World 2019 Men's LP

VIETgrlTerifa

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The whole sequence thing was created so it didn't get the same amount of points as a "true" combo. Since skaters were limited to the number of jump attempts and how one attempt had to be an Axel, I guess they didn't want skaters to start doing sequences to get around that limitation without a true 3/3 (or a 2A/3Toe since skaters after 2006 realized they could do that and get all their triples in). That made more sense in ladies I guess but they didn't foresee Men evolving with the quads as they did. I also never thought the second jump of a sequence being worth less than it being done solo made any sense since the beginning because you'd think doing it at the end of a sequence is actually harder than doing it solo since a huge jump did precede it. I thought a better way around that was to make the second and third jumps of a "true" combo worth more than the base value of it being done solo.
 

Sylvia

Not yet ready for club comp. season to be underway
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Sorry, can someone explain why Hanyu's 4T-3A is a sequence and not a combo -- what is between the two jumps? A half turn?
A jump becomes a combination when the landing edge of the first jump becomes the takeoff edge for the next jump.
 

Spun Silver

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11,090
The whole sequence thing was created so it didn't get the same amount of points as a "true" combo. Since skaters were limited to the number of jump attempts and how one attempt had to be an Axel, I guess they didn't want skaters to start doing sequences to get around that limitation without a true 3/3 (or a 2A/3Toe since skaters after 2006 realized they could do that and get all their triples in). That made more sense in ladies I guess but they didn't foresee Men evolving with the quads as they did. I also never thought the second jump of a sequence being worth less than it being done solo made any sense since the beginning because you'd think doing it at the end of a sequence is actually harder than doing it solo since a huge jump did precede it. I thought a better way around that was to make the second and third jumps of a "true" combo worth more than the base value of it being done solo.
I just don't see why it isn't a "true combo." I thought the difference bet combos and sequences is that the latter had a half loop/Euler or something between the two jumps.
 

Spun Silver

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A jump becomes a combination when the landing edge of the first jump becomes the takeoff edge for the next jump.
Ok. Got it. So an axel can never be the second jump in a combo?

Btw, welcome back, @Sylvia. I was about to DM you to see if you were OK! Hope all is well!
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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I just don't see why it isn't a "true combo." I thought the difference bet combos and sequences is that the latter had a half loop/Euler or something between the two jumps.
The ones with half loops/Eulers used to be considered sequences, but rightfully, they changed that as they recognized they were really 3 jump combos as skaters launched right from the exit edge of the Euler. A sequence is something more old school where we'd see a skater jump and then do some actual steps from the landing and launch into another jump. It's all part of a sequence. You don't really see many sequences these days, nor did we see them in 6.0 when 7 triples became common place. Michelle Kwan did do a 3 Loop-step-2 toe combo in Lyra Angelica after her toe injury didn't let her train the 3toe/3toe in order to allow herself to repeat the 3 Loop later on. I do remember noticing Angela Nikodinov in her LPs would some times do a Triple toe-step-double toe loop sequence or a Triple Lutz-step-double toe as opposed to a true 3/2 combo.

I guess an axel can never be the second jump in a combo unless a skater does a jump and a true half jump into it and have that half-jump be recognized as an actual jump. The way Yuzuru does it isn't jumping from the 4Toe to the 3Axel but rather turning and then launching, which may be counted more as a step in-between. Maybe if he did a 1 1/2 jump but are actual half jumps counted in COP where the jumps and landed forward (unlike the axel)? Eulers are called half-loops but they're not really half anything since the skaters do a full rotation, just land on the opposite foot.
 

Spun Silver

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11,090
The ones with half loops/Eulers used to be considered sequences, but rightfully, they changed that as they recognized they were really 3 jump combos as skaters launched right from the exit edge of the Euler. A sequence is something more old school where we'd see a skater jump and then do some actual steps from the landing and launch into another jump. It's all part of a sequence. You don't really see many sequences these days, nor did we see them in 6.0 when 7 triples became common place. Michelle Kwan did do a 3 Loop-step-2 toe combo in Lyra Angelica after her toe injury didn't let her train the 3toe/3toe in order to allow herself to repeat the 3 Loop later on. I do remember noticing Angela Nikodinov in her LPs would some times do a Triple toe-step-double toe loop sequence or a Triple Lutz-step-double toe as opposed to a true 3/2 combo.

I guess an axel can never be the second jump in a combo unless a skater does a jump and a true half jump into it and have that half-jump be recognized as an actual jump. The way Yuzuru does it isn't jumping from the 4Toe to the 3Axel but rather turning and then launching, which may be counted more as a step in-between. Maybe if he did a 1 1/2 jump but are actual half jumps counted in COP where the jumps and landed forward (unlike the axel)? Eulers are called half-loops but they're not really half anything since the skaters do a full rotation, just land on the opposite foot.
Thank you for the explanation. I have not been following rule change closely enough and didn't realize what we recently called sequences were now combos. Now I'm going to have to go find some old-school sequences because they sound cool. :)

Too bad ISU the rules committee didn't have second sight to predict Yuzu's sequence/combo because it's hard to believe they would really have wanted that penalized!
 

ldec

Active Member
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78
Obscenely late recap of group 4 because, why not?

Zhou - got the job done, did his best; I am not an expert on questionable technique but his jumps looked either underrotated or borderline underrotated in slow-mo

Shoma - well, that was not his best performance, i guess. Agree with everyone praising him on his speed and flow and he has some great skating qualities, that cannot be denied. However, he seems to suffer the same problem many multiple quad skaters face today - meh choreography, simple steps, not too many transitions in between. Otoh, is his coach always this happy?

Rizzo - not so familiar with his skating so I cannot provide much useful insight; looked nervous and seemed to be rushing at the beginning, and I think this hurt his first jumping pass; nice that the second half went better

Hanyu - Will spare the Plushenko tribute comments. I am not a huge fan of him but he is a fantastic competitor and knows how to put it all together, his ability to do that is astonishing.

Chen - yes, his jumps are very beautiful and kudos for his second world title, but everything else in his program left me kind of cold (and wtf was that music?); also, a very shallow and silly question, but why are all of his costumes so painfully bland?

Jason - when I saw his SP, I thought that was perfection - every move was so smooth and fluid, so polished. Pity about the missed opportunity here, he might never be this close to a medal (I hope to be proven wrong). Not sure the music or the program was a good choice for him here but everything else besides the jumps was a joy to watch (it takes a truly special skater to make the ugly half biellmann absolutely everyone is doing nowadays pretty). As @wickedwitch already posted, I would also rather watch the skating of Brown, Kolyada or Uno, jump mistakes included, over some of the guys that finished ahead.
 
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VIETgrlTerifa

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Is anyone else amused by the podium pics and seeing the drastic difference between Hanyu's costume and Nathan's? To me their costumes pretty much capture their personality and skating styles in a way.
 

RoseAugust

Active Member
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248
I'm a fan of Nathan's costumes. For me, it keeps my focus on the skating. Hanyu's was a distraction for me. The simpler, the better.
 

briancoogaert

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Is anyone else amused by the podium pics and seeing the drastic difference between Hanyu's costume and Nathan's? To me their costumes pretty much capture their personality and skating styles in a way.
Oh yes ! They are different in every way ! LOL But both so talented.
 

WillyElliot

Tanning one day, then wearing a winter coat today.
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662
Sad that only one Canadian guy will skate in Montreal next year. Wonder if this is the end of Messing's career now with the one spot!?
If I were he, I'd stay in one more year. I want him to go out as National Champion. I hope he thinks like-mindedly. I'd also love to see him skate to another program, after Chaplin two years in a row (or was it longer?). And the fact that Worlds is in his adopted country, I would be surprised if he retires.
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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29,249
I do think Messing should also give it another shot. I mean for one thing, who else is there? Gogolev won't be age eligible for Worlds until the 2020-2021 season and the other men aren't really that above him as far as we know. Worlds is in Montreal. The judges have shown that when he does hit, his elements get high GOE and they love his performance style which results in high PCS (because he actually performs to a character) even if fans are tired of the type of programs that he does. I think after a whole slate of skaters who are mainly trying to perform their elements without mistakes, seeing someone attempt to perform like that must be a sight for sore eyes.
 

WillyElliot

Tanning one day, then wearing a winter coat today.
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The judges have shown that when he does hit, his elements get high GOE and they love his performance style which results in high PCS (because he actually performs to a character) even if fans are tired of the type of programs that he does. I think after a whole slate of skaters who are mainly trying to perform their elements without mistakes, seeing someone attempt to perform like that must be a sight for sore eyes.
I've been watching skating for decades now. And when I watch him skate I see a fully realized skater. He doesn't "need to work on his second mark". His performance quality is at that "next" level. I've kind of blocked out Nationals, I could not believe he did not win, but I could watch him skate for hours (yes, even the Hulk program!! lol) I appreciate that he probably knew he wasn't going far in the US due to politics, and made the decision to skate for Canada. The US loss was to everyone else's gain. Has he made any comment on his continuing?
 

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