2018 USFS Governing Council meeting & board initiatives (proposed changes to the current U.S. Nationals qualifying pipeline & more)

[MacMadame]

A < is 2.75, not 2.5

 

[mag]

A < is 2.75, not 2.5

No it isn’t. A < is anywhere from just under 2.5 to just over 2.75. 2.75 and over is considered fully rotated. That means if you think of it like a clock face with noon being the full 360 degrees, 11.31am would get a < and 11:45am would get full value. That is why it is crazy.

 

[Dobre]

Probably more like they're pushing the boys to go for it as soon as they're halfway ready (the 3A bonus applies in novice as well), but hey, girls are welcome to try too.

I think the junior girls will need it. And probably then some.

 

[Sylvia]

Bumping this thread back up since the topic of how the U.S. qualifying system will change next season and the implementation of minimum technical scores has come up in the U.S. Ladies thread.

From USFS' 2017-18 COMBINED REPORT OF ACTION: http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/2017-18 Combined Report of Action.pdf

Page 75:

456. SECTION 5: A Minimum Technical Score for Senior Competitors at the U.S. Championships
Add a new rule, 2512, to establish a minimum technical score, as described below. See the end of the entire proposal for rule change language.
a) Senior competitors who qualify for the U.S. Figure Skating Championships, through their top-four placement at the Sectional Singles Final or top 12 placement at the U.S. Pairs Final or U.S. Dance Final must also meet a minimum technical score, achieved at: any official NQS event, regional/sectional challenge, sectional/U.S. final event, or ISU competition within the same season.
b) The minimum technical score is recommended by the appropriate discipline committee and Competitions Committee and approved by the Board of Directors annually.

COMPETITIONS TASK FORCE (ITEM 456) begins on page 68.

Rule section 2500 replaces the current rule section 2500 by removing juvenile through novice, breaking qualification down by event and adding the U.S. Pairs Final and U.S. Dance Final as qualifying events. Rule 2512 is a new rule addressing a minimum technical score.

2500 Qualifying for the U.S. Figure Skating Championships

2510 Singles competitors qualify for the following U.S. Figure Skating Championships events by:
A. Junior: Placing in the top 4 in junior at their respective Sectional Singles Final;
B. Junior: Placing in the top 2 in novice at their respective Sectional Singles Final;
C. Junior: Being awarded a bye per rules 2514-2519;
D. Senior: Placing in the top 4 in senior at their respective Sectional Singles Final;
E. Senior: Being awarded at bye, per rules 2514-2519.

2511 Pairs and dance competitors qualify for the following U.S. Figure Skating Championships events by:
A. Junior: Placing in the top 12 in junior at the U.S. Pairs Final or U.S. Dance Final;
B. Junior: Being awarded a bye per rules 2514-2519;
C. Senior: Placing in the top 12 in senior at the U.S. Pairs Final or U.S. Dance Final;
D. Senior: Being awarded a bye, per rules 2514-2519.

2512 Minimum Technical Score: Competitors who qualify for the U.S. Figure Skating Championships,through 2510 (D) or 2511 (C) must also have met a minimum technical score (TES) at one of the following competitions, in the same season: Any National Qualifying Series event, the Regional Singles Challenge or Sectional Singles Final, or any ISU competition.
A. The minimum technical score will be determined annually. It is recommended by the appropriate discipline committee and must be approved by the Board of Directors by Sept. 1.

 

[Sylvia]

From USFS' 2020 Nationals announcement press release on 11/27/18:

The inaugural "National High Performance Developmental Team Camp for juvenile, intermediate and novice athletes will be held in nearby Morrisville, North Carolina, Jan. 26–29, 2020" immediately following 2020 Nationals (Senior/Junior) in Greensboro.

 

[concorde]

From USFS' 2020 Nationals announcement press release on 11/27/18:

The inaugural "National High Performance Developmental Team Camp for juvenile, intermediate and novice athletes will be held in nearby Morrisville, North Carolina, Jan. 26–29, 2020" immediately following 2020 Nationals (Senior/Junior) in Greensboro.

Instead of going to Nationals, the top 4 qualifiers (Juv, Intermediate, and Novice) at each Section will go to this camp. Those skaters will also get a Team USA jacket.

 

[Sylvia]

I assume they will be "National High Performance Developmental Team Camp" (or NHPDTC for short ) jackets. "Team USA" jackets are reserved for the skaters who are selected by USFS to compete internationally.

 

[concorde]

I assume they will be "National High Performance Developmental Team Camp" (or NHPDTC for short ) jackets. "Team USA" jackets are reserved for the skaters who are selected by USFS to compete internationally.

I remember them saying that those selected "will get a jacket" but no one ever clarified exactly what type.
I always love hearing the skaters tell stories of when they got their "first" jacket. For all it is a HUGE milestone event.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

Just re-iterating what I said in the other thread here for convo's sake:

I hate to be That Person, but I'm glad Nationals is getting rid of the lower levels. I'm perfectly happy with the retooling of the competition structure. Not that I don't love watching the kiddos, but I can't imagine that it was profitable for USFS and added another layer of logistics. And with all the new SafeSport restrictions re: changing rooms and whatnot, may be more challenging to implement successfully.

 

[vesperholly]

I will miss Novice at Nationals. I think it's a shame they're making them compete with Junior instead of having their own championship.

The elimination of Juv/Int is fine by me.

 

[her grace]

According to USFS, one of the reasons they got rid of Nationals at the lower levels was due to cost. They were quoting $5-10k. To clarify, that is what the parents were reporting they had spent.

But how is it going to save parents any money to switch from paying for travel, hotel, coaches' lost fees, etc. to go to a national competition v. paying for travel, hotel, coaches' lost fees to go to a high performance camp? Particularly for the top 6 novice singles that do skate up as junior at nationals, they'll probably end up paying more because they have to stay an extra four days after the national competition ends to attend the camp.

 

[concorde]

I attended a parent session about a year ago where all of this was explained -for most of us, this was the first we were hearing about the proposed changes and the changes had yet to be approved.

We were given the impression was that USFS would pay the expenses associated with the "top 4" Sectional lower level skaters to attend Nationals and stay for the developmental camp. We were getting alot of information thrown at us and none of us questioned what USFS really meant and at that time, I'm not sure if they knew.

But without Nationals, young skaters can quit practicing their programs right after Sectionals (November) and use that time to get their programs up and running for the next year. That is a huge bonus for younger skaters since many will have "summer" competitions as early as April.

 

[Sylvia]

Bumping up this thread again since I've been seeing questions regarding the new U.S. qualifying structure for 2019-20 and came across this page on USFS' website that summarizes the upcoming changes: https://www.usfigureskating.org/story?id=84035

The new competitive pipeline features the following:

• NEW! National Qualifying Series
• New names for qualifying competitions
• Additional athletes qualifying for the sectional singles challenge
• Earlier timeline for pairs and dance teams and another opportunity for national competition
• National High-Performance Development Team Camp for juvenile, intermediate and novice athletes (ETA: scheduled to take place in Morrisville, North Carolina, January 26–29, 2020)

 

[concorde]

Bumping this to see if anyone has any more information.

According the the USFS website, the list of competitions was to be released 3/1. Then in mid Febuuary, the date was pushed back to 3/9. Now no date is listed.

The USFS website initially listed that skaters had to sign up for the series by mid April. Now no date is listed.

 

[just wondering]

Bumping this to see if anyone has any more information.

According the the USFS website, the list of competitions was to be released 3/1. Then in mid Febuuary, the date was pushed back to 3/9. Now no date is listed.

The USFS website initially listed that skaters had to sign up for the series by mid April. Now no date is listed.

I may be misunderstanding your question, but I think the list of competitions is up. See the links on the main page under this header - "2019-20 National Qualifying Series Competitions"
NQS Singles Competitions
NQS Pairs Competitions
NQS Dance Competitions

 

[Debbie S]

One of the requirements of being in the NQS was to have final rounds that included both SP and FS. Some comps looked into it and decided not to, at least not for this year. And FYI, those comps in NQS must use the USFS EMS (not Entryeeze) for entry. So that means that those comps likely won't have competitor/group lists available prior to the event.

 

[concorde]

I may be misunderstanding your question, but I think the list of competitions is up. See the links on the main page under this header - "2019-20 National Qualifying Series Competitions"
NQS Singles Competitions
NQS Pairs Competitions
NQS Dance Competitions

Thank you! I had looked yesterday afternoon and it was not there. Thank you again!

 

[Willin]

One of the requirements of being in the NQS was to have final rounds that included both SP and FS. Some comps looked into it and decided not to, at least not for this year. And FYI, those comps in NQS must use the USFS EMS (not Entryeeze) for entry. So that means that those comps likely won't have competitor/group lists available prior to the event.

Seems like a dumb choice. A lot of competitions and skaters could be able to do this in the future, but on such short notice? A lot of skaters who compete this time of year are at lower levels. For the levels that require SPs and FSs I usually only see the skaters do one of the two at a competition until summer rolls around. For skaters not aiming for fall qualifying season and the next year's nationals I'm sure they could make it work - but with only a month or two to make two programs and not even knowing if they're able to attend the competitions involved?

 

[Debbie S]

For skaters not aiming for fall qualifying season and the next year's nationals I'm sure they could make it work - but with only a month or two to make two programs and not even knowing if they're able to attend the competitions involved?

If they can't attend any of the comps, they wouldn't enter them. To be in the NQS, comps had to take place after June 1, so early-season comps aren't eligible. And skaters are not required to enter the NQS in order to enter the comp - if they only want to compete FS b/c they're not planning on going to Regionals, fine. And even if they plan to go to Regionals, they are not required to register for NQS, only if they want their score to make them eligible to receive a bye if their score ranks high enough.

The NQS is really just an extra option - it's to provide a way for skaters who do an amazing job during the summer to be able to go straight to Sectionals. Each year, there are always skaters whose summer comp scores kill everyone else's and then they go to Regionals and have a bad skate, or maybe they end up in a tough QR with all the other top skaters in their region and just miss the FR. This is to make sure that the best skaters in each section make it to Sectionals, plus give more opportunities for skaters who don't get a bye to make it (since the absence of the byed skaters opens up additional spots).

Skaters who plan to compete at Regionals probably already have their SP and FS together, and most definitely by June 1.

 

[Willin]

@Debbie S Wasn't it originally announced as a late spring thing? Or am I thinking of something else?

 

[Debbie S]

@Debbie S Wasn't it originally announced as a late spring thing? Or am I thinking of something else?

You may be thinking of something else. The NQS (and provision for skaters to earn a bye through Regionals) was always set to occur during summer comps. The exact dates and requirements were left to a committee but the basics were laid out at GC last year.

 

[Willin]

@Debbie S Yeah I was thinking of something else

 

[concorde]

@Debbie S Yeah I was thinking of something else

You were thinking of the excel series which is for the nom-qualifying skaters. Since this is now a championship for those skaters not exactly sure what to call them. Maybe excel skaters but not sure if people would know what that means.

 

[natsulian]

I like the NQS and North American Challenge. I wish Novice was kept at Nationals since it’ll make Juniors quite congested. Most of the Intermediate girls will skip Novice and go straight to Juniors while the Novice girls will no longer sandbag and will attempt to go to Juniors as well. The incentive in staying at Novice is hopefully being in the Top 2 in a not so crowded field and having the opportunity compete as a Junior. Also, the bonuses should apply to spins and steps as well (+1 for Level 4 spins and steps). Additionally, under-rotated, but landed jumps should receive half the bonus a fully rotated and landed jump receives. Since the North American Challenge is encompassing of Canada, it’ll be exciting to watch the athletes compete and gives our non top Novices a chance to compete “internationally”. All in all, I think the proposals are a step in the right direction.

My Wishes:
- Halving the bonuses for under-rotated jumps
- Bonuses for Level 4 steps and spins
- 22 competitors minimum for Singles since the lower levels are now gone (10 from NQS and 12 from Sectionals)
- Keep Novices at Nationals
- National Ranking based on domestic competitions and points similar to the WR/WS at the international level
- Test skates for every level
- More international assignments spread out between the 1-4 winners at Nationals/Sectionals (for Novices)
- 3 levels to Junior Nationals: Jumps portion where they earn points by attempting all their triple/quad jumps (judged normally), then the Short, Long, and the total score reflects all three parts

 

[hoptoad]

I agree it will be messy for awhile since the incentives have now changed. But it should even out over time as skaters know what system to plan for.

- 3 levels to Junior Nationals: Jumps portion where they earn points by attempting all their triple/quad jumps (judged normally), then the Short, Long, and the total score reflects all three parts

This sounds interesting. It may be a good way to encourage the harder jumps AND good skating skills in a program.

 

[natsulian]

I agree it will be messy for awhile since the incentives have now changed. But it should even out over time as skaters know what system to plan for.


This sounds interesting. It may be a good way to encourage the harder jumps AND good skating skills in a program.

A jumps portion will motivate juniors to establish solid triples and keep intermediate and novice level girls/boys from moving up until their jumps are adequate. Basically, everyone will jump the five basic triples plus a 2A which will be judged normally. However, someone can replace a 2A with a 3A or a 3T with a 4T and the bonuses will be applied. Moreover, if one only has their triples up to a 3F and no 3Lz, they don’t receive any deductions, but they will be 5-7 points behind a person who does have their 3Lz and lands it cleanly with positive GOE. Of course, they can then make up for the deficit in the Short and Free programs. The total score would be Jumps portion+Short+Free. Also, they really should add bonuses to spins and steps (+1 for Level 4’s).

 

[gkelly]

A jumps portion will motivate juniors to establish solid triples and keep intermediate and novice level girls/boys from moving up until their jumps are adequate.

Is the intention to keep Junior-level competitions at all nonqualifying and regional competitions elite-only and to push non-elite mid- and older teen skaters out of standard track competition entirely? Or is the point to be able to identify the current elite and near-elite younger teens and preteens who show potential to soon represent the US successfully at junior internationals?

Keep in mind that there are many teen skaters across the US who have all their double jumps and have had for years, might be trying double axels or one or more triples, but are not competitive to qualify for for Nationals and are not likely to get those harder jumps at all. But they do want to pass the tests and they do want to compete at Regionals and at standard-track nonqualifying competitions (and in the new National Qualifying Series), and may hope at least to qualify for Sectionals if they have a good day.

Most junior ladies at Regionals do not attempt triples or do not succeed if they try. (The same is true for senior ladies, for that matter, although the senior SP rules require them to try.)

There have also, over the years, been strong skaters who have qualified for Nationals at Junior level with fewer than 5 different triples in their repertoire, in some cases medaling or even winning, but with lesser success at Senior level if they weren't able to add those triples as they moved up.

That being the case, would you want to apply this jumps competition only at Nationals or maybe also Sectionals, or do you want it to be part of every combined Junior event at every nonqualifying competition that offers combined events?

Also, would this competition phase require all juniors to attempt at least all triple jumps even if they can't come close to rotating them? Remember, the junior short program rules set by the ISU do not require any triples at all from junior ladies and only one in the combination for junior men -- the solo jump always has the option to be double or triple.

Basically, everyone will jump the five basic triples plus a 2A which will be judged normally. . . . Moreover, if one only has their triples up to a 3F and no 3Lz, they don’t receive any deductions, but they will be 5-7 points behind a person who does have their 3Lz and lands it cleanly with positive GOE.

If this proposal is to be used at Regionals, or even at Sectionals, would the idea be that skaters who have few or no triples would be entered in this event phase of the event and be required to do jumps they are not capable of attempting credibly? So either we'd see a lot of scary attempts or the skater may as well just stand still and do nothing for the whole length of their time on the ice?

Or would the idea be that everyone has to attempt a jump from all six basic takeoffs, perhaps with at least 2 revolutions, and build up points that way? The skaters who can only do doubles will be far behind those who can do all the triples, enough that they won't be able to catch up and qualify for Sectionals or Nationals on the strength of non-jump skills in the SP and FS. But at least it would be a meaningful competition phase for all the non-triple-jumpers to compete against each other for placements in the lower part of the field, and sometimes a skater with strong doubles having a good day might end up ahead of a triple-jumper having a bad day.

If the idea is simply to determine which of the national-level junior skaters have the best case to be promoted for international assignments, then it would make sense for this to be a U.S. Nationals-only competition phase. Or even not part of the standard competition at all (stick to ISU rules) but a separate required event for all juniors either at Nationals or invited to some kind of selection camp.

 

[natsulian]

This would be at the National level only or a selection camp. Currently, most of the juniors who made it to Nationals have all five triples and a 2A. With the new bonuses in place, a lot of the younger girls/boys are attempting triples cleanly up to 3S/3Lo and sometimes 3F/3Lz at the intermediate level, so by the time the reach the junior level, they should already have all their triples. Not only that, most of the novices moving up to the junior level have all of their triples, maybe just not as consistent. In fact, the ladies novice gold medalist would have won bronze if she had competed as a junior. If the current pool of novice to junior skaters are already attempting these jumps and pushing the boundaries, why not have it be apart of the competition? Plus, the jumps portion will invigorate those who do not have their 3Lz to train one and have it be consistent. Plus, it’ll ensure that coaches start teaching the harder elements early on.

Of the 24 competitors (12 male and 12 female) at the junior level at Nationals this year, only 2 did not have a 3Lz. Years prior, we rarely saw 3Lz at the novice level, but now, nearly half of the kids are landing a 3Lz with positive GOE.

It’s just a suggestion, and I’m not sure about its long term impacts, but it is another method of keeping up with the jumping beans of Japan and Russia. I think Russia does something like this, but at the novice level.

 

[Sylvia]

In fact, the ladies novice gold medalist would have won bronze if she had competed as a junior.

Pet peeve of mine : You really can't compare scores/placements across different levels. The Novice ladies' champ didn't have to do the required SP solo jump in Junior (double or triple flip this season; she included 2F in her 3-jump combo in her Novice FS and attempted the other 4 triples through Lutz) because Novices are allowed to choose which two SP jumps they want to include, in addition to the 2A.

 

[natsulian]

Pet peeve of mine : You really can't compare scores/placements across different levels. The Novice ladies' champ didn't have to do the required SP solo jump in Junior (double or triple flip this season; she included 2F in her 3-jump combo in her Novice FS and attempted the other 4 triples through Lutz) because Novices are allowed to choose which two SP jumps they want to include, in addition to the 2A.

Didn't she do a Junior program in international competition though that garnered nearly 160? If she did the same Junior program, she could've placed silver or bronze. Correct me if I'm wrong... (I might be since I don't know if she attempted a 3F or not in that international competition).