Female Sportscasters/Journalists and their Tweets

[genevieve]

What you've described sounds like men who have been horribly abused.

This is one of the assumptions I was talking about. Why do you assume that only abused men are capable of this behavior? Or (going back to your first post), that "middle-class white dudes" would never think these things unless they were forced to read them?

 

[genevieve]

What you've described sounds like men who have been horribly abused.

This is one of the assumptions I was talking about. Why do you assume that only abused men are capable of this behavior? Or (going back to your first post), that "middle-class white dudes" would never think these things unless they were forced to read them?

 

[rjblue]

The online misogyny and abuse that I have personally seen is in the gaming world. And the men spewing the abuse are coming completely from a sense of entitlement and exclusion. It is quite disturbing, and it takes an immense amount of conviction and bravery for women to stick with it and not be hounded out.

 

[TalentedButHumble]

This is one of the assumptions I was talking about. Why do you assume that only abused men are capable of this behavior? Or (going back to your first post), that "middle-class white dudes" would never think these things unless they were forced to read them?

Exactly. Peter, you seem like a nice, thoughtful guy, but I'm bothered by the wording of that original post. It comes across as classist and racist. You really think "middle-class white" guys don't include men who have highly demeaning opinions of women?

There was a controversy on social media surrounding #NotAllMen, which in a a way is remiscent of the #AllLivesMatter reaction to the deaths of black people at police hands. IOW there are a lot of defensive responses to horrible situations, or attempts to marginalize the causes of the problems. Rather than addressing that the issues are widespread, endemic to a culture, and deeply ingrained.

At the less violent end of the spectrum it begins with the "dumb women" jokes, mansplaining, or perhaps job discrimination that women the age of PRLady and me have encountered for decades. Right on up to examples like these, women in media routinely getting death and rape threats.

BTW having just watched "The Experimenter," about the infamous Milgram "obedience" experiments, I thought it was interesting to see these guys look off-camera to the producer, or apologize to the woman, but then keep on reading because they were "supposed to."

 

[gkelly]

Young men who are getting little to no direction from the men in their lives and instead take cues from strangers about what it is to be a man are males who are being neglected. Neglect is a form of abuse.

Or they have been getting direction from older men in their lives who also feel threatened by women and express those attitudes toward their sons etc. Men who grew up in a time and culture where they felt men and women each knew their place and are threatened by women invading traditionally male spaces, especially if they feel they personally have lost power/male privilege as a result. Maybe not specifically to female sportswriters, but these women stand as representatives of all women who threaten these guys' sense of self.

The men making these comments are not necessarily young.

And, whatever age, they may often be drunk when they post these hateful comments, which they would only think but keep to themselves, or like minded male friends and family members, when sober.

 

[PeterG]

After my recent experiences with an internet dating site, I can tell you there are a lot of men out there who gave no clue about how to communicate with women. It doesn't necessarily come from a place of abuse but rather just a very strange perception about what is acceptable behaviour.

There are so many forms of abuse. Too many to name, as the list is so long! But neglect is one form of abuse. People who are not taught throughout their childhood and teenage years on how to effectively communicate with other people experience one form of neglect. Not being taught what is and what is not acceptable behaviour is another form of abuse, also in the form of neglect.

Everyone might face different challenges/sufferings in life, but I don't think the majority suffer abuse. Maybe we just have a different idea of what abuse is.

Abuse is not one thing. Abuse might be like how people talk about snowflakes...none are ever exactly the same. So each time a form of abuse occurs, it's probably slightly different than what anybody else has experienced. Of course, there are enough common acts that occur that we can determines types of abuse, such as neglect, physical intimidation, insults, witnessing aggressive behaviour, online bullying, favouritism, inappropriate touching, manipulative behaviour, denial of health problems, public ridicule, verbal abuse, physical abuse, threats, psychological abuse, sexual abuse, etc.

I believe misogyny runs deep because of culture, tradition and religion, not abuse.

Agree and disagree. Culture, tradition and religion can all be positive. And all can be negative as well. None of them are one or the other. The negative aspects, through misogyny (and many other things) are abusive aspects of cultures, traditions and religions. We don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater, however. But we do need to look at all this things and acknowledge the helpful, positive aspects of them and question the hurtful and negative aspects of them...and then take action to eliminate those negative things.

It takes time to bring change to thousands of years of patriarchy.

Agree 100%. But the message of the video to "just stop it" is so simplistic, however...to the point of being in one way, ineffective. Instead, people acting out abusive behaviour are being given attention (by their tweets getting an international audience), but they, along with the viewer, are given very little about how to bring about change so that this behaviour fades away and eventually ends. Plus I think a detailed plan of action will cut down on the "waiting it out" aspect of social change.

 

[overedge]

I appreciate that this is a complex problem, but I don't see why the message has to be anything more than "just stop it".

 

[PRlady]

I think the message is more than just stop it, but that's the goal. There has to be both carrot and stick. Men need to be banned from social media much more quickly for verbal abuse. And women can do everything possible to pay attention to and reward polite behavior from men who disagree with them in those forums.

I've engaged at length with men whose viewpoints I vehemently disagree with as long as the discussion is civil and respectful. I try to model what works and never respond to ugliness, I just block it.

As to the root causes, the whole definition of masculinity, in every single culture I'm aware of, is the root cause. And changing it is the work of generations. I don't hold with a broad definition of abuse of men as the root cause, that's turning male privilege inside out.

 

[PeterG]

@PeterG, from what I see of your comments, the way you talk about people being abused creating abuse seems to come from a very personal place. Is it an understanding you have as well for homophobes or racists?

I believe oppressive behaviour only occurs if oppression happens first. All humans are oppressed as youth. The school system is one form of oppression with the needs of approximately thirty students being served by...only one adult? What crockpot concocted this mess of an idea?? Being lied to is a form of abuse. So homophobes and racists have been told lies SO many times, even though as young people they questioned the informed being given to them as they knew it did not make sense. Eventually some were yelled at when they did not accept what was being told to them, some were punished in various ways for not agreeing, some were given the fear of being excluded from the family & community if they did not submit...again, like the snowflakes, the varying ways young people are dealt with can vary dramatically. Eventually a mob mentality takes over. Very abusive situations!

By this I mean, is it how you understand the behaviour, but also do you show them as much understanding as you do the misogynists we're talking about here?

I'm sure I'm like everybody else in this thread who, after watching the video in question, was filled with rage and hurt as to what these sportscasters have had to endure. But that's not a place I want to stay in for very long, if I can help it. We've all learned different ways of coping with things. Luckily with television and the internet, we have great examples of how people deal with the horrible ways people can act. I remember seeing a video of a gay guy who was bullied by a kid for years in school. In his adulthood, the bully started doing volunteer work after having kids and wanted to learn knew ways to live as what he had been given throughout his youth was not enough to enable him to have a happy life. One of his volunteer jobs was working on a project that involved gay men's health, and he became an important person in making positive things happen with this project. And coincidentally, that gay youth he had bullied became involved in the same project and the "bully" from his childhood got to make amends to him and the two became very good friends as adults.

In regards to racist behaviour, I remember when Whoopi Goldberg had a late-night half-hour talk show (in the 90's?) and she interviewed the leader of the Ku Klux Klan. I remember hearing her talk about it later and how she basically let him talk and just listened. Only asked questions when the conversation was dying down. She gave him space to speak about what led him to being where he was, although she did she part of her was letting him dig himself into a hole. So she wasn't completely saintly, but she did exercise what must have been an incredible amount of restraint. And non-judgement.

So things like this I try to let be my examples rather than acting on the venom I feel course through my veins when I heard these horrid tweets about these women being read out loud. I think that if I see people as a problem or as an enemy, it's going to be tougher for us to get to a place where we can create positive change together.

From what I see of the Twitter abuse, it's more about directing hatred to specific people types they don't like (gay, black, women) whom they perceive has having a power role. The Guardian did a great piece on who gets attacked: The Dark Side of Guardian comments

Ugh...

In my view, not every online abuser has been abused, just like not every person abused goes on to abuse others.

I think that what people experience in life has so many variables to consider. All humans deal with the abuse they receive, but the types of abuse each human deals with varies on the types, the frequency, who is acting abusive...plus many other things to consider (which will come to me eventually, but not right now!) On the flip side, there are tons of variables as to who is there to turn to when abuse occurs? Some people have a lot of resources, some have little to none and most have something in the middle. Then there's how effective are the people we turn to in dealing with the abusive behaviour that occurs? How much responsibility does the person accept in regards to their behaviour? How are things set up for those who act abusively to make a positive change?

Also, I'm thinking we all get abused daily and we probably abuse people daily. When I volunteer at the computer classes at the library and there are way more people needing help than there are helps, I get curt with people who aren't as ready to proceed as quickly as others are. Afterwards, I go to get a smoothie to feel better, and one of the clerks at the counter verrrrrrrrry slowly makes a beverage for her customer friend so they can chat longer. And I wait. And wait. And wait. These are little examples of abuse of course. But over the course of a lifetime? And some people get WAY more than their share than others. And some get comfort often when abuse occurs and some get just a little comfrt...and some get none. And some get their abuses addressed and get to see changes occur so that it no longer happens. Some have no idea what that might look like! And most are somewhere in the middle. And some people get the most negative extremes of all this, whose behaviour is also very extreme. And they end up being the subject of youtube videos and discussion boards.

 

[Johnny_Fever]

Jenny Kirk, for instance, has stated that she gets tweets from men showing their private parts. I'm sure Dick Button gets similar tweets.

Yeah, but Dick likes 'em.

 

[Johnny_Fever]

..........Watch the video.

I did. Its fake. I've seen better acting by William Shatner.

 

[Aerobicidal]

I'm not condoning the negativity, but doesn't it have to start with something?

Does being a woman qualify as "something" for you? Because I'm pretty sure that's where it starts a whole lot of the time.

 

[Aussie Willy]

There are so many forms of abuse. Too many to name, as the list is so long! But neglect is one form of abuse. People who are not taught throughout their childhood and teenage years on how to effectively communicate with other people experience one form of neglect. Not being taught what is and what is not acceptable behaviour is another form of abuse, also in the form of neglect.

I think you are probably trying to extend the definition of abuse further than what it actually is and that is fine because that is probably your perception of it. However there are so many factors that go into make up how men treat women which have much to do with culture and role models.

It actually doesn't help in society that you still have a percentage of men in high profile positions in the media who denigrate women, particularly in the sporting environments which include our football codes which are one of the strongest bastions of misogyny. And unfortunately those codes are one of the biggest cultural influences on society. It is a reason why I don't follow these sports and have very little respect for them.

The Australian government to their credit is actually taking the issue of violence against women very seriously. It is more focussed on domestic abuse. Interesting 2 women every week in Australia are killed at the hands of their partners (yet terrorism apparently is the greater threat in society according to our media). There is a new advertisting campaign directed at the cultural aspect of male behaviour. He is the website and it is worth watching the new advertisement that highlights the cultural aspect of it.

https://www.respect.gov.au/?gclid=CJjK5p_ytMwCFQwJvAodwqACbQ

The online misogyny and abuse that I have personally seen is in the gaming world. And the men spewing the abuse are coming completely from a sense of entitlement and exclusion. It is quite disturbing, and it takes an immense amount of conviction and bravery for women to stick with it and not be hounded out.

I am not involved in gaming but I have heard a lot about the abuse that women receive in the gaming world.

 

[Aussie Willy]

I did. Its fake. I've seen better acting by William Shatner.

And compared to your comments I have seen better tweet posting by Kanye West

 

[PeterG]

This is one of the assumptions I was talking about. Why do you assume that only abused men are capable of this behavior?

I don't believe that healthy and happy people spend their time telling others that they hope they get raped and/or beaten to death. Something has gone wrong to make somebody think that way.

Or (going back to your first post), that "middle-class white dudes" would never think these things unless they were forced to read them?

Of the thirteen men in the video, only four were men of colour. So I mentioned "middle-class white dudes" because that's who the makes of the video chose to feature the most. I believe that all the men in this video (of Asian, African and European decent) look to me like the type of men who spend their time focussing on what interests them. I could be wrong, I just didn't get the feeling that any of these men were the type to post the kinds of things that they were reading.

Exactly. Peter, you seem like a nice, thoughtful guy, but I'm bothered by the wording of that original post. It comes across as classist and racist. You really think "middle-class white" guys don't include men who have highly demeaning opinions of women?

I was talking only about the men that were picked to be part of the video. Of course, there are middle-class white men who have serious misogyny problems. I don't think any of them were featured in this video, though. How about if we saw some guy storm out of the room because what he was reading read too much like something he had written? How about some guy laughing because he agreed with what he was reading? Both would have been shocking...and more effective.

BTW having just watched "The Experimenter," about the infamous Milgram "obedience" experiments, I thought it was interesting to see these guys look off-camera to the producer, or apologize to the woman, but then keep on reading because they were "supposed to."

Interesting point. I saw that movie recently also. I did expect one of the men to say they were not going to continue reading. It's possible that this did happen, but the goal of the video was to have all the tweets read so people would be aware of the posts these women have had to endure. Maybe the long pauses and the struggling we see the women go through were meant to make that point of how they didn't want to keep reading. The last guy seemed to be saying, "I'm not reading anymore" by his actions. I would have liked to hear some (or all) of them say that they weren't going to read anymore, though.

 

[rjblue]

Peter, I think you are focusing too much on how men can behave so monstrously. The point is they DO, and too many people think it is funny, and no one is stopping them. In fact, if a person tries to stop them, they too turn into a target.

It should be a crime. The right to free speech should not protect them in the world I'd like to live in.

 

[overedge]

Peter, I think you are focusing too much on how men can behave so monstrously. The point is they DO, and too many people think it is funny, and no one is stopping them. In fact, if a person tries to stop them, they too turn into a target.

This makes me think of the FHRITP incident that happened in Toronto last year. A female TV reporter challenged a guy who was shouting that at her while she was doing a live segment - in other words, while doing her job - and he tried to pretend it was a joke. And *she* got unbelievable abuse on social media for challenging him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n28BO3wnOTE

(The guy actually got fired by his employer, but was reinstated later on.)

And the same thing happened to another female TV reporter in Toronto just a few days ago.
http://www.citynews.ca/2016/04/27/c...nsiders-charges-after-latest-fhritp-incident/

 

[misskarne]

It's upsetting that female sports presenters routinely get so much abuse, but unfortunately, it's also unsurprising - especially in traditionally "male" sports, like various codes of football or motorsport. I can't even begin to tell you the number of times my opinion on something has been discounted just because "I'm a girl". Or that I'm told I can't possibly be a real fan of xyz, it must be because Player X is cute.

(But apparently it's perfectly acceptable for men to watch ladies' tennis because of girls in short skirts, and people don't challenge their "right" to be a fan.)

The concept that woman a) have brains b) have opinions and c) like sport appears to be hard one to grasp/accept for a lot of men.

 

[genevieve]

I don't believe that healthy and happy people spend their time telling others that they hope they get raped and/or beaten to death. Something has gone wrong to make somebody think that way.

Forgive me if I save my for the people who are the targets of their vitriol.

Of the thirteen men in the video, only four were men of colour. So I mentioned "middle-class white dudes" because that's who the makes of the video chose to feature the most. I believe that all the men in this video (of Asian, African and European decent) look to me like the type of men who spend their time focussing on what interests them. I could be wrong, I just didn't get the feeling that any of these men were the type to post the kinds of things that they were reading.

Why are you so determined to make the focus of this thread anything BUT the fact that women (in this case in sportscasting) are routinely subjected to horrendous treatment via online media? Are you even aware of your mansplaining ways here?

 

[Cachoo]

I appreciate that this is a complex problem, but I don't see why the message has to be anything more than "just stop it".

I remember a discussion about rape on college campuses. There was some discussion that perhaps sororities should be hosting parties instead of fraternities and so much advice was offered to these women who attend these parties. Finally someone said "How about men stop raping women?" Yes, how about that?

I'm sure Peter's right about some who post this trash but I think others feel threatened by the emerging power of females and it results in this ugliness.

 

[Aerobicidal]

In my art history class last fall, when we were talking about Barbara Kruger, we had a really interesting discussion about how straight men have had (more or less) a monopoly on shaping what is considered attractive and desirable in the West. I argued that this isn't only true about their desire for women, but also their homosocial desire to impress/interact with other men (I think Kruger points that out in this work).

For that same class, I did a project on representations of black male sexuality in the art of Bjarne Melgaard (which is a different controversy) and used Jose Esteban Muñoz as my theoretical framework. Muñoz criticizes the turn toward negativity/paranoia/shaming in leftist politics and argues we should embrace hope and utopianism.

I really like that framework, because it acknowledges the harm done by prejudices (including micro-aggression), but it also embraces the possibility of subverting and resisting oppression--for example, through performance, drag, music, various political stuff, etc.

It's so common these days (/threads) to see people either be dismissive or angry towards women, queer people, and trans people; clearly there are significant barriers to equality and liberation. However, I think that responding with only anger and negativity is--while understandable--not necessarily the best answer.

Ultimately, I'm not sure a youtube video is going to change the world, but I think the goal is admirable and any efforts to fight disempowerment should be open to criticism but also hope. The toxic shit that gets thrown at people who cross boundaries--whether related to gender, race, sexuality, religion, or whatever--is not something I feel comfortable denying, nor do I feel comfortable letting white men explain that it's really about white men. And, for what it's worth, I am a white man.

 

[Aussie Willy]

I don't believe that healthy and happy people spend their time telling others that they hope they get raped and/or beaten to death.

But stupid people do.

 

[TygerLily]

This makes me think of the FHRITP incident that happened in Toronto last year. A female TV reporter challenged a guy who was shouting that at her while she was doing a live segment - in other words, while doing her job - and he tried to pretend it was a joke. And *she* got unbelievable abuse on social media for challenging him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n28BO3wnOTE

(The guy actually got fired by his employer, but was reinstated later on.)

Not to defend the guy, but he wasn't the one who yelled FHRITP -- he was a witness who basically defended the trend, saying it was funny (and said something else I don't care to repeat but is in this article and at the end of the video).

 

[Scrufflet]

I remember a discussion about rape on college campuses. There was some discussion that perhaps sororities should be hosting parties instead of fraternities and so much advice was offered to these women who attend these parties. Finally someone said "How about men stop raping women?" Yes, how about that?

I'm sure Peter's right about some who post this trash but I think others feel threatened by the emerging power of females and it results in this ugliness.

Nailed it, Cachoo! I too think there are many reasons for them doing it. And I think a lot of them (maybe all) are rooted in fear. Fear of loss of power, fear of the "other" (meaning female and therefore unknown to male experience), fear of who knows what else.

I too have noticed that 90% of the discussions around rape culture seem to focus on what women can do to protect themselves. Rarely do they focus on what men can do to stop themselves and others from doing it, on what it means to be a man, on how boys can be raised properly.
And I applaud Peter for raising this and caring about it.
I wish more men would speak up!

 

[Cachoo]

Thank you Scrufflet and thank you Peter too. At my other favorite site this guy is getting hell from a few other guys because he wants to bring something tasty to food days at his job. And some guys are questioning his manhood based on this. It is effing amazing how insecure some folks are now.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Thank you Scrufflet and thank you Peter too. At my other favorite site this guy is getting hell from a few other guys because he wants to bring something tasty to food days at his job. And some guys are questioning his manhood based on this. It is effing amazing how insecure some folks are now.

I know I have told teenage boys off for making comments about like this. Was sitting a skating competition one day when a boy, who was there with his girlfriend who I knew, made a comment about the boy was on the ice at the time being gay. I told him in no uncertain terms that he had no idea what he was talking about and that he should keep his mouth shut making comments like that. Have done that a few times too. They are usually quite shocked that someone would call them out on it.

Kind of same dog different bone. But we need to step in say something when we hear inappropriate talk about anyone based on gender and sexuality.

 

[meggonzo]

Not to defend the guy, but he wasn't the one who yelled FHRITP -- he was a witness who basically defended the trend, saying it was funny (and said something else I don't care to repeat but is in this article and at the end of the video).

The two guys that were defending it came off as bigger assholes than the guy that said it.

 

[TygerLily]

All three looked pretty bad, honestly.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Not so much female sports broadcasters but an article about the latest Ghostbusters and reviews of the trailer.

http://www.theage.com.au/entertainm...n-the-ire-of-misogynists-20160502-gojn50.html

I have seen the trailer and I personally cannot understand why they decided to remake what was a great movie and am not keen to see it on that basis alone. But I hadn't thought about the response in relation to using women in the film and what kind of comments that will draw.

 

[Cachoo]

Not so much female sports broadcasters but an article about the latest Ghostbusters and reviews of the trailer.

http://www.theage.com.au/entertainm...n-the-ire-of-misogynists-20160502-gojn50.html

I have seen the trailer and I personally cannot understand why they decided to remake what was a great movie and am not keen to see it on that basis alone. But I hadn't thought about the response in relation to using women in the film and what kind of comments that will draw.

See heres the deal: I don't like remaking the old movie---I would rather the women be the persons who are Ghostbusters now and go with a fresh story. But this ugliness directed at the women in the film is so predictable now. Honestly I hope the asshats who write this stuff do not have wives, daughters, sisters etc... When I read this stuff I think about the violent "ghost" that Carol Kane played in "Scrooged." I'd love to fly around and nail someone with a toaster when they are behaving badly on line.

 

[Jay42]

I am not involved in gaming but I have heard a lot about the abuse that women receive in the gaming world.

I'm a casual gamer and honestly half the reason why I won't game online anymore is because I don't want to deal with the abuse, my username is very obviously feminine and I won't change it. The other half is because I'm really not the best gamer out there and because they've made games way more complicated with online play now. I'd need to start getting into Call of Duty games again.

It's upsetting that female sports presenters routinely get so much abuse, but unfortunately, it's also unsurprising - especially in traditionally "male" sports, like various codes of football or motorsport. I can't even begin to tell you the number of times my opinion on something has been discounted just because "I'm a girl". Or that I'm told I can't possibly be a real fan of xyz, it must be because Player X is cute.

(But apparently it's perfectly acceptable for men to watch ladies' tennis because of girls in short skirts, and people don't challenge their "right" to be a fan.)

The concept that woman a) have brains b) have opinions and c) like sport appears to be hard one to grasp/accept for a lot of men.

When I first started working at my current job I met a guy who was also a fan of Doctor Who. Because my favourite Doctor is Matt Smith not David Tennant he told me that I obviously couldn't be a real fan of the show because I didn't like the same Doctor he liked. I literally had to prove I knew more about the show than he did to get him to back off. It took around 3 months and he drafted other guys we worked with to try and convince me I was wrong too. Fortunately the other guys, while they did have different opinions, didn't care as much that mine was different and let it go. I still find it insane that I had a 3 month debate with a guy over a TV show.

I remember a discussion about rape on college campuses. There was some discussion that perhaps sororities should be hosting parties instead of fraternities and so much advice was offered to these women who attend these parties. Finally someone said "How about men stop raping women?" Yes, how about that?

I'm sure Peter's right about some who post this trash but I think others feel threatened by the emerging power of females and it results in this ugliness.

This should work but if it doesn't link directly to the right part of the page just click on number 4.
"Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them."

This comic illustrates why we need Feminism really well.