From Russia With Love [#37]: Summer 2020

[MacMadame]

But I am quite believer in rules and consequences. If there are no consequences, why bother with rules, if no one reinforces them and therefore no one have to stick to them?

But should their never be any exceptions? Rules without exceptions have many unintended consequences.

 

[starrynight]

The transition of Kostornaya doesn't really have much to do with the status of the coaches as the stars though. It would still be the same if Kostornaya was still with Tutberidze.

The only way for a skater to become the star is to have some kind of longevity and air of irreplaceability.

 

[hanca]

But should their never be any exceptions? Rules without exceptions have many unintended consequences.

So what exceptions would you consider acceptable and which are not?

 

[starrynight]

Tutberidze has oceans of girls anyway and I'm sure that she was already looking past the current girls to push Valieva etc etc for the future. She'll get over it. If anything it's just saved her the effort of having to push out a couple of girls in a couple of year's time.

 

[hanca]

The transition of Kostornaya doesn't really have much to do with the status of the coaches as the stars though. It would still be the same if Kostornaya was still with Tutberidze.

The only way for a skater to become the star is to have some kind of longevity and air of irreplaceability.

But I hate to break it to you, in countries like Russia they are replaceable. Not because how the federation or coaches behave to them, but because there is so many pretty decent skaters in Russia. Everyone is replaceable. And unless spots at championships are awarded according to the results, regardless of what countries the skaters belong to, the skaters won’t be able to stay on top too long because the competition is just too strong. If every countrycould send to Eyropeans/worlds any lady skater who scored at international competition let’s say over 200 and with men over 250, regardless of what country they represent, Russian skaters would be around longer. But then maybe the Europeans ladies event would be like a mini Russian nationals and the worlds ladies may be Russia versus Japan event.

 

[starrynight]

But I hate to break it to you, in countries like Russia they are replaceable. Not because how the federation or coaches behave to them, but because there is so many pretty decent skaters in Russia. Everyone is replaceable.

There are certainly champions in skating who are irreplaceable and magnificent and leave impacts on the sport for decades.

Not everyone is replaceable. But lightening doesn't constantly strike and these champions don't appear regularly.

 

[MacMadame]

So what exceptions would you consider acceptable and which are not?

If a coach kicks out a skater, then they should be kicking out their funding as well.

If a skater has some kind of family or other emergency that causes them to have to move, the funding should move with them.

Basically, anything that is involuntary or otherwise out of the control of the skater.

 

[hanca]

There are certainly champions in skating who are irreplaceable and magnificent and leave impacts on the sport for decades.

Not everyone is replaceable. But lightening doesn't constantly strike and these champions don't appear regularly.

Of course they leave impact in decades, but they are replaceable. A few years back it was Mao versus Yuna. Now they are gone and have been replaced by new stars (3A). That’s a part of life. And those new stars will be replaced by someone else.

 

[hanca]

If a coach kicks out a skater, then they should be kicking out their funding as well.

If a skater has some kind of family or other emergency that causes them to have to move, the funding should move with them.

Basically, anything that is involuntary or otherwise out of the control of the skater.

Yes, that’s a pretty reasonable condition. Though considering that the coaches are paid by the state, I don’t think they should have the right to kick out someone.

 

[starrynight]

Of course they leave impact in decades, but they are replaceable. A few years back it was Mao versus Yuna. Now they are gone and have been replaced by new stars (3A). That’s a part of life. And those new stars will be replaced by someone else.

Yuna hasn't been replaced by Kostornaya, Shcherbakova, Trusova. Sure, a few medals were won, but none of them as an individual has so far have changed the sport like Yuna did in her time on top. But give them time perhaps?

For example, Gordeva/Grinkov were not replaced by Duhamel/Radford winning the world title a couple of times. If Gilles/Poirier win the Canadian National title, they won't be replacing Virtue/Moir.

These champions leave holes behind when they leave the sport.

Anyway, there's something incredibly depressing about enthusiastically planning the end of 16 year olds' careers before they've even started.

 

[hanca]

Yuna hasn't been replaced by the 3A. Sure, a few medals were won, but none of them so far have changed the sport like Yuna did in her time on top.

For example, Gordeva/Grinkov were not replaced by Duhamel/Radford winning the world title a couple of times.

These champions leave holes behind when they leave the sport.

None of them changed the sport like Yuna did? You are joking, aren’t you? Yuna was good for the competition that was at that time, but the bottom line still is that she was winning world championship without even doing all of the triples. In comparison, 3A have jumps Yuna could not do to save her life. She got her reputation, a coach who was great at politicking and the judges decided to overlook the fact that she did three double axels and were marking them like triples, so that she did not have to do one of the triples. Maximum number of triples for a lady skater who doesn’t have triple axel is 7, because you can repeat only two tiples. How many times in her career Yuna managed seven triples FS? Seriously, I have never seen such an overscored skater. But I guess, if you get Orser on your side...

 

[kwanfan1818]

If someone wants to be fired/kicked out, they can usually act in a way that makes it reasonable for them to be fired/kicked out. I think it depends on the situation, but I agree, in principle, if the coach/rink accepts someone to cash in and then kicks out the skater, the coach shouldn't benefit.

In the US and Canada, there are a lot of arts schools and teachers who require a full semester or year, prepaid, and they don't give refunds except under exceptional circumstances. Which is why so many dancer and musician stories have an "I wanted to quit, and my parents told my I could after I finished out the year/semester, because, dammit, it was paid for." (And then they ended up continuing.)

 

[MacMadame]

have changed the sport like Yuna did in her time on top.

How has Yuna changed the sport? I really can't think of anything.

 

[starrynight]

How has Yuna changed the sport? I really can't think of anything.

Revolutionised it in South Korea - massive fame, huge individual rabid fan base, skating shows etc. Something as fierce as Yunabots didn’t come out of nothing.

 

[starrynight]

I just think Kostornaya has the ‘IT factor’ and the potential to be something very, very special with the right programs and a decent length career.

Which is why I’m not interested in her being called 3A or having her shoved off a conveyer belt by the end of next year.

From a purely global skating perspective, I want her to show her potential and for us all to be able to enjoy her show her very best. Couldn’t care less about some coaching model an individual country has.

Kostornaya isn’t 3A or ‘product’ - she’s individually a skater with special talent and potential.

As an aside the 3A thing is interesting because it has allowed those three girls to combine talents to form a mythical single super skater called 3A. But they are 3 skaters with their own strengths and weaknesses.

So it’s not possible to say 3A has overtaken X Skater in reputation. 3A isn’t on the entry sheet.

 

[mjb52]

I don't know that it's totally fair to be as strict this year because the circumstances are so unusual. It's interesting that Kolyada and Kostornaya both left Novogorsk and switched coaches and even Zagitova seems to have left a little early (?) - that part was confusing. The psychological tension of being trapped at home for months than going to a closed base may have contributed to people making decisions differently than they normally would. It's not like April/May were typical times in the history of the world.

 

[MacMadame]

Revolutionised it in South Korea - massive fame, huge individual rabid fan base, skating shows etc. Something as fierce as Yunabots didn’t come out of nothing.

I think you are misusing the term revolutionized.

I agree that Yuna helped make figure skating very popular in South Korea. I don't agree that anything she did changed the sport of figure skating. No competitors started approaching figure skating differently because of her. No move she did then was repeated ad nauseam not just by her direct competitors but at the lower levels.

 

[starrynight]

I think the fact that after all these years even mentioning Yuna’s name is like poking a bee hive with a stick proves the presence she has in skating. We could probably fill up another 20 pages about her.

 

[hanca]

I just think Kostornaya has the ‘IT factor’ and the potential to be something very, very special with the right programs and a decent length career.

Which is why I’m not interested in her being called 3A or having her shoved off a conveyer belt by the end of next year.

From a purely global skating perspective, I want her to show her potential and for us all to be able to enjoy her show her very best. Couldn’t care less about some coaching model an individual country has.

Kostornaya isn’t 3A or ‘product’ - she’s individually a skater with special talent and potential.

As an aside the 3A thing is interesting because it has allowed those three girls to combine talents to form a mythical single super skater called 3A. But they are 3 skaters with their own strengths and weaknesses.

So it’s not possible to say 3A has overtaken X Skater in reputation. 3A isn’t on the entry sheet.

I think you are reading too much into the term 3A. I used it because I was lazy to write three names, when one can include all of them in one number and one letter. I never in any of my post mention anything about conveyor bell, so that’s meaning which you attributed to it yourself. Don’t try to attribute your thoughts to other people.

Nevertheless, you are right that Kostornaya did not revolutionise figure skating, because she has shown only triple axel and that has been already done. However, Trusova and Scherbakova definitely did manage to revolutionise skating, because doing quads, especially several of them in one program, have not been done in senior ladies before. So even though Yuna has much longer career, I would say that Scherbakova and Trusova are written in history much more even if they retired tomorrow, because they moved skating much further than Yuna ever could.

 

[hanca]

I think the fact that after all these years even mentioning Yuna’s name is like poking a bee hive with a stick proves the presence she has in skating. We could probably fill up another 20 pages about her.

Of course it is. I have never seen anyone so overscored.

 

[MacMadame]

I think the fact that after all these years even mentioning Yuna’s name is like poking a bee hive with a stick proves the presence she has in skating. We could probably fill up another 20 pages about her.

I am not disagreeing that she made skating popular in SK or that she had a presence in skating. I'm saying she didn't change the sport. Hardly anyone changes their sport even if they are very successful.

One reason I think she didn't change the sport is that hardly anyone talks about her now that's retired. We still talk about Kwan, for example. We also still talk about Tonya Harding. She definitely changed the sport without being remotely popular or even winning a lot. She put it on the map and an entire decade of skaters had a pro career because of her.

 

[tony]

If anything, I think it was Miki Ando (and an up-and-coming Mao Asada) that really pushed the ladies technically.

Nakano and Nelidina did their 3Axel's starting in late 2002, but the former hardly ever got full credit for her attempts and the latter had some of the worst basic skating/spin positions ever seen on the senior level, so neither were serious threats at that point. Nakano didn't even get to Worlds until 2006.

Ando, on the other hand, came in having landed a quad on the junior level and was throwing off (not the prettiest) 3+3's like it was nothing. To that point, there was Kostner who was having mild success trying the same, but Ando bested what Kostner did at Worlds in her first attempt in 2004- even battling Kwan for a medal. I think that also started the big rush to get the 3+3 as part of the arsenal, especially in the short.

I never really got Kim's skating until her comeback, to be honest, and even then it wasn't as if I was blown away. She was good, but I still think the 2007-2011 or so cycle was extremely weak with the top tier of skaters (meaning the top 4 or so) and then the rest of the field.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Has Kostornaia asked for an exception for her funding to be moved to Plushenko?

Russian Feds last week said "no one has applied for a transfer as of yet" (not the coach and not the skater).

 

[MacMadame]

I never really got Kim's skating until her comeback, to be honest, and even then it wasn't as if I was blown away. She was good, but I still think the 2007-2011 or so cycle was extremely weak with the top tier of skaters (meaning the top 4 or so) and then the rest of the field.

She was extremely consistent and almost always delivered. That's really hard to do. I really respect her as a competitor.

I agree with you about Miki too.

 

[Bigbird]

I think you are reading too much into the term 3A. I used it because I was lazy to write three names, when one can include all of them in one number and one letter. I never in any of my post mention anything about conveyor bell, so that’s meaning which you attributed to it yourself. Don’t try to attribute your thoughts to other people.

Nevertheless, you are right that Kostornaya did not revolutionise figure skating, because she has shown only triple axel and that has been already done. However, Trusova and Scherbakova definitely did manage to revolutionise skating, because doing quads, especially several of them in one program, have not been done in senior ladies before. So even though Yuna has much longer career, I would say that Scherbakova and Trusova are written in history much more even if they retired tomorrow, because they moved skating much further than Yuna ever could.

And yet the only single female skaters I may watch on repeat are Trusova and Kostornaia. And it has almost nothing to do with jumps just IT. Oh well.

 

[starrynight]

I never in any of my post mention anything about conveyor bell, so that’s meaning which you attributed to it yourself. Don’t try to attribute your thoughts to other people.

I never said you did

I have no quarrel with you Hanca. I don’t want to fight - I just want to talk skating.

 

[Ka3sha]

Aleksandr Abt also joined Pluschenko’s academy

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[Ananas Astra]

Aleksandr Abt also joined Pluschenko’s academy

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Great news! I've always loved his skating. He and Plush have been good friends since they were kids. Abt was the only one to protect Zhenya and to tell other skaters off when they were bullying him in training camps etc.

 

[antmanb]

And yet the only single female skaters I may watch on repeat are Trusova and Kostornaia. And it has almost nothing to do with jumps just IT. Oh well.

I think it's probably because you're creepy af to be honest.

 

[Darkverse]

Has Kostornaia asked for an exception for her funding to be moved to Plushenko? If I'm following the thread correctly, the two month window for changing coaches outside one's club is about being able to transfer funding, not being blocked from changing coaches outside the club, if the skater and new coach come to an agreement about funding the training.

This is perfectly understandable as a model: since the clubs are there to produce champions for the country, they are funded/subsidized by the government to avoid free market incentives. But, at a certain point, a club needs to know that its funding is set, so that they can come up with a budget and make the appropriate commitments to the team, including consultants. So, yeah, her training allocation should stay with Tutberidze's rink.

But exceptions are made all the time when they want to make exceptions. Students have transferred to Eteri outside of the transfer window, just recently Kolyada transferred outside of the transfer window. Nobody kicked up a fuss and held onto funding for dear life.