Missing ladies at the Olympics since 1984

[Maximillian]

Tiffany Chin was my first skating love and I was so hoping she would make it to Calgary, but at '87 Nationals in the LP where she only had to finish 4th in the FS she couldn't muster one triple. I believe that she said in her interview with TSL years ago that there was just no way she was going to make it to Calgary. Her body changed so much, even from Sarajevo to Geneva Worlds.

Funny Sumner's dubious triples were mentioned, as recently there has been a lot of criticism of certain skaters jumping with their arms as opposed to their legs. I think Sumners might have been the most egregious example of this technique as you could see the strain as she pulled up into her jumps with her arms.

I always assumed Wegelius retired at Helsinki Worlds to finish her career at home. Binder's leg wrap was awful, though Ito proved that if you were phenomenally gifted even a leg wrap couldn't hold you back.

 

[floskate]

Tiffany Chin was my first skating love and I was so hoping she would make it to Calgary, but at '87 Nationals in the LP where she only had to finish 4th in the FS she couldn't muster one triple. I believe that she said in her interview with TSL years ago that there was just no way she was going to make it to Calgary. Her body changed so much, even from Sarajevo to Geneva Worlds.

Funny Sumner's dubious triples were mentioned, as recently there has been a lot of criticism of certain skaters jumping with their arms as opposed to their legs. I think Sumners might have been the most egregious example of this technique as you could see the strain as she pulled up into her jumps with her arms.

I always assumed Wegelius retired at Helsinki Worlds to finish her career at home. Binder's leg wrap was awful, though Ito proved that if you were phenomenally gifted even a leg wrap couldn't hold you back.

Ah Tiffany. Such beautiful carriage; pure Mr Nicks. I wonder if she'd landed the flip at the Olympics - she stepped out IIRC - that she would have made it to the podium? But you have to wonder if the deal was already done for Ivanova's bronze.

Imagine Sumners jumps under IJS? Carrot city!

 

[olympic]

Very interesting thread. I have a documentary somewhere showing Biellmann landing a triple flip in the late 1970's but she never did it in competition. So legend has it, Denise apparently tried the triple lutz as early as 1976 Worlds but I've never seen it. Leading into Sarejevo would have been very interesting with Denise staying in and I think it would have seen a definite commitment to raising the tech content by other skaters. Instead we saw glimpses but nothing concrete.

Katarina Witt did have triple loop by 1984 - she fell on it at the 1983 Europeans and you are right her triple flip was iffy and often two-footed. However if you watch the 1983 Europeans (she doubled the flip), she was legitimately going out there with a layout designed to max out at 6 triples; flip, loop, 2 sals, 2 toes which is pretty cool when you think about it because she certainly didn't need it. And I think that is exactly why she ended up scaling back after '83. Without Denise and Elaine sidetracked by USFSA politics pushing Sumners and the likes of figures powerhouses like Wegelius and Kristofics-Binder out of the running, she didn't need all that tech to compete with Sumners and her two very swingy and inconsistent triples of sal and toe. Witt was a way better jumper than Sumners and I think she and Frau Muller took the calculated decision that her top drawer element of 2z-3t to open and her relative consistency with the sal and toe would be enough if she was close enough after figures. It paid off. (I do love that Witt just pulled out the triple loop to beat Debi Thomas on home turf in '87 though. So gutsy and a reflection of the phenomenal competitor that she was. She also landed a beauty in the warm up in Lillehammer.)

Binder - Hmmm I dunno if she would have been a factor by '84. Austrian political pull wasn't what it was by then and her spaghetti triples were a disaster waiting to happen. How she never seriously injured herself in competition I'll never know.

Wegelius - I wonder why she didn't stay in for 1984. Does anyone know? Sadly she never could master the triple sal and her Dorothy Hamillesque skating style looked a bit staid by '83.

I often wonder how things would have panned out for Ito if she had gone to Sarajevo. If she had skated in the Olympics the way she did in Ottawa at Worlds - and there's no reason to assume she wouldn't - the media impact she would have made might have stood her in better stead by the time Calgary rolled around in terms of reputation with the judges.

How do you think Biellmann would’ve fared in Sarajevo? That has always been my biggest ever FS speculation

Love your commentary. Binder really had problems and I never assumed her to be a medal threat, but my biggest speculation was how much she would have screwed with figures placements vis a vis Witt / Sumners.

Same for Ito in the SP screwing the results via a vis Zayak / Chin
/ Zayak

 

[Erin]

Ah Tiffany. Such beautiful carriage; pure Mr Nicks. I wonder if she'd landed the flip at the Olympics - she stepped out IIRC - that she would have made it to the podium? But you have to wonder if the deal was already done for Ivanova's bronze.

I also think that the US was too busy promoting Sumners to try to help out Chin. Even with the mistake on the triple flip, I would have Chin clearly above Sumners in the free and would attribute the actual result to politics.

 

[floskate]

How do you think Biellmann would’ve fared in Sarajevo? That has always been my biggest ever FS speculation

Love your commentary. Binder really had problems and I never assumed her to be a medal threat, but my biggest speculation was how much she would have screwed with figures placements vis a vis Witt / Sumners.

Same for Ito in the SP screwing the results via a vis Zayak / Chin
/ Zayak

It depends what tech Biellmann carried through the quad and what her win/loss ratio was from 1981 through to the Olympics. If she'd been like Hamilton and won everything she'd be a shoo-in. When she was on she was brilliant but she was erratic (1980 Worlds LP :wow. So it's hard to say she would have been that dominant. What intrigues me is how she and Katarina would have pushed each other and that may well have resulted in a high quality rivalry from 1982 onwards.

I agree Binder should have placed above Katarina in figures were she in Sarajevo but who knows what kind of politics would be going on behind the scenes .

Ito is difficult in terms of placements. Who knows where she would have been after figures. That would have a huge effect on how much of an influence she would have had on the SP results.

 

[floskate]

I also think that the US was too busy promoting Sumners to try to help out Chin. Even with the mistake on the triple flip, I would have Chin clearly above Sumners in the free and would attribute the actual result to politics.

Agreed. I still think Sumners was the most overrated US skater. How she lost by one tenth on one judges card is beyond me. Every time I watch the competition it is a slam dunk for Witt (and Witt's 1984/85 LP is my least favourite vehicle of hers. The 1983 Paint it Black LP was way better IMO). I still don't get how it was so close!

 

[Maximillian]

Agreed. I still think Sumners was the most overrated US skater. How she lost by one tenth on one judges card is beyond me. Every time I watch the competition it is a slam dunk for Witt (and Witt's 1984/85 LP is my least favourite vehicle of hers. The 1983 Paint it Black LP was way better IMO). I still don't get how it was so close!

I agree re: Sumners being overrated and think the USFS promotion of her over Zayak from '82 onward is one of the worst examples of their privileging 'pretty princess' skaters to their own detriment. Sumners tech content was so unreliable, they really would have been better served backing Zayak and/or Chin, especially seeing how Witt was developing through the quad.

 

[VGThuy]

I always feel out-of-step when people talk about Sumners. I thought she was a truly beautiful skater with great qualities. Plus, I don’t have the context of what was high tech in the early 1980s, so I don’t really care about that.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

If Ito hadn't been injured prior to the 1985 World Championships on home turf, I think she may have had much greater momentum leading into the 1988 Olympic Games. Instead, rising star, Debi Thomas, really captured a lot of media attention in Japan, and rode that wave into 1986.

Figures were Ito's nemesis. But based on how skaters at the 1984 World Championships did in compulsories (compared to Midori), and how they placed in that section the following year, if Ito had won the short and the free, she could have ousted Chin for bronze.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I always feel out-of-step when people talk about Sumners. I thought she was a truly beautiful skater with great qualities. Plus, I don’t have the context of what was high tech in the early 1980s, so I don’t really care about that.

Rosalyn developed into a wonderful professional skater. Her technical program at the 1986 World Professional Championships is a personal favourite.

Rosalynn Sumners 1986 World Pros TP

Sumners' technical program to music from Swan Lake.

www.youtube.com

 

[olympic]

It depends what tech Biellmann carried through the quad and what her win/loss ratio was from 1981 through to the Olympics. If she'd been like Hamilton and won everything she'd be a shoo-in. When she was on she was brilliant but she was erratic (1980 Worlds LP :wow. So it's hard to say she would have been that dominant. What intrigues me is how she and Katarina would have pushed each other and that may well have resulted in a high quality rivalry from 1982 onwards.

I agree Binder should have placed above Katarina in figures were she in Sarajevo but who knows what kind of politics would be going on behind the scenes .

Ito is difficult in terms of placements. Who knows where she would have been after figures. That would have a huge effect on how much of an influence she would have had on the SP results.

Your posts made me think about how competitive Witt was. If Biellmann had been a top-drawer competitor in the 81-84 Olympic cycle, it probably would follow that Witt and Frau Mueller would have plotted a more demanding tech to be competitive and there was a good chance of an ultimate showdown at the Zetra.

OTOH, Sumners and her 'swingy and inconsistent' triples (which is such an accurate description ) would have been looking at a Bronze. I also never got the love she was shown both nationally and internationally. I often joked that she was an American prototype for Laura Lepisto (beautiful edges and posture) and her best jump was the 2A. On a good day, I would watch her land a clean 3S or 3T, and she was saved by her good edges and posture, because she would whip her body through those jumps and they looked on the verge of being out of control.

Interesting quote from Sumners in her TSL interview was that she did not like to compete. Quite bluntly put. She was gone after the Olympics.

A butterfly effect of a continued Biellmann presence / Witt upping the ante on the USFSA could have been the promotion of Elaine Zayak instead of Sumners to counter a Witt/Biellmann triple contest. Then again, the USFSA is beholden to the pretty princess, as the dawn of IJS showed us last decade. I always thought Zayak improved on her 2nd mark in the 83 and 84 seasons, but it was never reflected accurately IMO in her placement. Her WD from 83 Worlds due to a pretty devastating injury really put her in a hole.

I think Ito would have been really buried in the figures but a 3L combo in the SP meant she would probably have screwed with Ivanova / Kondrashova / Zayak's placements (if Zayak was still a stepchild to the USFSA).

 

[Vagabond]

Wegelius - I wonder why she didn't stay in for 1984. Does anyone know? Sadly she never could master the triple sal and her Dorothy Hamillesque skating style looked a bit staid by '83.

She was twenty-three at the time of the 1984 Winter Olympic Games and at least two years older than anyone who did compete in the Ladies Event there. I know nothing of her personal circumstances beyond what is posted on her Wikipedia page, but given that she had competed in Lake Placid, finishing tenth, and the 1983 World Championships were in her home country, I expect she didn't think that the potential return on the monetary investment in training toward Sarajevo was worth it.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I recall reading somewhere that Denise Biellmann was one of the professionals considering reinstatement for the 1994 Winter Olympics in Lillehammer. It makes sense, because during the pro season following those games, her fitness level was through the roof. She even beat the likes of Chouinard, Witt, Sato and Baiul in some of the professional competitions they went head-to-head in.

Elizabeth Manley was also another professional who was considering reinstating in the lead up to the Nagano Olympics.

YUP! I would watch her destroy and take names in the pro and pro-am competitions on the 90s... She was in FIERCE shape!

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I’d add Tiffany Chin to the names of ladies who should’ve/could’ve been in 1988. She finished 4th in 1984 and made podium at Worlds in following years then surprised everyone by turning pro a year or two before 1988, even though she was still very young. She was a big rival of Debi Thomas so perhaps she threw in the towel after Debi won Worlds in ‘86? I always thought that Tiffany had the goods to have improved after ‘86 with the right support system (eg, less influence of her notoriously pushy mom).

Refresh my Captain Morgan's.... did Jill Trenary attend an Olympics?

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Refresh my Captain Morgan's.... did Jill Trenary attend an Olympics?

Yes. Jill placed 4th at the Calgary Olympics in 1988.

She was close to suffering the same effects of the flu which took Caryn Kadavy out of competition, too.

 

[olympic]

If Ito hadn't been injured prior to the 1985 World Championships on home turf, I think she may have had much greater momentum leading into the 1988 Olympic Games. Instead, rising star, Debi Thomas, really captured a lot of media attention in Japan, and rode that wave into 1986.

Figures were Ito's nemesis. But based on how skaters at the 1984 World Championships did in compulsories (compared to Midori), and how they placed in that section the following year, if Ito had won the short and the free, she could have ousted Chin for bronze.

Maybe but Tiffany Chin had heavy support from a powerful fed, so even if Ito could outjump her, she was just beginning to build international credibility, and I think Chin would have survived on the 2nd mark and a heavy advantage in figures IMO

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Yes. Jill placed 4th at the Calgary Olympics in 1988.

She was close to suffering the same effects of the flu which took Caryn Kadavy out of competition, too.

Wow, this was over 32 years ago? We have lived!!!! LOL

 

[mjb52]

Wow, this was over 32 years ago? We have lived!!!! LOL

Moskvina said in a recent interview that she is still 22 and I will take that to mean we are too.

 

[Andora]

This thread is such a joy, I can't tell you. I should have liked every post, just out of appreciation.

I'm mostly here for Denise Biellmann recognition. I was FASCINATED by her as a pro skater. My introduction to Ms. Biellmann was her iconic "Lick It" program, which was terrific and tacky and everything in between. Even containing a ton of dancing on the spot, that program gets 10s every day from me for balls + costume alone.

She is perennially underrated, right down to her landing position. I had little context for her competitive history, other than getting a kick out of her winning worlds the year I was born, so I massively appreciate the history lesson & insights.

I recall reading somewhere that Denise Biellmann was one of the professionals considering reinstatement for the 1994 Winter Olympics in Lillehammer. It makes sense, because during the pro season following those games, her fitness level was through the roof. She even beat the likes of Chouinard, Witt, Sato and Baiul in some of the professional competitions they went head-to-head in.

Elizabeth Manley was also another professional who was considering reinstating in the lead up to the Nagano Olympics.

I've re-written this post three times as I process (wildly divergent) thoughts & emotions regarding the potential of these two returning for the 1994 games. While Denise makes sense, I need to add some Liz Manley pro-programs to a youtube blitz to understand THAT.

I look forward to it, though - Liz Manley was THE skater that sparked my interest in this wonderful sport, like many Canadians, no doubt. Between her & Order's CBC specials, her Ice Capades years, etc., it felt like we had this mini skating-boom in Canada, post-Calgary.

Agreed. I still think Sumners was the most overrated US skater. How she lost by one tenth on one judges card is beyond me. Every time I watch the competition it is a slam dunk for Witt (and Witt's 1984/85 LP is my least favourite vehicle of hers. The 1983 Paint it Black LP was way better IMO). I still don't get how it was so close!

Oh, man, I couldn't agree with this more. But I am looking at this with the context of her professional skating career, so I admit it's not a fair shot. The more I ran into Roz's commentating in the late '90s, the more I found it difficult to enjoy her triple-less skating + uninspired programs in her final professional years.

I always feel out-of-step when people talk about Sumners. I thought she was a truly beautiful skater with great qualities. Plus, I don’t have the context of what was high tech in the early 1980s, so I don’t really care about that.

I think this is also apt, taking jumps out of the discussion. I didn't have experience with her pre-1994 skating until SkatingVids & YouTube afforded me that chance. And I wasn't interested in considering any of that until someone on FSU linked to this program of hers to "White Christmas" from the 1989 World Pros.

Wow, this was over 32 years ago? We have lived!!!! LOL

Where is the vomit smiley when you need it!?!?

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Maybe but Tiffany Chin had heavy support from a powerful fed, so even if Ito could outjump her, she was just beginning to build international credibility, and I think Chin would have survived on the 2nd mark and a heavy advantage in figures IMO

Keep in mind that Midori had a convincing victory at Skate Canada '84 over Tiffany earlier in the season.

Midori backed that up with a powerful win later that season, beating Debi Thomas as well.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I think this is also apt, taking jumps out of the discussion. I didn't have experience with her pre-1994 skating until SkatingVids & YouTube afforded me that chance. And I wasn't interested in considering any of that until someone on FSU linked to this program of hers to "White Christmas" from the 1989 World Pros.

That 'White Christmas' program is a classic. Not in the least that when she performed it, Greater Washington DC was in the midst of a blizzard. A lot of folks skipped The World Pro because of the poor weather. But those that did were asked to change seats and move closer to the ice surface.

Denise also put on a great show at that competition. Much as I love Debi Thomas, I thought Biellmann was robbed of the title that year. In her technical skate, she landed three triples (lutz, toe, sal) skating to a slinky version of 'Big Spender'.

1989 World Professional Figure Skating Championships

A portion of the program shown on television, no commercials.From Landover, MDHalf of the Ice dance program and all of the ladies.

youtu.be

 

[Andora]

That 'White Christmas' program is a classic. Not in the least that when she performed it, Greater Washington DC was in the midst of a blizzard. A lot of folks skipped The World Pro because of the poor weather. But those that did were asked to change seats and move closer to the ice surface.

Denise also put on a great show at that competition. Much as I love Debi Thomas, I thought Biellmann was robbed of the title that year. In her technical skate, she landed three triples (lutz, toe, sal) skating to a slinky version of 'Big Spender'.

1989 World Professional Figure Skating Championships

A portion of the program shown on television, no commercials.From Landover, MDHalf of the Ice dance program and all of the ladies.

youtu.be

Oooh, thank you for this!

Can we also have a moment of appreciation for Hyacinth B? Her library of full videos of competitions and specials is something else. I've found so many programs I couldn't find anywhere. I was starting to think Katarina Witt's Sister's Keeper artistic program in 1996 was a fever dream.

 

[Erin]

Keep in mind that Midori had a convincing victory at Skate Canada '84 over Tiffany earlier in the season.

Midori backed that up with a powerful win later that season, beating Debi Thomas as well.

Yeah, but I think the politics would have been upped at worlds, especially with Chin as US champ. There were other times Ito should have won the short and long (coughCalgarycough), but was held back and I don’t see it happening in 1985 even if she was at home.

I do agree that missing the 1984 Olympics and 1985 Worlds really hurt Ito’s momentum.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Yeah, but I think the politics would have been upped at worlds, especially with Chin as US champ. There were other times Ito should have won the short and long (coughCalgarycough), but was held back and I don’t see it happening in 1985 even if she was at home.

I do agree that missing the 1984 Olympics and 1985 Worlds really hurt Ito’s momentum.

One of those 'what if' scenarios we'll never know the answer to, I guess.

By 1985, Chin was unfortunately at the start of the slippery slope that eventually derailed her eligible career.
She'd lost the triple flip, and the salchow was beginning to give her trouble as well.

It must really impact on a skater's psyche when they begin to lose elements they'd worked so hard to get.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Keep in mind that Midori had a convincing victory at Skate Canada '84 over Tiffany earlier in the season.

Midori backed that up with a powerful win later that season, beating Debi Thomas as well.

Why is it that in this era of USA ladies figure skating I MUCH more remember Jill than I do Tiffany or Caryn?????? I remember them.. but I could tell you Jill's costumes and programs without having to look.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Why is it that in this era of USA ladies figure skating I MUCH more remember Jill than I do Tiffany or Caryn?????? I remember them.. but I could tell you Jill's costumes and programs without having to look.

I was obsessed with Jill, too.

Maybe it was the fabulous hair, or the Vegas inspired Lauren Sheehan costumes, or the Sandra Bezic choreography.

As her future husband (Christopher Dean) said when commentating about Jill for Australian TV, 'She has that All-American, Cover Girl look."

 

[olympic]

I really should have added Trenary as a 'What if' to the 1992 scenario. She did intend to stay in competition until Albertville and she was 1990 World Champion, but then again I think even making the US team was an uphill battle considering that the 'weakest' US lady Nancy Kerrigan was capable of a 3Z and 3T-3T. Who knows. Kerrigan and Harding were capable of big crack-ups, but so was Jill

 

[Plusdinfo]

Count me as another who watches Sumners' 1984 programs and can't figure out how she was close to the gold when she wasn't even third best. I'd have to look at all the programs to know where I'd exactly place her, but in the long no way was she better than Chin, Zayak, or Witt. I didn't enjoy most of her 1990s professional work, there's no denying that her technical elements were below par, and her commentary could be the epitome of negative snobbery, but there are some bright spots in there. I found her "Black Velvet" program well done, and she was lauded by Scott Hamilton and others (if memory serves) as a real professional.

Denise Biellmann, I'm afraid, had the opposite issue in the pro world: she was undervalued and underscored. Were the pro events televised outside of North America? I wonder what others would say about her. Scott Hamilton often seemed to align with judges who "didn't get" quite a few of her ideas, but I'm not sure if he ever pointed out her superior technical content to people who were personally closer to him.

Chin is a case that beguiled me for the longest time. I read about her, saw clips online, and slowly filled in some of the pieces of her timeline. It seems that she had more hype in the 1980s than perhaps any American lady, but she wound up with no world title or Olympic medal, things that Zayak, Sumners, Thomas, and even Trenary achieved (though Trenary's accomplishment was in 1990). I guess one way to summarize her final years is that her body ended her podium runs, not choking or harsh judging. That's what I've read about 1980s star Cindy Bortz, too, though with Bortz I read it was puberty while with Chin it was injuries.

I think it's truly sad that Caryn Kadavy was sick and unable to complete her Olympic experience. Her shorts program was phenomenal, and who knows? With a surprise clean long, she may have wound up fourth or even third; I haven't calculated things.

Trying to think of missing ladies at the Olympics... What about the Russians and Japanese of late? Tuktamysheva hasn't been to an Olympics, which is harsh given her world title and talent. Wakaba Higuchi was long hyped but didn't make it in 2018. Lots of cases.

 

[Plusdinfo]

I really should have added Trenary as a 'What if' to the 1992 scenario.

Well, I've watched her fall of 1991 programs and she was far, far, far from making the Olympic team. Even if she'd made it, I don't think she would have had a solid placement. She was notches below those in front. I think it was an NBC interview where she teared up and said something like the sport wasn't the same one that she'd begun with (school figures out, 4-6 kinds of triples in).

 

[VGThuy]

I think once the American women swept at 1991 Worlds and then the three American women placing in the top 4 in Albertville, there wasn't anything really inspiring any talk about Trenary.