Proposed tech requirement changes (ISU Congress June 2024)

[Karen-W]

https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/33668-isu-communication-2623/file

THEY ARE GOING AFTER THE EULER COMBOS ISU ROCKS APART FROM ALL THE WAYS IT DOESN'T

Not really. They're just giving it no value, which seems correct since all the jump does is allow for the change of foot necessary to execute the next jump in the sequence.

 

[On My Own]

Not really. They're just giving it no value, which seems correct since all the jump does is allow for the change of foot necessary to execute the next jump in the sequence.

Well let's see how the rules overall look after Congress, but it does say it no longer counts as a jump within a combo either (so 3A+1Eu+3S is just two jumps).

An Euler (half-loop) is considered a non-listed jump, it will have no value when used in a jump combination between two
listed jumps becomes and it will not be counted in the number of the allowed jumps of the concerned jump combination with
the value indicated in the Scale of Value. An Euler jump cannot be included in the jump combination of the Short Program.
An Euler (half-loop) can only be executed once in Free Skating.

I like it if it means we're going to get more creative/prettier 3 jump combos.

 

[Karen-W]

Well let's see how the rules overall look after Congress, but it does say it no longer counts as a jump within a combo either (so 3A+1Eu+3S is just two jumps).



I like it if it means we're going to get more creative/prettier 3 jump combos.

Literally, the only change in the proposed rules is giving it no value.

Here is the exact text as it currently reads with strikethroughs for what will change -

Jump combinations:
An Euler (half-loop) is considered a non-listed jump, it will have no value when used in a jump combination between two listed jumps becomes and it will not be counted in the number of the allowed jumps of the concerned jump combination with the value indicated in the Scale of Value. An Euler jump cannot be included in the jump combination of the Short Program. An Euler (half-loop) can only be executed once in Free Skating.

Jump sequences:
A jump sequence consists of two or three jumps of any number of revolutions, in which the second and/or the third jump is an Axel type jump with a direct step from the landing curve of the first/second jump in to the take-off curve of the Axel jump. One full revolution on the ice between the jumps (free foot can touch the ice, but without weight transfer) keeps the element in the frame of the definition of a jump sequence. Jumps executed in a jump sequence receive their full value.

An Euler (half-loop) is considered a non-listed jump, it will have no value when used in a jump sequence between two listed jumps becomes and it will not be counted in the number of the allowed jumps of the concerned jump sequence with the value indicated in the Scale of Value. After the execution of an Euler (half-loop) no change of foot is allowed. An Euler (half-loop) can only be executed once in Free Skating.

 

[On My Own]

Literally, the only change in the proposed rules is giving it no value.

Here is the exact text as it currently reads with strikethroughs for what will change -

Does it not mean that 3A+1Eu+3S will just be noted as 3A+3S from now on (if it passes)?

 

[Karen-W]

Does it not mean that 3A+1Eu+3S will just be noted as 3A+3S from now on (if it passes)?

I'm not sure how it will be listed on a judging protocol. Probably, yes, we'd see it eliminated from the protocols. Or, it is still listed but it gets 0.00 value.

 

[On My Own]

I'm not sure how it will be listed on a judging protocol. Probably, yes, we'd see it eliminated from the protocols. Or, it is still listed but it gets 0.00 value.

"it will not be counted in the number of the allowed jumps of the concerned jump combination" does read to me like they would say only two jumps happened in 3A+1Eu+3S, but I guess we'll wait for examples.

But this is what I was happy about, that we could get back combos like 3A+2T+2Lo instead (hopefully they won't default to ugly +2A+2A sequences... hoping for a fix to that, no need to see sequences being allowed for 3 jumps), since otherwise the three jump will go empty. And with the change, 3A+1Eu+3S (12.80 -> 12.30) loses its appeal ranking further behind 3A+3Lo (12.90) which looks far prettier, or it will force someone to use their Flip in combo like in 3A+1Eu+3F (13.80 -> 13.30) and hopefully shake the rest of the layout up and make extra points up elsewhere.

 

[Karen-W]

"it will not be counted in the number of the allowed jumps of the concerned jump combination" does read to me like they would only say two jumps happened in 3A+1Eu+3S, but I guess we'll wait for examples.

But this is what I was happy about, that we could get back combos like 3A+2T+2Lo instead (hopefully they won't default to ugly +2A+2A sequences... hoping for a fix to that, no need to see sequences being allowed for 3 jumps), since otherwise the three jump will go empty. And with the change, 3A+1Eu+3S (12.80 -> 12.30) loses its appeal ranking behind 3A+3Lo (12.90) which looks far prettier, or it will force someone to use their Flip in combo like in 3A+1Eu+3F (13.80 -> 13.30) and hopefully shake the rest of the layout up and make extra points up elsewhere.

Ehhhhhh... It's .50 in value - the skaters that are using it won't likely be deterred from using it and can more than make up the loss of .50 elsewhere in their programs, especially with the addition of the choreo spins.

 

[skatingguy]

I think the more interesting change is the elimination of 3 jump combos in pairs.

Jump sequences:A jump sequence consists of two or three 1) jumps of any number of revolutions, in which the second and/or the thirdjump is an Axel type jump with a direct step from the landing curve of the first/second jump in to the take- off curve ofthe Axel jump. One full revolution on the ice between the jumps (free foot can touch the ice, but without weight transfer)keeps the element in the frame of the definition of a jump sequence. Jumps executed in a jump sequence receive theirfull value.

 

[Karen-W]

I think the more interesting change is the elimination of 3 jump combos in pairs.

I'm really sad about this. I liked the 3 jump combo/sequences in pairs - at least when well-executed. I'd have rather they eliminated a 1a as the 2nd jump in a 3-jump combo in pairs because that was just lame.

 

[On My Own]

Ehhhhhh... It's .50 in value - the skaters that are using it won't likely be deterred from using it and can more than make up the loss of .50 elsewhere in their programs, especially with the addition of the choreo spins.

We'll see I guess. Although, I never actually got why skaters didn't do 3A+3T+2Lo, which is bound to look prettier than 3A+1Eu+3S and scores more.

 

[On My Own]

I think the more interesting change is the elimination of 3 jump combos in pairs.

Isn't this specifically for sequences in Pairs? The combos section doesn't have this correction.

Also what does the addition of "skating" in front of movements indicate in choreography sequences? What other movements were expected before?

 

[skatingguy]

Isn't this specifically for sequences in Pairs? The combos section doesn't have this correction.

Yes, you're correct. Sequences not combinations.

Also what does the addition of "skating" in front of movements indicate in choreography sequences? What other movements were expected before?

I wonder if that is a clarification for the technical panel to prevent issues like what happened to Matteo Rizzo this season.

 

[Karen-W]

Isn't this specifically for sequences in Pairs? The combos section doesn't have this correction.

Also what does the addition of "skating" in front of movements indicate in choreography sequences? What other movements were expected before?

aerials? cartwheels? backflips? raspberry twists? extended choreo slides?

 

[On My Own]

aerials? cartwheels? backflips? raspberry twists? extended choreo slides?

Oh well if it blocks backflips, I'm fine with that... Not that it mattered this season, I guess.

I do think limiting it to simply "skating movements" can kill creativity, but I am not exactly gasping in awe at most of these gimmick moves, so...

 

[Karen-W]

Oh well if it blocks backflips, I'm fine with that... Not that it mattered this season, I guess.

I do think limiting it to simply "skating movements" can kill creativity, but I am not exactly gasping at aw at most of these gimmick moves, so...

Nah, it doesn't really. Reading the full text, it clearly doesn't eliminate those moves since they were already allowed.

 

[kwanfan1818]

If the Euler doesn’t count in the number of jumps, it means that the skaters can do a traditional 3-jump combo, too, not that they must. But it’s hardly going after Euler combos, which give the skaters far more options than ending with toes or loops that they mostly land on a standstill, barely having left the ice.

 

[On My Own]

If the Euler doesn’t count in the number of jumps, it means that the skaters can do a traditional 3-jump combo, too, not that they must. But it’s hardly going after Euler combos, which give the skaters far more options than ending with toes or loops that they mostly land on a standstill, barely having left the ice.

Skaters have never been required to do a 3 jump combo, or any combo at all in a free skate, from what I know. Combos and 3 jump combos happen in order to maximize the BV. And from what I recall, Euler combos (and "step" combos) were called two jump sequences, and were offered a reduction in BV much like axel sequences used to be, and people used to avoid them as a result. So why would they suddenly do something less productive in this particular case? If it offers them variety, they could have done it no matter before what... Yet it was fodder for skaters who couldn't land more difficult combos.

I am happy to see them doing the right thing by counting them as simple edge changes within the combo, something I've said many times before.

I'd be happy to see a skater doing 3A+3F, 3A+3Lo+2Lo along with three different types of quads (4Lz, 4T x 2, 4S means all six jump types are included without struggling to add more than three quad types). Although neither the proposal of only having six jumping passes, nor the one about only having two combos and three repetitions of same jump type are listed in this (yes, I know that this is about GOE and levels, but still).


(Edited for clarity)

 

[Coco]

Regarding Lutz vs Flip, they could start by limiting skaters to either or in the SP. This wouldn't be as radical as merging them in the values table but would prevent skaters from basically repeating a jump in the SP.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Skaters have never been required to do a 3 jump combo, or any combo at all in a free skate, from what I know.

Right, so explain to me how now not adding less than a point for the euler combo is cracking down on euler combos.

 

[Karen-W]

Right, so explain to me how now not adding less than a point for the euler combo is cracking down on euler combos.

It's not and nothing in the updated language indicates the ISU is cracking down on them.

 

[On My Own]

Where is it written that it's only those 0.5 marks that are gone? It's also that skaters might have an empty slot for 3 jump combos that are going to need different approaches, and hopefully they won't just be doing axel sequences for those (3A+2A+2A = 14.6 points)... But I guess more skaters already could have been doing those this season?

Maybe it will have the opposite effect where more people will just be doing +3F and +2A+2A...

 

[Karen-W]

Where is it written that it's only those 0.5 marks that are gone? It's also that skaters might have an empty slot for 3 jump combos that are going to need different approaches, and hopefully they won't just be doing axel sequences for those (3A+2A+2A = 14.6 points)... But I guess more skaters already could have been doing those this season?

Maybe it will have the opposite effect where more people will just be doing +3F and +2A+2A...

As I quoted above from the full text - the ONLY thing that is being eliminated is the VALUE for the Euler. It is now going to be a non-listed jump element. It's like an Ina Bauer or spread eagle when used in a step sequence or a choreo sequence. It's a connecting element. There is nothing in the verbiage that says it cannot be used or that using it means the 3rd jump in the combo/sequence is now counted as a separate jumping pass.

 

[Marco]

Perhaps they do this to the euler to allow another 3 jump combo - in response to getting rid of one jumping pass.

3lutz2toe
3lutz
3flip-2axel-2axel
3flip
3loop
3toe euler 3sal

This then becomes one of the simpler ways to achieve 7 triples in 6 passes.

 

[Marco]

One other thing that I wish ISU would consider is the penalty for illegal elements. Seeing Adam just casually throwing a backflip in and still winning all these medals makes me realize - in the men's comp where the total scores of the top men are in the higher 200s or even 300s, a 1 point penalty is nothing but might instead arouse crowd response - ironically giving him higher PCS that may be more than that one point. I don't know if Adam was doing all these backflips impulsively or in a calculated way, but a 1 point penalty seems too irrelevant as a deterrent. At this rate maybe they should just legalize it?!

I am not arguing whether the element should be illegal or not, I am just wondering how illegal ISU wants this to be regarded and how dettering they want the penalty to be.

 

[Debbie S]

Penalty for a backflip is 2 points. If Shoma had skated a little better, it could have been costly for Adam. How many points do people think should be deducted?

 

[EdgyIceMarks]

Yeah I think the change to the Euler is a buff not a nerf to Euler combinations

Treating the Euler as its own jumping element when done in combination was a bit of penalty to Euler jump combinations b/c effectively a skater was wasting 1 out of max 11 jump slots (max 7 jumps in the free w/ two 2-jump combinations and one 3-jump combination = max total of 11 jump slots) to what has the base value of a single jump. Now the Euler is no longer treated as a a jump element with its own score, and doesn't count towards number of allowed jumps in a jump combination/sequence, which means it no longer 'wastes' 1 out of max 11 jump slots for the free.

So the change seems to be along the lines of what they did with axel sequences two seasons ago, it means that for women skating for instance the skater has more room to optimize their jump layout (aka executing max. # of triple jumps and double axels, and filling the rest with 'respectably-scoring' double jumps) in the free skate w/o doing jump combinations with a triple toe or loop as the subsequent jump.

 

[leilaofpaper]

Penalty for a backflip is 2 points. If Shoma had skated a little better, it could have been costly for Adam. How many points do people think should be deducted?

I don’t care that much either way about backflips being included, but I think if you want to stop people doing an illegal element it should be 5 points.

 

[Private Citizen]

Can the three-jump combo include an euler? E.g., can Malinin do 4Lz+eu+3F+3T now? I would think so?

So happy to see the ugly three jump "combos" gone in pairs. The X + 2A + 2A "combos" were killing me and allowing pairs to rack up too many points.

 

[Coco]

never mind

ETA:

Windmill is no longer considered as a difficult entry or exit.

 

[Karen-W]

So happy to see the ugly three jump "combos" gone in pairs. The X + 2A + 2A "combos" were killing me and allowing pairs to rack up too many points.

My issue with those combos/sequences in pairs wasn't so much that they were allowing teams to 'rack up too many points' but that they were often ugly - and often wound up being X+1A+2A with the 1A being pretty atrocious and merely a "reset" so the skater had the necessary momentum to get the 2A off the ice, not to mention the jump passes were wildly out-of-synch and didn't show any level of unison between the two skaters. I'd rather there be a required negative GOE for SBS jumps that are more than N feet or meters apart on takeoff or there is a clear delay between the two skaters at takeoff.