Annonymously Mailing Religious Pamphlets To An Atheist - Thoughts?

[alexikeguchi]

I also wouldn't take this mailing too seriously. Here's a funny story... One of my college professors, who was btw both an atheist and feminist, ordered some clothes from LL Bean. Next, she started getting mailings from Cabela's and then the NRA. Finally, she started getting solicitations from the Republican Party. We all had a good laugh over that.

 

[Johnny_Fever]

So what is it about me that doesn't surprise you that someone feels I'm in need saving?

If its worth your while, you might want to ask some other folks in your building/complex. Maybe everybody got those pamphlets.

 

[agalisgv]

@MacMadame you're not wrong. There are plenty of myths about gods who died or suffered to help humanity, Osiris, Odin and Prometheus off the top of my head, so that part of the Jesus story is not sui generis.

Interesting Christian reinterpretations of ancient mythologies , but factually incorrect. Osiris was killed by his brother Set out of jealousy for being given the throne over him (and perhaps because of impregnating his wife).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris

Prometheus was tortured (though not really killed since he was a Titan and therefore immortal) due to tricking Zeus in a challenge they had.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus

Odin isn't attested to until after the time of Jesus, so this would not have been a preexistent theme framing the Jesus narratives.

 

[Johnny_Fever]

Well, they're all cool spaceship names. That's the main thing.

 

[jeffisjeff]

^^I was thinking they were all goa'uld names.

 

[Twilight1]

I find any conversation about religion annoying so if I receive mail about it, it would annoy me a lot too especially if I was the only one who received it.

I don't force my spirituality on anone so expect the same respect back.

 

[Johnny_Fever]

^^I was thinking they were all goa'uld names.

Well, I was in the right genre: Sci-Fi.

 

[Johnny_Fever]

I don't force my spirituality on anone so expect the same respect back.

Give the old bag a break. She means well. She wants him to go to heaven.

 

[PeterG]

I showed the envelope to a librarian who I do volunteer work with at the library today. I told her to look at the envelope first before looking inside (to see if she noticed there was no return address). She's a very sweet person and for some reason the thought "hey...she might be Christian" went through my head. But when she looked inside, she said, "what the hell"? I shushed her as I feared what might happen to her for using that kind of language considering what she was holding...

 

[snoopy]

Were you thinking the librarian might be the sender?


From a strictly marketing perspective, those flyers don't look very effective. Maybe for someone who already considered themselves a Christian but was the wrong type. I'd be surprised if they hooked an atheist. And that makes me think it wasn't personal. I'd expect there to be things about proof of God! before getting into "which church saves".

 

[overedge]

I'd be curious if anyone else in the building got the same mail. It could be that one of the local churches or groups decided to have a "save-a-thon" and did a hand-addressed mass mailing.

 

[maatTheViking]

Odin isn't attested to until after the time of Jesus, so this would not have been a preexistent theme framing the Jesus narratives.

huh? Pretty sure the ancient Norse did not know of Jesus, and Christianity didn't reach that far until the Asgard mythology was well established. But maybe I am misinformed?

To my knowledge, though, Odin didn't sacrifice himself for humanity, but to obtain wisdom/magic (runes). That is how I recall it from Havamal.

hmm, reading wikipedia, its seems that:

The "windy tree" from which the victim hangs is often identified with the world tree Yggdrasil by commentators. The entire scene, the sacrifice of a god to himself, the execution method by hanging the victim on a tree, and the wound inflicted on the victim by a spear, is often compared to the crucifixion of Christ as narrated in the gospels. The parallelism of Odin and Christ during the period of open co-existence of Christianity and Norse paganism in Scandinavia (the 9th to 12th centuries, corresponding with the assumed horizon of the poem's composition) is also evident from other sources. To what extent this parallelism is an incidental similarity of the mode of human sacrifice offered to Odin and the crucifixion, and to what extent a Christian influence may have occurred, is a complex question on which scholarly opinions vary. [7]

(added emphasis mine)

 

[PRlady]

Interesting Christian reinterpretations of ancient mythologies , but factually incorrect. Osiris was killed by his brother Set out of jealousy for being given the throne over him (and perhaps because of impregnating his wife).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris

Prometheus was tortured (though not really killed since he was a Titan and therefore immortal) due to tricking Zeus in a challenge they had.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus

Odin isn't attested to until after the time of Jesus, so this would not have been a preexistent theme framing the Jesus narratives.

Osiris was resurrected. Prometheus was tortured for giving fire to mankind. And while Middle Easterners did not know the Norse, the reverse was true as well, and some stories show parallel mythological tropes. (ETA that maat provides more detail above. )

Clearly Christianity centered on an extraordinarily powerful story to succeed as well as it did, but that doesn't mean all elements of the Jesus story were new or unique.

 

[my little pony]

this makes me itchy like when born agains used to leave tracts in lieu of money when i worked in restaurants. i'm sorry they were so cowardly that they didnt leave their name so we could prank them back.

 

[mrr50]

It's flat out creepy.

Sometimes odd things show up for even odder reasons. I received signed Ronald Reagan/George Bush pictures during that era. Freaked me out. Then I realized I had signed some local candidate's papers out of the kindness of my heart. I lived in a very rural, low population area. Someone needed a signature. I felt that anyone should be allowed on a ballot. I ended up on a list.

 

[smurfy]

I would find it creepy as well. If you want to say or share something with somebody, own it, do not send it in anonmymous envelope. That alone discounts anything they have to say. Also I think religion is a personal thing - and keep it to yourself.

 

[ArtisticFan]

I would certainly find it creepy. I'm of the belief that if you have something to say to me, say it to my face. I dislike anonymous messages that are sent with any intent.

When I first moved out on my own in the US I became very involved with a local synagogue that had programs to help acclimate to life in this country. Living in the South, that did not go over well with my neighbors and I began to receive flyers, pamphlets, etc. on my car, in my mail box, on my door, etc. I brushed them off at first and then I came home to my rental to find one with a post it note with my name on it sitting on my dining room table. Since I lived alone that freaked me out. I called the landlord and asked who had access to my duplex other than the usual. Turns out that one of the maintenance men had joined in with the group trying to "save my soul."

I'm not sure why they thought freaking me out would make me more inclined to go to church. It has certainly created a feeling of distrust I have toward evangelical or fundamentalists of any persuasion. There is a difference in junk mail and being harassed by idiots in a threatening way. I would never subscribe to any religion or belief that found that sort of thing appropriate whatever its intent.

One of the pieces I received included the name and address of a local church. I did contact the pastor and told him of the issues. That was not too much of a help, but did help me feel like I had done something and said something.

I hope that it was a one time thing for you and it stops.

 

[ballettmaus]

She's a very sweet person and for some reason the thought "hey...she might be Christian" went through my head. But when she looked inside, she said, "what the hell"? I shushed her as I feared what might happen to her for using that kind of language considering what she was holding...

Christians can still be as annoyed by that kind of mail as non-believers. I know I would be.

I get approximiately 40 items of junk mail every week. I have yet to consider it invasive or personal, even when it directly conflicts with my personal beliefs.

It's MAIL, for god's sake (pun intended).

Junk mail gets send with the goal of selling the recipient something. This mail Peter got, gets send out with the goal of forcing someone else's believes on the recipient. And that's why I find it a lot more personal and invasive.

 

[AxelAnnie]

I would not take it personally. You are on a list. I suspect everyone gets stuff....just on the off chance it sticks.

My last name used to be Hernand. Someone years ago dropped the "es" I can't tell you how much mail I used to get in Spanish. A friend of mine was really smart years ago, and set up a g-mail account for all her on line purchases. She is on a lot fewer lists that way.

 

[rjblue]

My younger sister went to an evangelical church camp with her best friend when she was ten. Apparently that was enough for their local church to put on a full press to save her soul. She was barraged with calls and mail and attempted visits. She began to have extreme night terrors where she ran screaming through the house.

It took my 6'4" father visiting the pastor and threatening violence to make them stop.

 

[agalisgv]

Osiris was resurrected.

By his wife/sister putting his dispersed body parts together and using magical incantations. None of it had to do with benefiting mankind which is what you previously asserted.

Prometheus was tortured for giving fire to mankind.

Depends on the version:

Ancient myths and legends relate at least four versions of the narratives describing Prometheus...Hesiod presents Prometheus as subsequently being a lowly challenger to Zeus's omnipotence.

The consistent theme of Prometheus is challenging the authority/power of Zeus--not necessarily trying to help mankind. Prometheus simply uses humanity to counter Zeus' omnipotence.

that doesn't mean all elements of the Jesus story were new or unique.

Of course not. But the claim you made earlier was that there were numerous examples in antiquity of mythological figures dying on behalf of humanity, and none of the examples you provided illustrate that theme. Further, you were agreeing with MacMadame's point when she challenged Ehrman's statement:

We do not have accounts of others who were born to virgin mothers and who died as an atonement for sin and then were raised from the dead (despite what the sensationalists claim ad nauseum in their propagandized versions).

Ehrman is specifically referencing this claim commonly made by mythicists:

This unusually vociferous group of nay-sayers maintains that Jesus is a myth invented for nefarious (or altruistic) purposes by the early Christians who modeled their savior along the lines of pagan divine men who, it is alleged, were also born of a virgin on Dec. 25, who also did miracles, who also died as an atonement for sin and were then raised from the dead.

And Ehrman is saying this claim by mythicists is false because there is no such figure in antiquity who was portrayed as such. The examples you provided only highlight how different those mythological motifs are from the narratives surrounding Jesus.

For @maatTheViking , that was my point--Norse mythology wouldn't know about Jesus or vice versa, so saying one drew upon the other is simply historically inaccurate. And ITA that stories of Odin aren't centered around helping humanity as earlier asserted. I have no idea why Odin was mentioned in the first place. You do bring up an interesting point, though, that after the fact, many myths were overlayed with Christian imagery (Horus is a good example of this) to put salient mythological narratives in consonance with Christianity. But that's a later interpretive move rather than a original thematic feature of ancient mythologies.

 

[PRlady]

Hey Peter, if you ever do find out who sent you that stuff, send him or her this article back. They probably won't understand it, I got lost at the algorithms, but as a way of pointing out that the Bible was a series of human documents, it's pretty good.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/12/w...prod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share

 

[Angelskates]

Junk mail gets send with the goal of selling the recipient something. This mail Peter got, gets send out with the goal of forcing someone else's believes on the recipient. And that's why I find it a lot more personal and invasive.

Or you could look at it as the sender was merely trying to share information. Junk mail has in intention of making something enticing enough for you to buy it. This mail wanted to make church/religion enticing enough to get Peter to go and investigate further. There is very little difference.

Peter wasn't being forced to do anything, he wasn't even forced to open the envelope, let alone read it, and keep it.

It surprises me that many in this thread see this mail as trying to force religion on Peter. It's a piece of paper. There is nothing threatening on it. It can be thrown in the bin without anything bad happening. I see this as an ineffective way of spreading the Word just because it can be so easily thrown in the bin and forgotten.

@PeterG - I noticed you didn't answer my questions about whether you would be offended if the contents of the envelope was an invitation to an interfaith BBQ, or a picnic for atheists? Or even information about something else?

 

[Tinami Amori]

I would not take it personally.

But because it is not "personal" it is even worst! One thing is when your friend is telling you "change something in your life" and another thing is when a stranger does it...

Look at it this way: a group of people, who do not know you, never met you, to whom you do not present any physical or financial danger nor threaten them in any shape or form, WANT to influence your way of living not only “in public” but “in private”, to go inside your life and inside your head and change it for no practical purpose or any direct consequence to them!!! ???

I understand and respect when unfamiliar people say “please don’t smoke, the fumes bother me”. They have the right! But it is different when people who do not know you say “don’t smoke it’s bad for you”…. They don’t have that right! It’s understandable and acceptable if a friend says it, but not a stranger!

Why can’t people just mind their own business, and enjoy the fact that THEY have the freedom to practice what they want to practice in their territory.

America was created and advertises itself to immigrants as a place of “personal freedoms”. It means “you have freedom to practice yours-whatever”, it does not mean “you have freedom to bother others so they practice the same thing you do”.

If I ever had any legislative power, I would completely change US Postal Service practices, and prevent sending unsolicited mail to private addresses/residences. With today’s technology it is possible to do effectively.

Each address is assigned a bar code, or some kind of code, which residents can give to the commercial entities, private individuals, and organizations they chose to deal with. That code is placed on all correspondence packaging/envelopes to that address, and mail-person does not put anything in one’s box that does not have the code (which is scanned. They do it anyway with a lot of materials which have bar codes for delivery tracking).

If one wants to sign up for a catalogue, or to join an organization, one gives them the code…. No code – no delivery.

US Postal service also establishes “vending machine style” distribution kiosks in supermarkets, post-offices, public locations, where for the same amount as a stamp, a company or an organization can place their brochures, adverts, flyers, etc. Like in hotel lobbies – there is a stand with brochures for local tourist attractions. Those who are interested will stop and look.

I don’t think people and companies have a right to place THEIR STUFF in my private territory! Outside of it, yes. Inside NO! It's ridiculous! "They" are going through all this trouble, to figure out "what you want to buy", "what you may need", "who are you", "what you life is like"..... I don't want anyone "being concerned with me" behind my doors. If i step out to the outside world, i am prepared to see and acknowledge "other people". If i go to a party, i expect to communicate. If i am in my home i have the right to be "closed off to society" and not have anyone "enter" in any shape or form. And this unsolicited mail breaks that "bubble" of privacy.

 

[PRlady]

By his wife/sister putting his dispersed body parts together and using magical incantations. None of it had to do with benefiting mankind which is what you previously asserted. Depends on the version: The consistent theme of Prometheus is challenging the authority/power of Zeus--not necessarily trying to help mankind. Prometheus simply uses humanity to counter Zeus' omnipotence.

Of course not. But the claim you made earlier was that there were numerous examples in antiquity of mythological figures dying on behalf of humanity, and none of the examples you provided illustrate that theme. Further, you were agreeing with MacMadame's point when she challenged Ehrman's statement: Ehrman is specifically referencing this claim commonly made by mythicists: And Ehrman is saying this claim by mythicists is false because there is no such figure in antiquity who was portrayed as such. The examples you provided only highlight how different those mythological motifs are from the narratives surrounding Jesus.

For @maatTheViking , that was my point--Norse mythology wouldn't know about Jesus or vice versa, so saying one drew upon the other is simply historically inaccurate. And ITA that stories of Odin aren't centered around helping humanity as earlier asserted. I have no idea why Odin was mentioned in the first place. You do bring up an interesting point, though, that after the fact, many myths were overlayed with Christian imagery (Horus is a good example of this) to put salient mythological narratives in consonance with Christianity. But that's a later interpretive move rather than a original thematic feature of ancient mythologies.

My understanding is that Ehrman refers to mythicists as those who deny Jesus existed, which I don't do and neither did Macmadam. But pointing out that elements of the Jesus story, including resurrection and suffering or sacrificing for humanity appear in other cultures' myths, doesn't deny Jesus' existence. It only makes the obvious point that the story was syncretic in terms of its cultural influences (while remaining primarily Judeo-Hellenic) - a noncontroversial point.

 

[agalisgv]

My understanding is that Ehrman refers to mythicists as those who deny Jesus existed, which I don't do and neither did Macmadam.

That's correct about mythicists, but MacMadame in the past has argued against the existence of Jesus. I know you've never argued that, but others here have, and I do take issue with that as it is a very anti-intellectual impulse IMO (and you know how much I hate that )

Where I might disagree with you a tad (and probably only a tad) is the degree to which Jesus narratives represent innovation, and to what degree they drew upon other tropes. I think there's a fair amount of innovation where you might see it otherwise. But I tend to see a fair amount of innovation in most religious traditions that sustain over a period of time because that is what makes them distinctive.

 

[twinsissv]

........and here I am thinking that The Watchtower is just a really cool Jimi Hendrix song. Heck, if it wasn't for Indiana Jones I wouldn't know what the Ark of the Covenant was. Clearly, my folks were not churchgoers.

 

[Vagabond]

Just wondering if people had thoughts on this. I'm not really vocal about being an atheist, or gay for that matter. But if the subject comes up, I will be honest. I just find this anonymous mail to be both weird and rather upsetting.

You have a right to your own feelings, PeterG.

It escapes me why people in this thread are telling you otherwise.

 

[jeffisjeff]

Well, I was in the right genre: Sci-Fi.

Not to be an SG1 geek or anything, but you were pretty close - Osiris was a goa'uld, Prometheus was space ship.

Back on-topic , I always wondered (but knew the answer) why the SG1 writers never made Jesus a goa'uld, Ancient, Ori or Asgard. Every other god and wizard seemed to be one.

 

[PeterG]

Were you thinking the librarian might be the sender?

Nope. I get along with the staff really well there, so I thought I'd show her my "gift" and see what she thought. Glad her response gave me a chuckle.

@PeterG - I noticed you didn't answer my questions about whether you would be offended if the contents of the envelope was an invitation to an interfaith BBQ, or a picnic for atheists? Or even information about something else?

I was kind of about your earlier comment. I'm sure I never said I was offended about anything. Just creeped out. More creeped out than I would have otherwise considering I had ants crawling all over my just minutes before opening that letter.

As for this question, if a flyer went out to everyone on a sheet of paper, that would be weird (the examples you gave), but would have unsettled me rather than freaked me out. If those things you mention were put inside an enveloped which had my name and address plus no return address...and I was the only one in the building who got one, that would freak me out to a certain extent. Not as much as what I received as an invitation to an event at least has a bit of warmth to it. Random pamphlets which are not specifically associated with a local church and one of their events is...freaky.

You have a right to your own feelings, PeterG.

It escapes me why people in this thread are telling you otherwise.

I'm fine with what people have shared in this thread. I did ask for thoughts, so I've gotten them! The ones that kind of told me to settle down were good in a way as I was freaked out about being over-run by insects! At least they weren't locusts!