Russian Figure Skater tests positive for drugs - delays ceremony for team medals

[Allskate]

Why? A child who has been exploited by the so-called responsible adults in her life should have to publicly discuss the details of the exploitation? I can’t see any reason that’s a reasonable thing to ask.

I disagree. Again, I don't think that she should be peppered by journalists. But, I do think she should be asked about it in a respectful way and that her answers should be public. They can and should find someone who will question her appropriately. This is not a situation of a private citizen who is a young child being abused in a situation that affects nobody else. It is not a situation involving extremely sensitive issues such as sexual abuse, and she is 15, not 5. IMO, if the specifics of this case, including what she says happened to her, aren't made public, then I think it will be easier to obscure what happened and sweep it under the rug and people will have even less confidence in clean sport and the safety of athletes. (Not just Alyssa's dad but many more.) IMO, this adversely affects not just the athletes who are clean and not just the sport of figure skating and the Olympics. It affects those being doped, and especially young people being doped. One of the reasons I find it so horrible that Valieva's age allowed her to compete is that it implicitly sanctions and perhaps incentivizes exploiting and doping other young athletes. I think all of the facts, including what Valieva says happened, must be disclosed publicly.

Again, I am not without sympathy for Valieva. But, I think the impact of her doping on others is very important.

 

[once_upon]

I would be sympathetic to a 16 year old too. We need to figure out what happened.

However as a 15 yr 10 mo 2 day skater, she is being given a pass to skate in the biggest stage - Olympics. On the premise that she isn't mature enough to know what is being put into her body.

I'm sorry, but if you are suspended pending outcome of investigation when you are 16, it's bogus to say she can't be responsible at age 15 yr, 10 mo.

 

[becca]

However as a 15 yr 10 mo 2 day skater, she is being given a pass to skate in the biggest stage - Olympics. On the premise that she isn't mature enough to know what is being put into her body.

I'm sorry, but if you are suspended pending outcome of investigation when you are 16, it's bogus to say she can't be responsible at age 15 yr, 10 mo.

I think some rules need to change if your not old enough to be responsible shouldn’t be competiting but I see to given some people more time to prove their cases

I am all for no 15 year olds at the Olympics

 

[MacMadame]

If anyone think Kamila will be stripped of any medal after Olympics, you haven't been watching figure skating long enough. Whether the IOC will ever issue medals or not, I don't know, but the ISU will never sanction her or Russia.

They'll use this to get the age limit proposal passed like they used the Pairs scandal to get IJS passed.

In terms of medals, the IOC is in charge of that. And right now they are playing hardball. If RUSADA decides on a 1 month suspension, I think they will challenge it.

 

[once_upon]

I think some rules need to change if your not old enough to be responsible shouldn’t be competiting but I see to given some people more time to prove their cases

I am all for no 15 year olds at the Olympics

So the Japanese Women need to give up their dreams while an investigation occurs? So all those precious spots at next year's Worlds or Olympics need to be on hold while this investigation occurs?

The rules are clear. No banned substances. No one else has been given special consideration (if I'm wrong please point out my error).

Really - age, in the case of banned substances, is not relevant.

 

[Trillian]

I think all of the facts, including what Valieva says happened, must be disclosed publicly.

Again, I am not without sympathy for Valieva. But, I think the impact of her doping on others is very important.

I agree with that. I just don’t agree with those saying that she should be required to attend a press conference. And in general, whatever testimony she does give should happen privately and the necessary details can be made public afterwards. I just don’t see the need for her to do any literal public speaking about this issue, unless she chooses to do that at some point. But I think we’re basically on the same page that transparency in the investigation will be important.

However as a 15 yr 10 mo 2 day skater, she is being given a pass to skate in the biggest stage - Olympics. On the premise that she isn't mature enough to know what is being put into her body.

It seems like many of the people who are sympathetic to her also think she shouldn’t be competing, though.

 

[becca]

So the Japanese Women need to give up their dreams while an investigation occurs? So all those precious spots at next year's Worlds or Olympics need to be on hold while this investigation occurs?

The rules are clear. No banned substances. No one else has been given special consideration (if I'm wrong please point out my error).

Really - age, in the case of banned substances, is not relevant.

I never said I thought that Kamila should skate.

This affects someone like Liza far more if this had come out sooner she would be at the Olympics.

Or her other Russian teammates who could have won team gold without her.

Who says Russia will send Kamila to worlds?

Do I think team gold should be stripped right now no there is going to have to be an investigation.

 

[overedge]

If Valieva didn't even know that she had been doped, she might not be able to answer a lot of questions about it. I fully agree that she should be responsible for what goes into her body, but I can also envision that she could be given something like, let's say, a smoothie, and be told that it has carrots, grapes, celery, whatever.....and additional ingredients that she wasn't told about.

And given the cult-like culture in Camp Eteri, I don't think that she's going to start publicly condemning her coach and her team at a press conference. I imagine that the world where she felt pretty secure is now disintegrating right before her eyes, and she might feel that she doesn't know who or what she can trust or believe.

 

[Allskate]

It seems like many of the people who are sympathetic to her also think she shouldn’t be competing, though.

And that includes me. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. I have a great deal of sympathy for the East German athletes who were doped without their knowledge, but I absolutely believe that they should be stripped of their medals. There needs to be a fair playing field. Sympathy should extend to more than Valieva.

And, again, being given an exemption creates an even greater incentive for other young athletes to be doped and exploited.

 

[Trillian]

And, again, being given an exemption creates an even greater incentive for other young athletes to be doped and exploited.

Right. The faultiest part of the CAS reasoning is the idea that “irreparable harm” might occur if she couldn’t compete, when in fact competing is the thing that has already harmed her, and could easily lead to other kids being harmed in the future. There’s no outcome that is going to make this okay for Valieva, but there is a chance for the governing bodies to do a better job of protecting kids in the future.

 

[overedge]

There’s no outcome that is going to make this okay for Valieva, but there is a chance for the governing bodies to do a better job of protecting kids in the future.

And the focus shouldn't just be on the kids. It should be on the larger systems/processes that allow this kind of thing to happen. Having more rigorous enforcement and penalties around abusive coaching should be a priority right now too.

 

[VGThuy]

That's an argument for treating black 15 year olds better, not for treating all 15 year olds like adults.

Well those who have not been treated better will see it as more of the same. One type gets better treatment than the others and why would it take Valieva to spearhead a movement to treat minors better when it seemed “nobody” cared before. They won’t be happy about that.

 

[Tahuu]

AP sources: US skaters to get Olympic torches as medals wait:

AP sources: US skaters to get Olympic torches as medals wait

IOC president Thomas Bach has offered U.S. figure skaters Olympic torches as holdover gifts while they await a resolution of the Russian doping case preventing them from receiving their silver medals.

apnews.com

It didn't mention Team Japan. Would they get the Olympic torches too?

 

[MacMadame]

I just don’t agree with those saying that she should be required to attend a press conference.

To be honest, I don't think anyone should be required to attend a press conference. These things are organized for convenience. Why are they mandatory?

 

[Willin]

I would love to see Kamila or any other skater pull a Marshawn Lynch.

But for reals though I'm happy she's not required to go to press conferences. Every time she or her team opens their mouth about this it's a case of "open mouth, insert foot." But if she does go she should say just about nothing.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

And the Liu family has been more than forthcoming with their opinions on social media, so clearly they feel comfortable sharing.

Wait, so Valieva is not responsible for doping because we speculate that it is probably the fault of her team, so she shouldn't have to answer questions about it. But Alysa is responsible for her father's comments on social media and those comments mean she should have to answer questions about Valieva doping?

Why is Valieva the only athlete anyone is trying to protect from the consequences of Valieva doping? Why is Valieva the only one who can't be held responsible for the actions of the adults around her?

 

[Karen-W]

Wait, so Valieva is not responsible for doping because we speculate that it is probably the fault of her team, so she shouldn't have to answer questions about it. But Alysa is responsible for her father's comments on social media and those comments mean she should have to answer questions about Valieva doping?

Why is Valieva the only athlete anyone is trying to protect from the consequences of Valieva doping? Why is Valieva the only one who can't be held responsible for the actions of the adults around her?

Lol. But, Alysa is already 16, so none of this will cause her irreparable harm. Of course she needs to speak to the press and answer for her father's comments to other media outlets!

And since Valieva's mother only offered up a suggestion of how this medication might have found its way into her daughter's urine during the "confidential" hearing, and Valieva is still only 15, it would cause her irreparable harm to have to answer any media questions about what her mother might have during that hearing.

 

[Muffin]

Well those who have not been treated better will see it as more of the same. One type gets better treatment than the others and why would it take Valieva to spearhead a movement to treat minors better when it seemed “nobody” cared before. They won’t be happy about that.

You might consider that the many people who saw Dave Chappelle's routine "How Old is 15 Really?" roughly 13 years ago took it to heart and see it as a reason to be more empathetic towards others, rather than less. There is nothing noble about using something like that as an excuse to indulge one's desire to gang up on a 15-year-old out of some messed up idea of fairness.

Valieva is not spearheading any movement. Athlete/Olympian mental health and the impact public attention, pressure and criticism has on them has been a hot topic for the past several years. One might credit Naomi Osaka and Simone Biles for doing some spearheading. Or Michael Phelps for his documentary "The Weight of Gold". Or all of the gymnasts who testified about the abuse they suffered by Larry Nassar, the Karolyis, and others.

Refraining from cruelty against Valieva is the natural result of learning from the past and trying to be better.

 

[Muffin]

But Alysa is responsible for her father's comments on social media and those comments mean she should have to answer questions about Valieva doping?

Look, I saw several skaters asked about this issue, and they all just said they weren't thinking about it or didn't wish to comment. That was it. It was no big deal and it was in no way a traumatic experience for them to give those answers.

It is one hundred percent disingenuous to suggest that Valieva going before the world's press right now would be in any way a similar or comparable experience for her.

 

[DreamSkates]

This has nothing to do with whether or not to hold Valieva accountable for her doping. I hope she is held fully accountable, suspended and DQ'd - as well as her coaches and doctors and the Russian Olympic Committee.

This is being needlessly cruel to a kid by shaming, humiliating, and badgering her in front of billions of TV viewers for no purpose except vicious entertainment. Even if she weren't a kid (and I don't care how "savvy" she may or may not be, she's a kid), it's wrong. Adults who have found themselves under that type of world-wide press attention in the past have killed themselves, or spent the rest of their lives unable to recover.

Her life should not be ruined over this. She's the victim of a system much more powerful than her, and she's already suffered more than enough abuse.

I was not making statements that in any way supported public humiliation of her or her situation.

 

[KaoriFan]

If Valieva didn't even know that she had been doped, she might not be able to answer a lot of questions about it.

There's no way this is true. The athlete will always know what goes into their body because they will have some responsibility to not throw it away, puke it back out if they have anorexic or bulimic thoughts, etc. She's not a baby being fed a bottle.

Whether she has the agency to agree to such a decision, is another matter. But of course she will know.

 

[reckless]

I agree with that. I just don’t agree with those saying that she should be required to attend a press conference. And in general, whatever testimony she does give should happen privately and the necessary details can be made public afterwards. I just don’t see the need for her to do any literal public speaking about this issue, unless she chooses to do that at some point. But I think we’re basically on the same page that transparency in the investigation will be important.

It seems to me that there is an easy way for her to avoid the obligation to attend the press conference - don’t skate. She and her team have pushed for her to be able to compete at the Olympics. Doing so means she accepts the rules for medalists.

Let me add. “Protected person” is a concept in the WADA Code. It applies only to a couple of discrete rules - penalty for doping; burden of proof in challenging a positive test; and public disclosure of athlete’s name if they test positive (and gives the IOC the option to identify Valieva). “Protected person” is not part of the Olympic Charter or IOC rules. And even if it was, it was not intended as some wide-ranging rule that demands a minor be treated with kid-gloves in all aspects of a competition.

 

[Nadya]

It seems to me that there is an easy way for her to avoid the obligation to attend the press conference - don’t skate. She and her team have pushed for her to be able to compete at the Olympics. Doing so means she accepts the rules for medalists.

Let me add. “Protected person” is a concept in the WADA Code. It applies only to a couple of discrete rules - penalty for doping; burden of proof in challenging a positive test; and public disclosure of athlete’s name if they test positive (and gives the IOC the option to identify Valieva). “Protected person” is not part of the Olympic Charter or IOC rules. And even if it was, it was not intended as some wide-ranging rule that demands a minor be treated with kid-gloves in all aspects of a competition.

Apropos that, I am very curious how and why the news about what other, legal, compounds were found in her test became public. Isn't this supposed to be, you know, private sealed data? There is all kinds of stuff a pee test would show and I don't understand why they would disclose the parts of it that aren't at odds with WADA rules. What if it came back with an STD? An antiretroviral for some condition? Are we disclosing EVERYTHING about her test now?

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Look, I saw several skaters asked about this issue, and they all just said they weren't thinking about it or didn't wish to comment. That was it. It was no big deal and it was in no way a traumatic experience for them to give those answers.

It is one hundred percent disingenuous to suggest that Valieva going before the world's press right now would be in any way a similar or comparable experience for her.

And you don’t think spending their Olympics being asked about the person who is going to beat them but should be suspended Is going to sour this experience for them at all? You don’t think they might be unpleasant for their entire Olympics to be about her?

Besides, I didn’t say that Valieva should have to go to the press conference, so you are deflecting. you failed to address my question of why Alyssa has to be responsible for comments her father makes, at least according to you, and why you’re willing to apply such a double standard.

 

[VGThuy]

You might consider that the many people who saw Dave Chappelle's routine "How Old is 15 Really?" roughly 13 years ago took it to heart and see it as a reason to be more empathetic towards others, rather than less. There is nothing noble about using something like that as an excuse to indulge one's desire to gang up on a 15-year-old out of some messed up idea of fairness.

Valieva is not spearheading any movement. Athlete/Olympian mental health and the impact public attention, pressure and criticism has on them has been a hot topic for the past several years. One might credit Naomi Osaka and Simone Biles for doing some spearheading. Or Michael Phelps for his documentary "The Weight of Gold". Or all of the gymnasts who testified about the abuse they suffered by Larry Nassar, the Karolyis, and others.

Refraining from cruelty against Valieva is the natural result of learning from the past and trying to be better.

What are you talking about? I’m mainly talking about equal treatment under the law or codes. I’m all for rehabilitative reforms but I’m also for equal application of punishments and not bending rules to suit one person and ignore how others have been treated. Once the Valieva situation goes away, how many people will feel sorry for other minors who will be suspended before their investigation in finished. Not many I imagine. A special situation was created for her and I have my suspicions why.

As for Dave Chappelle, he’s not as astute as people make him out to be. I saw him live when he was a special hidden guest at the Knitting Factory in Brooklyn and though I was excited to see him at first, the amount of racism against Asians and misogyny he spouted went far beyond edgy comedy. I’m sure he raised good points about fifteen year olds but I doubt he’d be ok with letting a white skinned European girl get better treatment than others of her age.

 

[overedge]

There's no way this is true. The athlete will always know what goes into their body because they will have some responsibility to not throw it away, puke it back out if they have anorexic or bulimic thoughts, etc. She's not a baby being fed a bottle.

Whether she has the agency to agree to such a decision, is another matter. But of course she will know.

She's a young person in a training program that is very rigorous and very competitive, and run by a micro-managing coach. It's also a program that has a reputation for taking skaters in, maxing them out very quickly, and then dumping them when they are "too old", "too heavy", "too injured" etc., and there is always a supply of younger skaters coming in to take their place.

In a culture like that I have absolutely no problem believing that Valieva might have been given medication without her knowledge. I would be very surprised if she questioned what she was told to eat or what medications to take, or asked too many questions about what was in them.

 

[Muffin]

Besides, I didn’t say that Valieva should have to go to the press conference, so you are deflecting. you failed to address my question of why Alyssa has to be responsible for comments her father makes, at least according to you, and why you’re willing to apply such a double standard.

You are really working yourself into quite a big lather about nothing.

Nobody needs to be "responsible" for the comments Alyssia's father made because there was nothing wrong with his comments. I quite sympathized when he said he might not have put his daughter into this sport if he'd known it was going to be this corrupt.

I'll say this: I saw Alyssia skate and loved that she looked happy and healthy and enjoying herself on the ice. I enjoyed watching her skate, even though she was not the most technically accomplished. And I thought that she's lucky to have the family she has instead of a mother that lets her be abused and doped and then has her lie about it in court.

This situation is not fair to any of the other skaters, that's certain. I feel most sorry for the skaters who will wind up in the top 6, who are competing against skater(s) who are doping and who might literally rob them of medals, a medal ceremony, recognition of their achievements, untainted wins that aren't written in the history books with asterisks next to them, and even money.

But no, I really don't give a s*** that the skaters have to say an occasional "no comment" to the media. That's just not a big deal no matter how hard you try to make it one.

 

[Trillian]

It seems to me that there is an easy way for her to avoid the obligation to attend the press conference - don’t skate. She and her team have pushed for her to be able to compete at the Olympics. Doing so means she accepts the rules for medalists.

Would it be “easy” for her to decide not to skate at this point? How much agency does she really have? While I’m sure she could find a way to get out of skating, I doubt there’s any truly easy path for her here.

Anyway, there won’t be any medalists right away, so that’s the loophole. Any other skaters should also be allowed to skip doing press if they choose. Media obligations for athletes are a touchy subject in the first place, but it’s absolutely bizarre to suggest that anyone competing in this train wreck of an event should be forced to talk to people whose primary goal is to turn it into entertainment for strangers.

 

[MacMadame]

Would it be “easy” for her to decide not to skate at this point? How much agency does she really have? While I’m sure she could find a way to get out of skating, I doubt there’s any truly easy path for her here

I'd be extremely surprised if she doesn't want to skate. She's 15, she knows there's a timer on her career and she's the Gold medal favorite. I'm sure she's dreamed about winning an OGM for years and is not going to get one by withdrawing.

 

[Mayra]

This is all factually incorrect.

First of all, jurisdiction only means they are responsible for enforcing the WADA code. If they don't enforce it, they will be overruled by CAS and Russia will likely face additional Olympic sanctions in the future.

You mean the same agency that was responsible for enforcing WADA code and cleared the way for the provisional mandatory suspension to be lifted? A decision CAS upheld, despite the objections of WADA.

Name me another anti-doping governing body with such lax interpretation of WADA code? Forgive my mistrust.

The WADA Code can be downloaded here. Valieva violated Article 2.1 of the WADA Code, which results in immediate provisional suspension pending optional testing of a B sample. If the B sample confirms the presence of a banned substance, then the athlete undergoes a mandatory period of ineligibility of 2-4 years, depending on the circumstances. There is no exception for Protected Persons under Article 2.1. WADA said this in their statement, and it is evident if you read the Code.

WADA statement:

While WADA has not received the reasoned award, it appears that the CAS panel decided not to apply the terms of the Code, which does
not allow for specific exceptions to be made in relation to mandatory provisional suspensions for 'protected persons', including minors.

WADA's statement applied to the provisional mandatory suspension only. However, they absolutely do have provisions in their code in regards to protected people involving no significant fault and/or negligence. As I stated in my original post, Valieva's lawyers seem to be all in with regards to grandpa's cup. If they can prove that this was an accidental contaminant via grandpas spit(or otherwise) then article 10.6.1 specifically talks about what I alluded to in my post re: a shorter suspension period for Valieva as a protected person.

10.6.1 Reduction of Sanctions in Particular Circumstances for Violations of Article 2.1, 2.2 or 2.6.

10.6.1.3 Protected Persons or Recreational Athletes
Where the anti-doping rule violation not involving a Substance of Abuse is committed by a Protected Person or Recreational Athlete, and the Protected Person or Recreational Athlete can establish No Significant Fault or Negligence, then the period of Ineligibility shall be, at a minimum, a reprimand and no period of Ineligibility, and at a maximum, two (2) years Ineligibility, depending on the Protected Person or Recreational Athlete’s degree of Fault.

Even if the evidence presented is questionable, I will be very surprised if RUSADA sanctions include anything beyond a minimum suspension.

Now if WADA or the ISU or whoever chooses to disagree is up to them, but WADA code absolutey leaves the door open for RUSADA to step through.