Vaytsekhovskaya's interview with Irina Slutskaya

[Bonjour Sherry]

If I would rank the SLC ladies' short, it would be: Slutskaya, Kwan, Cohen, Sebestyen, Suguri, Butyrskaya, Hughes, Meier, Gusmeroli, Robinson, and Fontana. Slutskaya and Sebestyen were the best technically, but Sebestyen was weak on the second mark.

I was a big Slutskaya fan back in the day, but her skating does not hold up well AT ALL with IJS eyes and maybe more educated eyes. As an example, I’d have no problem placing her 4th in the free skate at 2000 Worlds with her lack of spins, choreography, and telegraphing of all jumps.

Just curious, who did you think had programs or skating that held up under IJS eyes at the time?

To me none of Slutskaya's contenders were better than her.. Kwan was a complete skater and she didn't front-load like Slutskaya, but she had easier spins. Butyrskaya had good jumping technique and textbook lutz, but her spins were weaker than Kwan and Slutskaya's. Hughes obviously does not hold up well. Gusmeroli front-loaded too much at 2000 Worlds, Cohen had jump technique issues, etc. ...

 

[tony]

Just curious, who did you think had programs or skating that held up under IJS eyes at the time?

To me none of Slutskaya's contenders were better than her.. Kwan was a complete skater and she didn't front-load like Slutskaya, but she had easier spins. Butyrskaya had good jumping technique and textbook lutz, but her spins were weaker than Kwan and Slutskaya's. Hughes obviously does not hold up well. Gusmeroli front-loaded too much at 2000 Worlds, Cohen had jump technique issues, etc. ...

Slutskaya had the potential to do more with her spins but in her free skates, especially Carmen, they were all throw-away elements with minimal revolutions aside from the combo spin. Her footwork in that program was pretty listless too, so we are just left with a bunch of stroking and preparing for jumps really. Much better short program content than free skate, although Don Quixote was a step up I think.

Butyrskaya had great spins- they were centered and held well. She had one of the best camel spins and prior to 2001 had a wonderfully unique combo spin with a sit/scratch featuring her hands clasped behind her back. I know American commentators liked to rip her layback apart because of the free leg, but it wasn’t that bad, and she always tried to do different variations of arms/leg position.

Sebestyen had a severe lip, as did Meier, so they were essentially both repeating the Lutz in the short and even then it should’ve been penalized pretty severely.

Gusmeroli, aside from that disastrous and boring 2002 LP choice, would’ve done really well in IJS I think, especially in the short programs. Kwan’s skating, at least through 2001, would’ve held up as the best. I also think Butyrskaya would’ve been rewarded for her basic skating quality- something that was really overlooked IMO. She had strong basics and wonderful edges.

 

[Bonjour Sherry]

@Tony Wheeler that's a pretty solid analysis. I think Slutskaya's LPs may not have held up well, but definitely her SPs.

Angela Nikodinov also had textbook technique and good basics, which would be rewarded under either system. But I also thought her programs were relatively simple compared to her peers, so she'd probably get lower BVs on her spins.
She also lacked in transitions, relatively speaking.

 

[tony]

@Tony Wheeler that's a pretty solid analysis. I think Slutskaya's LPs may not have held up well, but definitely her SPs.

Angela Nikodinov also had textbook technique and good basics, which would be rewarded under either system. But I also thought her programs were relatively simple compared to her peers, so she'd probably get lower BVs on her spins.
She also lacked in transitions, relatively speaking.

Nikodinov was no different than most skaters in the sense that they were doing what would now probably be base-level elements or maybe level 1, because that’s all they really needed. She would’ve been destroyed in the standings with her doubled jumps, though. There was one season in IJS where she won Skate America and then a few weeks later dropped all the way to last place IIRC in her second event in China- maybe not last but definitely last in the free skate.

 

[VGThuy]

It's hard for me to really judge these skaters retroactively under IJS because their program composition, development as younger skaters, and strategies with improving certain elements, etc. would be wholly different than what they gave us and they would look like different skaters in their prime.

 

[tony]

It's hard for me to really judge these skaters retroactively under IJS because their program composition, development as younger skaters, and strategies with improving certain elements, etc. would be wholly different than what they gave us and they would look like different skaters in their prime.

Totally agree. It’s impossible to do a ‘well this person should have won’ using a completely different system as a basis. But I still stand by being shocked how little was going on in Slutskaya’s LP in 2000, and I remember several others felt the same upon rewatching. I think we (judges included) were all hoping for a big rivalry back then and maybe hyped her up more.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I would have given the World bronze to Granny over Kwan in Dortmund. She had nice speed, very good spins, and spectacular jumps

 

[David21]

I was a big Slutskaya fan back in the day, but her skating does not hold up well AT ALL with IJS eyes and maybe more educated eyes. As an example, I’d have no problem placing her 4th in the free skate at 2000 Worlds with her lack of spins, choreography, and telegraphing of all jumps.

To say that Slutskaya's skating "does not hold up well AT ALL with IJS eyes", given that Slustkaya won the first Worlds that was used under that system and given that she was very successful also in plenty of other figure skating competition under that judging system is a, to put it nicely, "interesting" opinion.

Also, Slutskaya did not telegraph all of her jumps at 2000 Worlds but it's an "interesting" opinion as well

 

[tony]

To say that Slutskaya's skating "does not hold up well AT ALL with IJS eyes", given that Slustkaya won the first Worlds that was used under that system and given that she was very successful also in plenty of other figure skating competition under that judging system is a, to put it nicely, "interesting" opinion.

Also, Slutskaya did not telegraph all of her jumps at 2000 Worlds but it's an "interesting" opinion as well

Maybe better put- Slutskaya’s skating, before the switch to IJS and being one of the few skaters to master getting high levels with high GOE, isn’t quite as good as I once thought it was, and most of it has to do with her free skates. I’m a big fan of so many of her programs, but Carmen and Tosca are two that really didn’t work for me.

ETA- my favorites would be Adagio pour piano, Culture, Serenade, Timeless, even Samson & Delilah and Schindlers List.

Regarding Carmen, the Lutz was telegraphed, the first Salchow featured crossovers and prepping for an entire circle in the middle of the ice, a second Salchow following that was also telegraphed and then a 3 rev flying camel. There’s really nothing going on besides crossovers in this opening. Second Lutz, all attempt at choreo is stopped halfway down the rink and she literally holds a still position to prep for it. The footwork wasn’t started anywhere near the end of the rink and was done kinda half-energy, even if she did turn in both directions which wasn’t so common then. Second flip- same thing as the second Lutz. All choreo stopped to glide and prepare for the jump. The spiral sequence, although a throwaway element for almost all skaters not Kwan or Bobek in that era, was REALLY thrown away, holding each of the first two positions for less than a second. 3T at the end, like all of her previous toe jumps, she stops to prepare for the jump very obviously. Final layback, 6 slowish revolutions.

The 3Lo with the three-turns to enter and maybe the 2A are the only instances here where the jumps weren’t highly telegraphed, so I suppose you’re right that it wasn’t every jump

 

[Bonjour Sherry]

I would have given the World bronze to Granny over Kwan in Dortmund. She had nice speed, very good spins, and spectacular jumps

Wow, so we're going to talk about 2004 Worlds also? On that topic, Granny only landed four triples in the long program and three in the qualifying round IIRC. Not what I would call a medal-winning outing in an extremely strong field.

 

[kwanfan1818]

To say that Slutskaya's skating "does not hold up well AT ALL with IJS eyes", given that Slustkaya won the first Worlds that was used under that system

It wasn't until the technical panel became responsible for calling under-rotations and edge calls that IJS moved away at all from 6.0 judging. I would argue Slutskaya won 2005 Worlds through 6.0 eyes.

 

[bardtoob]

To say that Slutskaya's skating "does not hold up well AT ALL with IJS eyes", given that Slustkaya won the first Worlds that was used under that system and given that she was very successful also in plenty of other figure skating competition under that judging system is a, to put it nicely, "interesting" opinion.

Also, Slutskaya did not telegraph all of her jumps at 2000 Worlds but it's an "interesting" opinion as well

Good gawd! Ugly Biellmania ... In this spin, in that spin, in this spiral ...

 

[VGThuy]

I think Tony meant the programs she did under 6.0 didn’t hold up but she herself was able to adapt to IJS back in 2005 when the change was made. Her IJS LPs certainly were different from her early 2000 ones.

 

[bardtoob]

2005 Worlds ... That year they, for some reason, included points from the qualifying round ... Had they not, Kwan, Cohen, and Slutskaya would have been on the podium, as expected.

 

[tony]

2005 Worlds ... That year they, for some reason, included points from the qualifying round ... Had they not, Kwan, Cohen, and Slutskaya would have been on the podium, as usual.

Points from QR were used from 1999-2006.

 

[bardtoob]

Points from QR were used from 1999-2006.

Not cumulative and arithmetically, except at 2006 Worlds. Also, no other ISU events or Championships had 3 rounds.

 

[VGThuy]

Points from QR were used from 1999-2006.

I'm glad they don't do that anymore. What was more hurtful, factored points via 6.0 or cumulative points from IJS?

 

[bardtoob]

I'm glad they don't do that anymore. What was more hurtful, factored points via 6.0 or cumulative points from IJS?

Is it Worlds where they give tiny medals?

If so, it would be pretty dumb that Kwan could get two tiny medals for two 3rds but no large medal while Kostner could get no tiny medals but a big medal.

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

377 posts about Slutskaya? I can't even fathom.

Let's be real. Her success was due to that Russian flag next to her name. Our ladies in that era,like Amber Corwin or Brittney McConn could have been just as successful with Russian politics in their favor.

-BB

 

[Japanfan]

Let's be real. Her success was due to that Russian flag next to her name.

Wrong.

Our ladies in that era,like Amber Corwin or Brittney McConn could have been just as successful with Russian politics in their favor. -BB

And Brittney who?

 

[VGThuy]

I'm not the biggest Irina fan and I'll always think if both were clean Kwan should win hands-down, but let's get some facts straight. Irina was a super strong spinner in an era where spins were not valued the way they should have been. She has that glide and power to impress anybody. She skated FAST and I heard nothing but reports of how impressive she is live. She also had that spring to her jumps that made them amazing. You can tell from her glide that she had the potential to do what she did once IJS came around. The amount of ice she could cover on one-foot served her well. And when she was on, she was effervescent.

 

[bardtoob]

377 posts about Slutskaya? I can't even fathom.

Let's be real. Her success was due to that Russian flag next to her name. Our ladies in that era,like Amber Corwin or Brittney McConn could have been just as successful with Russian politics in their favor.

-BB

Amber Corwin - Russia

https://youtu.be/nIyVh6Jqv6w

 

[lala]

Amber Corwin - Russia

https://youtu.be/nIyVh6Jqv6w

40.30? Hardly enough to a medal anywhere...

But I'm missing the spirals..

 

[Loves_Shizuka]

It's been far too long since I watched Amber Corwin.

377 posts about Slutskaya?

Probably only about half.

 

[David21]

Not cumulative and arithmetically, except at 2006 Worlds. Also, no other ISU events or Championships had 3 rounds.

Euros didn't have three rounds in some years and the qualy points/marks didn't count? Somehow I remember differently

The 3Lo with the three-turns to enter and maybe the 2A are the only instances here where the jumps weren’t highly telegraphed, so I suppose you’re right that it wasn’t every jump

Thanks, at least you can admit that The second salchow clearly wasn't telegraphed, either.

 

[bardtoob]

Euros didn't have three rounds in some years and the qualy points/marks didn't count? Somehow I remember differently

Please do tell! Were the cumulative and arithmetic?

Thanks, at least you can admit that The second salchow clearly wasn't telegraphed, either.

Gawd, in the article Irina admits she telegraphed.

IS: That’s something to thank my mom. After every competition we would sit down and go through Michelle Kwan’s programmes in details. Mom would tell me stuff like: see, you beat her on a lutz, but she beat you on a spiral. Here while you are doing one jump it’s enough time for Michelle to land two.

 

[stlcomet]

377 posts about Slutskaya? I can't even fathom.

Let's be real. Her success was due to that Russian flag next to her name. Our ladies in that era,like Amber Corwin or Brittney McConn could have been just as successful with Russian politics in their favor.

-BB

I'm not a huge fan of Irina's skating at all. She's my today's Zhenya to Alina because I LOVE Butyrskaya and Zagi and you can't LOVE two skaters from the same country unless it's your own, duh. LOL.

But even I know that Irina, the anomaly that she was/is, was clearly an elite, ground breaking, record making athlete with exceptional talent who worked hard and was dedicated to her craft. She would have been a medalist no matter the country she represented and to compare her to a poor Amber....you're even more delusional than Irina!

Now I need to go take another shower and try to scrub really hard to find my soul again because you made me defend Russia AND Irina Slutskaya in a single post and therefore I Voldemort'd myself.

 

[David21]

Please do tell! Were the cumulative and arithmetic?

Why don't you answer my question first?

Gawd, in the article Irina admits she telegraphed.

Incorrect. She only says what her mum told her. She doesn't admit any telegraphing herself. And even if she did, it would be mostly irrelevant for discussing a particular free skate.

 

[WillyElliot]

Nikodinov was no different than most skaters in the sense that they were doing what would now probably be base-level elements or maybe level 1, because that’s all they really needed. She would’ve been destroyed in the standings with her doubled jumps, though. There was one season in IJS where she won Skate America and then a few weeks later dropped all the way to last place IIRC in her second event in China- maybe not last but definitely last in the free skate.

I was at that Skate America, I forget where maybe Pittsburg, and she REALLY didn't deserve to win. As lovely a skater as she was, she never really stretched herself to do harder elements. Besides her trademark layback, she really was a mediocre spinner with very basic positions and minimal revolutions. Her spins were really just throwaways. And the fact that she'd start doubling after the halfway mark like clockwork, and her listless presentation, well, she wasn't really putting out competitive programs.

 

[tony]

Why don't you answer my question first?

2005 and 2006 only Worlds had a qualifying round. It was dropped from Euros with the introduction of IJS. But from 99-04, it was at all ISU Championships besides 4CC