature – coded warnings relayed privately, chatter about who can be trusted and who is safe to be around. I have spoken with women from a variety of age groups in a variety of positions in the industry, each tentatively naming names, testing the waters of dialogue to see how safe it is before we dive in, each terrified of what will happen if it comes out that they have said something.

(http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts...-the-canadian-literary-world/article21142628/, para. 7)

There may be no parallel to Toronto's music/radio world or Ghomeshi in particular, but it's easy to imagine an alternate narrative to the "scorned ex" who is now colluding with others to fabricate these allegations. Maybe "a story like this is a password. Once you say it out loud, doors start to open" (http://thehairpin.com/2014/10/stories-like-passwords, para. 3).

Edit: I should've read the Gawker piece before commenting because it is a confirmation (other than anonymous posts on other boards) that indeed there have been similar rumours about Ghomeshi's conduct in media communities:

Exhibit A: the standard joke among my 25-40-year-old Canadian friends is that we'll all now have to explain to our parents that there have long been rumors that Ghomeshi-the-person (rather than the celebrity) is not-so-nice. These rumors have been passed around in a certain Toronto-dwelling, media-adjacent demographic for longer than I care to remember. So much so that when the news of just the firing broke yesterday afternoon, I immediately suspected we were about to hear allegations of sexual misconduct. Which we promptly did. (http://gawker.com/jian-ghomeshi-a-guide-for-puzzled-americans-1651335935, near the end)

 

[PRlady]

I am very puzzled. Because at the moment there is a parallel set of scandals going on in the atheist/humanist world where gender relations are by many accounts poisonous. And you all may be aware of the Gamergate controversies in the online gaming world.

Either we are having a moment where a lot of young-ish women who may not have previously identified as feminist just get fed up and tell the truth...or the whole "rape culture" thing is out of control and ordinary jerky behavior is being re categorized.

FWIW, here's an older blind post about Jian in which he just sounds like a creep: http://www.xojane.com/it-happened-to-me/non-date

 

[MacMadame]

So earlier I said I thought it was unlikely that he'd win his lawsuit but that I wasn't familiar with Canadian law. This article says that it's about what I thought and that it's unlikely he'll win his lawsuit:

http://business.financialpost.com/2...-even-if-hes-telling-the-truth/?__federated=1

 

[overedge]

You certainly can't deny his talent as a radio host.

I can. His show was waaaay too much about himself, and he is one of the most kiss - ass suck - up interviewers I've ever heard. And at 47 he is a little too old to be trying to work the Queen Street hipster persona.

 

[Karina1974]

His on-air demeanor is so different; he seems so gentle and sensitive and I was really taken aback when I heard this. Top notch interviewer.

I was involved with a guy who turned out to be a sociopath, and whose behavior would surprise a lot of people who would claim to "Know him well." Scary to look back and see how many people almost worship this guy, but it doesn't change the fact that he is a compulsive liar, cheater, and user of women for whom one just is not enough (he had a girlfriend and multiple OW's). I've seen FB posts where he lies to his own family.

Yet, when you first meet him (especially if he decides to target you as he did me), he comes across as the nicest, sweetest, most knowledgeable person *you* have ever met. If you are a woman and he makes you a target for "conquest," he really lays on the charm to the point of cliche. He makes a point to target women with weak self-esteem, not strong-minded women who don't need to prop themselves up with a relationship in order to feel good about themselves.

 

[Scrufflet]

I was involved with a guy who turned out to be a sociopath, and whose behavior would surprise a lot of people who would claim to "Know him well." Scary to look back and see how many people almost worship this guy, but it doesn't change the fact that he is a compulsive liar, cheater, and user of women for whom one just is not enough (he had a girlfriend and multiple OW's). I've seen FB posts where he lies to his own family.

Yet, when you first meet him (especially if he decides to target you as he did me), he comes across as the nicest, sweetest, most knowledgeable person *you* have ever met. If you are a woman and he makes you a target for "conquest," he really lays on the charm to the point of cliche. He makes a point to target women with weak self-esteem, not strong-minded women who don't need to prop themselves up with a relationship in order to feel good about themselves.

You may find it interesting to read Heather Mallick's article today in the Toronto Star (sorry, I've never been able to master links). And I want to thank everyone in this thread who posted some very good links as well. This story is far from over.

 

[mag]

Christie Blatchford has spoken: http://www.canada.com/news/Blatchfo...le+bullying/10329553/story.html?__federated=1

I do believe strongly in innocent until proven guilty, but this kind of journalism bugs me. She glosses right over the sexual harrassment in the workplace piece, which is what I suspect got Ghomeshi fired. I know it is an opinion piece, and I shouldn't have high expectations for Blatchford, but a little more balance would have been nice.