Spanish skating news

[levineismine]

To me it's more strange that they backtracked the decision on a criteria that was already set.
Once a criteria is set (wrong criteria or not, doesn't matter), it's not fair to any of the teams to change that afterwards. Not 'taking sides' here, just a general observation.

In my opinion, the criteria itself is questionable especially if the teams don't go head to head with the same panel. A more ideal criteria would take into account (possibly in head to head competitions) both the maximum score obtained but also some cumulative score to consider the whole season. Not speaking for this specific case, but in general for any skater.

 

[morqet]

They had Euros as a chance to further cement their place and failed to take it. Aside from nationals, Olivia and Adri have looked the better team all season.

 

[winterchik]

They had Euros as a chance to further cement their place and failed to take it. Aside from nationals, Olivia and Adri have looked the better team all season.

Bullshit ...Olivia and Adri will not get good scores at worlds ...and the score they got at Bavarian is cooked

 

[winterchik]

To me it's more strange that they backtracked the decision on a criteria that was already set.
Once a criteria is set (wrong criteria or not, doesn't matter), it's not fair to any of the teams to change that afterwards. Not 'taking sides' here, just a general observation.

In my opinion, the criteria itself is questionable especially if the teams don't go head to head with the same panel. A more ideal criteria would take into account (possibly in head to head competitions) both the maximum score obtained but also some cumulative score to consider the whole season. Not speaking for this specific case, but in general for any skater.

 

[princeton123]

Why didn't they send the teams to the same international competition so they could get marked by the same panel? The one time they were all marked by the same panel at nationals, H/K clearly came out ahead.

 

[MsZem]

If I were H/K, I'd be seriously pissed off. I don't think the SD technical score was a great selection criterion - certainly not on its own - but when you give skaters a specific benchmark, they plan accordingly. Changing it retroactively is really unfair, especially given the lack of head to head competition.

S/D will be skating early at Worlds, and I suspect their score will be more in line with what H/K got at Euros than their own Bavarian Open marks.

Oh well. Hurtado could use some time to work on her twizzles, and even if S/D qualify an Olympics slot, I don't see how either of the new partners can get citizenship in time. In which case, I hope Robledo and Fenero enjoy S. Korea

 

[legjumper]

They had Euros as a chance to further cement their place and failed to take it. Aside from nationals, Olivia and Adri have looked the better team all season.

Bavarian Open was Smart/Diaz's seventh competition this season, whereas Euros was only Hurtado/Khaliavin's fourth. It would have been much more fair to give H/K one more chance in a much less packed field AND get the direct comparison internationally. Asking a team to get their best results at Euros while the competition gets to rely solely on senior Bs seems a bit questionable, in my opinion.

 

[levineismine]

Maybe looking at the scores at nationals wouldn't also be ideal, because there may be internal fed politics to push a team over the other (still generally speaking, I have no clue about spanish fed politics).

Again not taking sides, just my observations: Bavarian Open was scored high in general, but compared to how other teams were scored there, Smart/Diaz's score didn't seem that exaggerated. I was there and they skated really well both segments, but especially the FD. They were clearly the second best team of that competition.

I think it's 'known' that Sr. B events later in the season have higher scores, also the teams conceivably are way improved towards the end of the season. Maybe if H/K would have done another competition after Euros, things would have been different, but who knows.

The point is that if a fed sets criteria, no matter how wrong they are, it's unfair to change their minds afterwards.

Looking at the bright side, Spain has 3 very respectable Sr. ice dance teams, and that overall should push all of them to work harder. I'm sure in the next years the field will be interesting and next year they'll get two spots at Euros back!

Good luck to Olivia and Adria at Worlds, and I'm looking forward to see what H/K have in store for next season!

side note: but will any of them be clear for the Olympics or do still Robledo/Fenero get to go?

 

[MarieM]

That decision is batshit crazy.

 

[Jeschke]

Shame on you spanish fed, seriously, shame on you!

This said without having anything against S/D, but this decision after setting criteria....once more: shame on you!

 

[chapis]

Oh well. Hurtado could use some time to work on her twizzles, and even if S/D qualify an Olympics slot, I don't see how either of the new partners can get citizenship in time. In which case, I hope Robledo and Fenero enjoy S. Korea

So, they can to compete at Worlds without the citizenship?

 

[Chemistry66]

So, they can to compete at Worlds without the citizenship?

Worlds has never required citizenship. Just proper documentation that if a skater has competed internationally for one country, they've been released by that country to skate for another.

 

[ninalovesskating]

The Spanish Fed is legit going mental. They might as well scrap nationals if that's what they're gonna do. Wtf. I'm seriously pissed. H/K are the national champions for a reason. It's totally unjustifiable to send S/D to Worlds just because "they got 0.10 higher in SD TES than H/K" ?! And not even on the same competition. Like, the Russian Fed didn't send Ilinykh/Zhiganshin to Euros instead of Sinitsina/Katsalapov even though I/Z won the FD by 0.40. What kind of bs is this? DISGUSTING.

 

[chapis]

The Spanish Fed is legit going mental. They might as well scrap nationals if that's what they're gonna do. Wtf. I'm seriously pissed. H/K are the national champions for a reason. It's totally unjustifiable to send S/D to Worlds just because "they got 0.10 higher in SD TES than H/K" ?! And not even on the same competition. Like, the Russian Fed didn't send Ilinykh/Zhiganshin to Euros instead of Sinitsina/Katsalapov even though I/Z won the FD by 0.40. What kind of bs is this? DISGUSTING.

Well, it is not the first time that a federation does whatever they want.

 

[Sylvia]

More details (in spanish) on the document released by the spanish fed: https://t.co/k1bcvQFZlm
as a reminder, the original criteria was the highest TES score in the SD.
S/D: 35.60 (Bavarian Open)
H/K: 35.70 (Mentor Torun Cup)

They decided to consider that an equal result (difference of 0.10), as just one different GOE given by one judge on one element would be enough to create a 0.20 difference (in other words, 0.20 would be the minimum gap to say that the two scores are different enough).

Given the FD results (huge score by S/D at Bavarian Open), they decided to use that to tip their decision over for S/D.

Google translation of the decision

 

[ninalovesskating]

Well, it is not the first time that a federation does whatever they want.

Yeah, I know that... My comment doesn't just apply to the Spanish Fed. It goes out to all Feds who are being idiotic. That stuff has got to stop happening. You cannot simply discredit your top team like that. It's so ridiculous. I can't even...

 

[Dobre]

They had Euros as a chance to further cement their place and failed to take it. Aside from nationals, Olivia and Adri have looked the better team all season.

Euros is a much deeper event than a Challenger or a Senior B. H&K could have done better there, but that doesn't mean Smart & Diaz would have. (S&D missed their own set of twizzles in the short at Nationals).

It's impossible to know which team would do better at Worlds; but I agree that once you set a criteria, you should follow through. It's much better for all the skaters in the long run.

I like H&K's potential more. I thought by sending them out this season, Spain was making a good choice in the long run. In S&D's favor, they have had a much longer competitive season and have bested Min & Gamelin more than once. That looks pretty good at the moment as M&G just defeated Muramoto & Reed--who were top 15 at Worlds--at 4CCs. I think, however, that things are so fluid among the lower ranks right now that pretty much anything can happen among a slew of teams, depending on who gets the levels outside the footwork sequences. (None of these teams are likely to get the footwork sequences).

 

[winterchik]

I see this has cheating when a federation is so corrupted that changes the rules of the game when it wants the rule was the Sd score that is it !!!

 

[aka_gerbil]

Shame on you spanish fed, seriously, shame on you!

There are a lot of posts I'd like to quote that express the same thoughts I have on the matter, but this sums it up in a nutshell. Shame on you Spanish fed.

The North American Dance/Pairs-centric Two for the Ice (http://www.twofortheice.com) has a Tumblr account where they share score breakdowns and trends. They posted this entry earlier: http://twofortheice.tumblr.com/post/157841969022/snapshot-stats-the-spanish-inquiry-after

They linked to a document on the Spanish fed's website in the post, and the criteria for selection was published in August. This really was changing the goal posts after the game had been played. As Zemgirl said earlier in the thread:

when you give skaters a specific benchmark, they plan accordingly. Changing it retroactively is really unfair, especially given the lack of head to head competition.

In general, not just this specific situation, since the TES minimum requirements were instated, I've found the scoring from these Challenger, Senior B, and minor international events to be hugely problematic and not at all reflective or predictive of what's going to happen later in the season or when different teams finally end up in the same event together. The scoring tends to be very generous to help some of these teams get those minimums, and it just distorts any ability to compare, especially between events. The list is long of teams all along the spectrum getting scores at these events that are absurdly blown up compared to what they'd be getting on the GP or at the championship events.

Maddening to me is the Spanish fed trying to say 0.1 difference is really a tie because if/then (and the Two for the Ice entry does a great job addressing that fallacy). However, 0.1 points more is 0.1 points more, and this is not a sport that deals in ties, no matter how small the margins. Just ask W/P and P/B about what it means to finish fractions of a point behind a competitor. Sometimes, you lose by 10 points. Sometimes, you lose by hundredths. No matter how small the margin, when one number is bigger than the other, it's not a tie.

The net result of how all of this has played out, with the Spanish fed ignoring the criteria that they set months ago when the season hadn't even really fully started, it appears that they're playing favorites and smacks of agenda.

 

[winterchik]

Well, it is not the first time that a federation does whatever they want.

and ISU the watchdogs allows it !!!!

 

[MsZem]

It's not the ISU's responsibility to involve itself in how federations handle international assignments. There's not going to be a one size fits all approach to that. But it wouldn't be a bad idea to require that federations set clear and transparent selection criteria, and stick to them for the full duration that they cover.

The Spanish Fed is legit going mental. They might as well scrap nationals if that's what they're gonna do. Wtf. I'm seriously pissed. H/K are the national champions for a reason. It's totally unjustifiable to send S/D to Worlds just because "they got 0.10 higher in SD TES than H/K" ?!

It was actually H/K who had the higher TES, which was the original selection criterion. S/D had the higher total.

There is nothing wrong with setting selection criteria other than Nationals; lots of federations do that. It is wrong to set a criterion and then backtrack on it. And it's stupid to make a selection based on international results without ever having the affected skaters at the same international competition.

 

[reut]

Sara's reaction to the news:

Shame this was the last time we performed this program... but like this is how I want to say bye to the season: Taking a bow to the ones they enjoy our skating, with a smile on my face and holding hands with my team. We have a lot more to give.

https://www.facebook.com/SaraSobreHielo/videos/1900701736866836/

 

[jmtfti]

Thanks for linking to my post, aka_gerbil!

As a follow up, I've noticed a lot of reference to Sara's twizzle errors while discussing Smart/Diaz's twizzle error at Nationals as though the latter were a relative aberration, but I suspect there's either selective memory at play or most didn't have to watch, livetweet, and analyze protocol sheets for as many Challenger events as I did. Here's a breakdown of each couple's twizzle levels and GOE (levels below 4 and/or negative GOE are highlighted in red):

Smart/Diaz

Lake Placid SD: Level 4; 1.20 GOE
Lake Placid FD: Level 2; -0.83 GOE

US Classic SD: Level 4; 0.36 GOE
US Classic FD: Level 3; -0.70 GOE

Autumn Classic SD: Level 3; -0.90 GOE
Autumn Classic FD: Level 3; -0.70 GOE

Finlandia SD: Level 1; 0.60 GOE
Finlandia FD: Level 1; 0.00 GOE

Open d'Andorra SD: Level 4; 0.60 GOE
Open d'Andorra FD: Level 3; 0.60 GOE

Bavarian Open SD: Level 4; 1.20 GOE
Bavarian Open FD: Level 4; 1.20 GOE


Hurtado/Khaliavin

Santa Claus Cup SD: Level 3; -0.50 GOE
Santa Claus Cup FD: Level 1; -0.15 GOE

Euros SD: Level 4; 0.69 GOE
Euros FD: Level 1; -0.3 GOE

Mentor Torun Cup SD: Level 4; 1.4 GOE
Mentor Torun Cup FD: Level 2; -0.33 GOE


Twizzles aren't the be all, end all, and both couples have had other errors as well, but it seemed important to point out that for the majority of S/D's competitive history, L4 and +GOE twizzles have been the exception, not the rule (certainly mileage may help, something Hurtado/Khaliavin haven't had nearly so many chances at).

 

[clairecloutier]

It's not the ISU's responsibility to involve itself in how federations handle international assignments. There's not going to be a one size fits all approach to that. But it wouldn't be a bad idea to require that federations set clear and transparent selection criteria, and stick to them for the full duration that they cover.

This is what I've been trying to argue in regard to the American team selection process, as well. Having transparent, clear selection criteria is likely to make team selection easier for the selectors, more fair for the athletes, and more understandable and defensible to others. Although transparency/clarity may not be owed to anyone, it's generally the best policy in most situations, this particular one included IMO.

An interesting thing about fair/transparent criteria is it takes some power, I suppose, but also pressure, away from fed officials, and puts both those things back on the athletes. When there are clear/transparent criteria, it's the athletes' goal to meet them. If they do meet the criteria, as Hurtado/Khaliavin did here, and get the chance to represent their country, then the championship results are also their responsibility. So a fair/transparent selection process shifts some burden, as well as opportunity, to the athletes. I think most athletes, if you asked them, would be more than willing to take that trade-off for the chance to control their own destiny, so to speak. It can be argued that ultimately it's the federation's responsibility, not the athletes', to get the most team qualification spots and/or medals, and therefore fed officials should have arbitrary decision-making power. But I think most elite skaters are well aware that their competition results at major championships are not just about them, but also about team qualification/medals. It's something Ashley Wagner has spoken about many times, Penny Coomes spoke about it in her recent interview with Europe on Ice. I think most athletes know their responsibility to do as well as possible for the team and will do the best they can. So personally I don't think federations stand to lose that much by allowing athletes to qualify through a clear, transparent process (which can take in many factors, as long as they are clearly laid out, explained, and weighted). If the athletes are successful in a well-thought-out, well-balanced, quantified qualification process, then they are likely to be successful in competition as well IMO.

 

[hanca]

I agree that it was not a fair decision, but in the long term, H/K may benefit from not going to worlds. Having two months extra to prepare themselves for the next season, especially when the season is the Olympic season, may give them a huge advantage.

 

[Jeschke]

Kirill reaction:
https://instagram.com/p/BRHNRWpAMuo/

Oh my heart
#teammonko

 

[AYS]

The Spanish skating federation have chosen Smart/Diaz to compete at Worlds in Helsinki.
Hielo Español broke the news on fb.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1469420089757305&substory_index=0&id=290412707658055

Scanning quickly I read this as "all hell broke loose on fb". At any rate, it's really too bad (IMO).

 

[turquoiseblue]

Here is an interesting article on Sara and Kirill published today:
Sara Hurtado and Kirill Khaliavin: "At this point we just keep building in us" by Florentina Tone, Insideskating

 

[DimaToe]

I feel like having a team selection "scandal" makes the Spanish Fed. legitimate now. Welcome

 

[casken]

Whoa whoa, whoa.... I must have been really out of the loop. Hurtado and Khaliavin aren't going to worlds after all?

What kind of bullsh*t is that? They were one of my top 3 teams I was rooting for most at worlds.