U.S. Men in 2017 - articles & latest news

[FSfan107]

Well it doesn't really matter anymore. Jeremy had some tremendous skates on the GP and at Nationals, but he was prone to nerves at Worlds and the Olympics. I don't know how the U.S. fed didn't support him during the Even/Johnny era when they were more than willing to give him the National title. 2009 and 2010 Nationals were not back to back competitions so I don't know how two competitions a year apart build the case that he was consistent.

 

[olympic]

Just a random thought: Jason oozes charisma and does such a good job maintaining his choreography throughout a program, I wonder if he should pull a Mirai (hands down and cross overs) and just skate into the 4T attempt as if it were practice then pick up the choreography afterwards, if it were to help him land it. The judges would probably still reward him w/ high PCS anyway due to rep.

 

[yossalu]

^^ I disagree with the total emphasis by Plushenko that quads and jumps specifically are the be-all, end-all for the sport of figure skating. If jumps are that important, another sport should be created along the lines of: X-treme Jumping Feats On-Ice. That's the problem and the dilemma. We are so far afield now of how the sport began and the important balance between art and sport. I know jump aficionados enjoy making fun of the art and performance side of the sport. But once again, as the sport tilts further and further toward emphasis on the jumps, fs (particularly men's and ladies) is fast becoming something else.

Plushenko does mention the artistic aspects of the sport and emphasizes that Hanyu does not need the most quads, but he's right that quads are and should be the most important part of men's skating. Sports are about pushing the limits further and further. I miss seeing the artistry of professional skating, but Olympic sports should be sports first and foremost. I also don't think those who want to see the sport move forward athletically want it to completely regress artistically. There are many skaters who can give us both and I am encouraged to see Nathan working on the other side of the equation and pulling back on some of his quads in the early part of this season while he gets comfortable with the choreography and performance. He's not there yet but it bodes well for his future.

I sort of wrote off Boyang's chances last year because of his shortcomings on PCS and Chen's growth in the middle of the season, but he certainly proved himself. That being said, if they all skate what they're capable of I believe it will shake out just as Plushenko predicts. But when does that ever happen? If Nathan looks the way he did last February in South Korea this February he will be very formidable and hard to keep off the podium.

I think it's an exaggeration to say that Jeremy was 'very inconsistent, even back in those days.' If that was the case, Jeremy would not have been able to ace U.S. Nationals competitions in 2009 and 2010 with two perfect performances both years.*

Abbott will always be one of my favorites (points to avatar), but it was hard to know what to expect from him internationally. He followed up his 2008 GPF victory and first national title with a 5th place at 4CC and 11th at Worlds. He came in 4th at the GPF in 2009. He should have certainly been considered ahead of Weir, but his domestic career far outpaced his international one. That 2011 snub really was ludicrous, though, and the USFSA didn't do him any favors.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Jason was pretty close on 4T at SC. Leaned back just a little. I wonder if they should have Alexander Ouriashev take a look; it certainly hasn't hurt Uno any. I fantasize that with a tiny adjustment Jason could do these jumps.

 

[Carolla5501]

If quads aren't the only factor then Plushy's whining about this failure to win Gold last time has no basis..... so of course he has to say that's the most important.

But personally I am not placing bets on the OGM based on his endorsement... after all he thought pelvic thrusting was a brilliant transition move LOL!

 

[Kultakissu]

Jason was pretty close on 4T at SC. Leaned back just a little. I wonder if they should have Alexander Ouriashev take a look; it certainly hasn't hurt Uno any. I fantasize that with a tiny adjustment Jason could do these jumps.

It's pretty clear it's 99% nerves now. Apparently he did multiple nice quads in practice and even in the warmup at SC but just hesitated a tiny bit too much in the actual performance.

 

[VGThuy]

It shows you how one thing can really become a mental block. It seems Jason isn't nervy about most skating-related things because he tends to skate pretty/very well under pressure, but the quad is the one thing that he seems to have nerves about. Maybe because people keep anticipating it and he has a lot of pressure to land a completely rotated one cleanly and consistently.

 

[Wyliefan]

I can't help thinking his coach would have been wiser to get him to keep putting quads in competition instead of insisting on holding off until they were perfect. The other guys got used to performing them under pressure; Jason's had a lot of catching up to do in that department.

 

[LilJen]

Doesn't the closing choreo of Rippon's free depict a bird pulling in a broken wing? If so, it's ironic that he separated his shoulder. May he heal quickly and fully.

OW! Paging Yuko Kawaguti for tips on how to cope with a dislocated shoulder.

 

[Mrs. P]

I can't help thinking his coach would have been wiser to get him to keep putting quads in competition instead of insisting on holding off until they were perfect. The other guys got used to performing them under pressure; Jason's had a lot of catching up to do in that department.

Jason attempted the 4T in the SP at 4CC 2015 and it was not good. He messed up the 3A too and he ended up out of the final group after the SP. They opted out of it at Worlds 2015 so he could keep 3 spots for Team USA.

Since the 2015-2016 season, Jason's pretty much attempted at least one quad in every competition he entered, except for 2016 Team Challenge Cup, when he was returning after being out most of the season and 2017 Nationals and 2017 4CC when he was still trying to recover from his stress fracture. I guess he could have tried it in the SP too.

I think he's on his own timing and he's not going to let what others do change that. I'm not really concerned. He did enough at Skate Canada to get a shot at GPF. I'm hoping for better at NHK.

 

[feraina]

It shows you how one thing can really become a mental block. It seems Jason isn't nervy about most skating-related things because he tends to skate pretty/very well under pressure, but the quad is the one thing that he seems to have nerves about. Maybe because people keep anticipating it and he has a lot of pressure to land a completely rotated one cleanly and consistently.

I don't know if it's necessarily about nerves. Most top-level male skaters interviewed about the quad sas that it's different from a triple in that it really has to be perfect in order to work out, that even the slightest error will cause it not to turn out well, whereas with triples you can still correct it mid-air or something.

So maybe Jason is not more nervous about the quad, but the slight amount of nerves that exist for all of his jump causes a much more visible error on the quad than his other jumps, due to the smaller margin of error for his quad. He sure doesn't look much more nervous about the quad than the other jumps, compared to, say, Mao Asada on her 3A, or Ashley Wagner on her 3-3.

Sometimes it's not really about the nerves either, just that little bit of extra adrenaline that you get from competing in front of a large audience might make you mistime a jump or make some other slight error. I get the feeling that Jason is more likely to get an adrenaline rush rather than the nerves from competing in front of a crowd.

 

[Bellanca]

Good luck to Max!! Grant!! and Vincent!! @ CoC. Cheering madly for all of you!!!

 

[misskarne]

*drops the SP result into the thread and wanders off to bed*

5. Max AARON 83.11
7. Grant HOCHSTEIN 80.55
8. Vincent ZHOU 80.23

 

[Sylvia]

Olympic Channel videos in skate order:
Grant [42.68/37.87]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdIp3HXx1m0
Vincent [45.66/36.57 -2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gECjHsNeFwk
Max [44.50/38.61]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CodEOfxVrII

Max did an interview via Skype with a local Arizona NBC news affiliate before Cup of China: http://www.12news.com/sports/nothin...-olympic-hopeful-ready-for-his-shot/487935879

 

[olympic]

Max did well enough- He continues to land 2 different quads in the SP. The 2 foot on the 4T wasn’t egregious. It looked like his free foot scraped the ice and wasn’t a balance check. It’s a shame he touched on the 3A. He can get 2 GOE when he is clean so he lost nearly 3 points there. Overall, he attacks and looks really committed.

Too bad Vincent fell. He would be around 3rd if he went clean. That 4-3 was amazing. Ironically, despite the 2 falls, I think he was close to a PB

 

[misskarne]

I think Max and Vincent's scores are too close together considering Vincent had a splat-fest and Max was pretty good. But anyway, I know what that'll be called, so I'll shut my mouth.

I'm still completely in love with that step sequence of Max's. It works so well for him. Here's hoping he goes perfectly clean tonight. I've seen that pretty 4T before Max; show it to us again.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Still don't understand Max.

When he was skating the program I just thought he still doesn't know who he is yet as a skater. I said this Les Mis is still not him.

I kept thinking how Crouching Tiger would be so right for him and then LOL sure enough Jin steps onto he ice and skates to it.

If I could pick what I feel is the perfect program for him it would be Totentanz.

If people feel Vince is to close in score to Max well so is Zagitova for one fall as well. She like 10ths of a point behind for a fall on a major requirement.

If he rotates that quad lutz and gets them around I guess falls don't really matter all that much. As long as its rotated.

I DO wish I could get into Max.... but he's falling off my radar.

I feel Nathan's music and programs are so him, and I feel Jason's programs are so him.

Now that i think of it Jin's Spiderman from last year would be good for Max. I think Jin and Max are alike as skaters and Max should take some notes from Jin as far as programs..... Because they do work for Jin IMO. I feel Max is still searching for whats him.

 

[Vagabond]

Wow, his music is snooze-inducing.

So that's why he's wearing blue velvet pajamas!

 

[aftershocks]

Well it doesn't really matter anymore. Jeremy had some tremendous skates on the GP and at Nationals, but he was prone to nerves at Worlds and the Olympics. I don't know how the U.S. fed didn't support him during the Even/Johnny era when they were more than willing to give him the National title. 2009 and 2010 Nationals were not back to back competitions so I don't know how two competitions a year apart build the case that he was consistent.

I'm talking about full backing and support in terms of believing in Jeremy and showing that they had confidence in him, especially after 2010 Olympics. What Jeremy earned, he earned on his own due to his talent, It was only after his 2012 comeback that U.S. fed began to value and respect Jeremy more. But Jeremy's momentum (and maybe some confidence) had been lost with the lack of 100% backing and encouragement circa 2010 - 2011. During Evan-Johnny years, Evan was always favored over everyone else regardless of his mistakes. Granted Evan worked hard and showed determination even though he did not have as much natural talent as Johnny and Jeremy.

2009 and 2010 are back-to-back competitive wins at U.S. Nationals, which is clearly what I was referencing. And all credit to Jeremy for pulling out wins by being perfect in sp and fp those years, since Evan was a favorite of USFS from the time he came on the senior scene in 2005 until he stopped competing eligibly after 2010 Olympcs with gold medal in hand. At 2011 U.S. Nats, Ryan Bradley was the favorite over Jeremy. The rest is history.

Fortunately, the over-favoritism isn't quite as overtly rampant these days, though it still exists to a degree.

Good luck to Vincent and Max in the fp at CoC. If Vincent skates better in the fp, it will be interesting to see how far he can pull up.

 

[aftershocks]

Now that i think of it Jin's Spiderman from last year would be good for Max. I think Jin and Max are alike as skaters and Max should take some notes from Jin as far as programs..... Because they do work for Jin IMO. I feel Max is still searching for whats him.

Maybe Lori can work some magic for Max (as she sure has helped Jin Boyang, with a little of the inspiration she gained from doing choreo for Nathan, methinks).

Unfortunately the way Max is viewed is not unlike the way judges assess skaters like Wakaba Higuchi, Ito, and Bonaly based on snobby aesthetic standards and notions surrounding physicality, as well as quad rep in the case of men. Max has definitely worked hard and improved his aesthetics, but judges are quicker to give Boyang the PCS boost than Max.

 

[oleada]

Unfortunately the way Max is viewed is not unlike the way judges assess skaters like Wakaba based on snobby aesthetic standards and notions surrounding physicality, as well as quad rep in the case of men.

Yeah, that's not it. Max does not have good skating skills, doesn't have the same speed as the some of the other top men, and his programs are really empty. Plus, he doesn't engage the audience or connect with the music either. No idea what you mean about quad rep, because, to his credit, Max has been landing quads for much longer than most US men. It's everything else that needs work. I don't know what Tom Z and Max were thinking with the program to Les Mis, because I agree with the poster above that it's not working.

I have no idea what that has to do with Wakaba, who I agreed deserves higher PCS but has always had fantastic skating skills and speed. This year, she's also made huge strides in presentation. They're not similar skaters at all.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Hmmm @oleada, Max does have good speed but true he does not have as good skating skills as some men. You may feel differently, but it is Max's physicality that many people look at and automatically shortchange him for. That view even crept into the commentary by the Eurosport guys. Take a listen, as they speak about Max not having long lines and gracefulness. And well, he definitely can not change his body structure. He has gone a long way in feeling out his moves more and having a greater awareness of stretch and positions, and trying to express the music. He has improved regardless of whether it's widely recognized and acknowledged.

You can talk about the 'emptiness' you perceive in Max's programs all you want. Bottom line: the PCS judging is not fair across the boards and it never has been. Landing perfect quads helps PCS marks and that has been proven to happen all the time. Still Max's issue has been a kind of yearning to be appreciated aesthetically, so he has worried overmuch about that aspect often to the detriment of being consistent on his quads. And he hasn't made great music and program concept choices, coupled with trying to develop additional quads. He has also been trying to find a suitable style that might overcome some of his aesthetic weaknesses. Without consistency on his quads, and with judges unwilling to give him too much credit for where he has improved, Max has struggled over the past few years. If he can keep it together mentally, at least he has had a better start to this season. For sure Max engages the audience as much as one or two of the more 'vaunted on PCS' men do. He just does not have the skating skills that often serve to camouflage presentation weaknesses for some men.

TBH, Elvis Stojko was viewed in a similar fashion as lacking in snobby 'aesthetic qualities', and that's why Elvis did not win the OGM in 1994. But the judges had a change of heart in convening years at the World championships. In addition Elvis prevailed because he was always very confident in focusing on what he was good at and sticking to the style he felt worked for him, as well as being consistent on his tech elements.

Others who have been criticized as lacking in aesthetics due to snobby perceptions, etc., have been Midori Ito, Tonya Harding, Debi Thomas, and Surya Bonaly. More recently, Gabby Daleman has been unfairly criticized for "lacking in refinement," as have Vanessa James and Morgan Cipres, and notoriously Meagan Duhamel (but look how much Meagan has improved her flow and aesthetic qualities).

In any case, as I said, I think the placements were right at CoC for the men, but I have some slight disagreements with some of the specific numbers. Also btw, I never said that Wakaba is a similar skater to Max. I said the way Max is viewed is not unsimilar to how skaters like Wakaba (et al) are assessed in terms of snobby attitudes about physicality. That does not mean that there are similarities in the way they skate, nor that they have similar strengths and weaknesses. Of course not. Wakaba is in fact a very powerful, very fast, and technically precise skater with great positions and good presentation skills. She's just not a 'stereotypical' dainty, porcelain ice princess, with long lines and 'Grace Kelly' looks, nor IMO does she need to be.

 

[Xela M]

Jason attempted the 4T in the SP at 4CC 2015 and it was not good. He messed up the 3A too and he ended up out of the final group after the SP. They opted out of it at Worlds 2015 so he could keep 3 spots for Team USA.

Since the 2015-2016 season, Jason's pretty much attempted at least one quad in every competition he entered, except for 2016 Team Challenge Cup, when he was returning after being out most of the season and 2017 Nationals and 2017 4CC when he was still trying to recover from his stress fracture. I guess he could have tried it in the SP too.

I think he's on his own timing and he's not going to let what others do change that. I'm not really concerned. He did enough at Skate Canada to get a shot at GPF. I'm hoping for better at NHK.

But most men who end up doing consistent successful quads start doing so in juniors

 

[misskarne]

Maybe Lori can work some magic for Max (as she sure has helped Jin Boyang, with a little of the inspiration she gained from doing choreo for Nathan, methinks).

You mean the same Lori that slapped together a copy-pasted pile of dreck Carmen for Max to skate to in 2013-2014? Yeah, that worked great for him last time.

Max wins the bronze medal at Cup of China, wins the free, and is the highest-placed American man. I'll go to bed happy tonight.

 

[olympic]

You mean the same Lori that slapped together a copy-pasted pile of dreck Carmen for Max to skate to in 2013-2014? Yeah, that worked great for him last time.

Max wins the bronze medal at Cup of China, wins the free, and is the highest-placed American man. I'll go to bed happy tonight.

@misskarne I was thinking of you.

Max was great. He seemed to light up after the 3rd quad. LOL. He was workmanlike until that point but after he skated with so much joy. Too bad he can't do a 3F or maybe he could have just done a 3T as the final jumping pass because he only did 4-2. Replace the 2A - Points Points Points.

Vincent's TES is amazing! I daresay if he keeps it together, he might just come for Slaythan.

 

[jlai]

Vincent's TES is amazing! I daresay if he keeps it together, he might just come for Slaythan.

Anyone who has doubt can look up 2013 US nationals junior men results.
But I hope Nathan stays healthy. (And Max and Zhou and everyone. That way we have an exciting nationals)

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Wow, Max was ON! Well done!!!

Vincent too... for a moment there I thought both would end up on the podium......

 

[danafan]

I'm so glad I watched the men's free from Cup of China unspoiled. I'm so happy for Max! Winning the free skate is huge. And beating Zhou in both segments is huge. I hope this gives him the confidence to skate like this the rest of the season.

 

[misskarne]

Max was great. He seemed to light up after the 3rd quad. LOL. He was workmanlike until that point but after he skated with so much joy. Too bad he can't do a 3F or maybe he could have just done a 3T as the final jumping pass because he only did 4-2. Replace the 2A - Points Points Points.

I noticed the same thing at US Classic - he lands that third quad and then his whole face just lightens and everything after that is so much lighter and happier. I think the best shot was of his last spin, where you could see him smiling as he spun and Tom Z going crazy in the background .

I was expecting the 3T sub also but maybe he just wanted to go clean at that point. (Although with his track record on 2As I'd have rather he went for the 3T ).

Vincent's TES is amazing! I daresay if he keeps it together, he might just come for Slaythan.

What the scores don't show is how lucky Zhou was to be skating here, with this soft-ass tech panel, rather than in Regina last week. The slo-mo replays brought into question every single quad's rotation. You could have dinged him for all of them (though I may have been inclined to give benefit of the doubt to the first one). That he only got dinged for two is very, very, very lucky for him - and is why I'm concerned about the potential impact of a soft tech panel at US Nationals.

 

[DreamSkates]

Jason was pretty close on 4T at SC. Leaned back just a little. I wonder if they should have Alexander Ouriashev take a look; it certainly hasn't hurt Uno any. I fantasize that with a tiny adjustment Jason could do these jumps.

I wonder if they've consulted with a "jump doctor" for Jason. He has a great coach and a great choreographer but they are not necessarily technical experts on everything.