Why Does This Keep Happening: The Police Thread

Andora

Skating season ends as baseball season begins
Messages
11,465
People need to stop calling the police for "Help" when their family members are having mental breakdowns. In most places, there are other numbers to call.

I don't disagree, but 911 is the easiest thing to remember when people are in the middle of a moment with a family member in distress. If the number is front & centre/easy to grab, great-- but realistically, how often does that happen?There's a program in Ontario where a social worker & plainclothes officer can visit leading up to or after situations like this-- there would still be a 911 call for a wellness check. Not ideal.

Unfortunate that cops are expected to handle these situations alone when they clearly can't. I fail to see how folks can't understand funding militarized police less is a bad thing when it would mean funding towards people/programs that can actually help instead of... well...
 

BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
Messages
56,861
In the case of Ricardo Munoz the article linked by Susan1 says this:

Rulennis Munoz, 33, said she had called a crisis intervention organization and a police non-emergency number to get her brother involuntarily committed.

“He had an episode. He was just incoherent and acting out,” she said. “I called to find out what the procedure was to get him some help.”

Authorities did not immediately explain why an officer was dispatched, although Munoz was facing four counts of aggravated assault after he was accused last year of stabbing four people, including a 16-year-old boy in the face, following a fight.

So really, first there need to be alternatives to call that actually provide needed help and who don't themselves simply send police officers who believe they are going out to deal with dangerous criminals.

We so need to separate "public safety" from "law enforcement." And we so need to change the mindset of law enforcement agencies and officers which seems to be that they public is dangerous and that they are heading into a war zone.
 

gkelly

Well-Known Member
Messages
15,444
I don't disagree, but 911 is the easiest thing to remember when people are in the middle of a moment with a family member in distress. If the number is front & centre/easy to grab, great-- but realistically, how often does that happen?There's a program in Ontario where a social worker & plainclothes officer can visit leading up to or after situations like this-- there would still be a 911 call for a wellness check. Not ideal.

Unfortunate that cops are expected to handle these situations alone when they clearly can't. I fail to see how folks can't understand funding militarized police less is a bad thing when it would mean funding towards people/programs that can actually help instead of... well...
So really, first there need to be alternatives to call that actually provide needed help and who don't themselves simply send police officers who believe they are going out to deal with dangerous criminals.

We so need to separate "public safety" from "law enforcement." And we so need to change the mindset of law enforcement agencies and officers which seems to be that they public is dangerous and that they are heading into a war zone.

This should happen at the level of public agencies devoted to dealing with mental health emergencies.

And also at the level of dispatch.

It does make sense for people to use 911 as the number to call in the case of an emergency. If you call 911 and report a fire or a heart attack, they don't send armed police -- they send firefighters or paramedics.

So have the correctly trained and tasked first responders available for these kinds of emergencies, and have the 911 dispatchers trained to call on them first.


If you called 911 to report a hostage situation, they would send armed police including SWAT/snipers, but they would also send a hostage negotiator to take the lead.

Why can't a similar approach be used on a smaller scale for a call that someone is mentally out of control and potentially a danger to him/herself and others? It may ultimately be necessary to take them down by force, in some cases even lethal force, but this needs to be a backup resort. There also needs to be someone whose default approach is trying to establish a rapport with the individual first, not to start with an adversarial approach.

Whether the people trained to take the nonviolent approach are members of the police force or some other agency may vary depend on the size of the municipality. But they should exist and should be the first responders in these situations.
 
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BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
Messages
56,861
This should happen at the level of public agencies devoted to dealing with mental health emergencies.

And also at the level of dispatch.

It does make sense for people to use 911 as the number to call in the case of an emergency. If you call 911 and report a fire or a heart attack, they don't send armed police -- they send firefighters or paramedics.

So have the correctly trained and tasked first responders available for these kinds of emergencies, and have the 911 dispatchers trained to


If you called 911 to report a hostage situation, they would send armed police including SWAT/snipers, but they would also send a hostage negotiator to take the lead.

Why can't a similar approach be used on a smaller scale for a call that someone is mentally out of control and potentially a danger to him/herself and others? It may ultimately be necessary to take them down by force, in some cases even lethal force, but this needs to be a backup resort. There also needs to be someone whose default approach is trying to establish a rapport with the individual first, not to start with an adversarial approach.

Whether the people trained to take the nonviolent approach are members of the police force or some other agency may vary depend on the size of the municipality. But they should exist and should be the first responders in these situations.

It does seem like police are trained and/or have a mindset that doesn't allow them to go into situations with the idea of de-escalating. I think that a lot of police forces do have this training but it doesn't seem to work in a lot of the cases that become high profile. I wonder if there are many other situations where in fact there is de-escalation but we don't hear about them. The ones where there isn't de-escalation still are huge problem, but it would be interesting to see a study of this.
 

Susan1

Well-Known Member
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7,971
It does seem like police are trained and/or have a mindset that doesn't allow them to go into situations with the idea of de-escalating. I think that a lot of police forces do have this training but it doesn't seem to work in a lot of the cases that become high profile. I wonder if there are many other situations where in fact there is de-escalation but we don't hear about them. The ones where there isn't de-escalation still are huge problem, but it would be interesting to see a study of this.
I wonder if it would have happened like this 4-5 years ago.
 

skatingguy

Golden Team
Messages
7,392
Uh, if you call 911 for a medical emergency here, they do send police.

Or at least they did when I called for a squad.
In Canada, police are often dispatched for medical emergencies, particularly if access to private property is an issue - or example a locked door - as they are the only ones allowed to break down the door - paramedics would have to stand outside & wait for police if they couldn't gain easy access to a residence.
 

MacMadame

Staying at home
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37,278
There also needs to be someone whose default approach is trying to establish a rapport with the individual first, not to start with an adversarial approach.
Also, when a person in uniform, armed to the teeth with a protective vest comes onto the scene, there is immediate escalation even if they are very trained, well-meaning, etc. A person having an episode is not going to see that person as a warm and fuzzy helper, especially if they have been involuntarily committed before.

Uh, if you call 911 for a medical emergency here, they do send police.

Or at least they did when I called for a squad.
Here you get the fire department. They send out an engine with a paramedic. If it's needed, the paramedic calls for the ambulance.

The issue I think is that dispatch can't really make fine calls like this. They have three kinds of hammers. The fire department, police, and medical. They are getting many calls and the person they are talking to is not always coherent. They are trained to follow a script and to take the call quickly and send out one of their hammers. I'm not sure 911 can really work in any other way else given its nature.

I really do think we need an alternative to 911 that people can call when it's not life or death and some nuance is required. Maybe 311. (811 is taken here). 311 would be a more chill experience and the dispatchers could take more time to understand the situation because it wouldn't be life and death, you must decide what to do now!!!

When I worked dispatch at my college, it was less of a 911 kind of situation (I don't remember what number you called but I'm pretty sure it wasn't even 911) and I could make judgments because no one was about to die with an immediate response needed. 911 isn't like that. If someone is having a heart attack, you need to send someone immediately, if someone is threatening to shoot people, you need to send someone immediately. That's what 911 is for.

The problem is that there is no other number so people call 911 for all sorts of other situations. (My cat is up a tree! I need a ride to the doctor!) The end result is that either these calls tie up 911 making it harder to respond well to the serious calls or that the less serious call gets lumped in with the serious and gets an over-response. Having a number that was the same everywhere that you called for less serious issues would help with that.
 

Artistic Skaters

Drawing Figures
Messages
7,650
Several related updates today:
McClain’s death and a surge of international attention to the case during the summer’s protests of police brutality have brought increased scrutiny to the use of ketamine by paramedics on agitated people in a non-hospital setting. The Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment, which issues waivers to departments so they can use the sedative in that manner, in July reopened an investigation into McClain’s case and, in September, into the use of the substance by paramedics statewide. Paramedics have used ketamine in an EMS setting more than 900 times in the past three years, according to the department.
It's unfortunate this wasn't done a year ago considering the number of incidents.
The agreement they reached was relatively quick compared with other cases of police shootings, which have often dragged through court for years. It was sizable, with her family receiving more than double the amount paid to the relatives of Eric Garner, the New York man who died in a police chokehold in 2014. Most of all, it was unusual because of the range of reforms — a dozen in all — that the embattled city agreed to adopt in an effort to quell the protests that have left the downtown boarded up.

The policing changes would require more oversight by top commanders, and make mandatory safeguards that were common practice in the department but, for reasons that are unclear, were not followed the night of the March 13 raid.
Actions by police officers, including witness tampering, violent interrogations and falsifying evidence, account for the majority of the misconduct that lead to wrongful convictions, according to a study released Tuesday by the National Registry of Exonerations that focused on the role police and prosecutors play in false convictions in the U.S.

Researchers studied 2,400 convictions of defendants who were later found innocent over a 30-year period and found that 35% of these cases involved some type of misconduct by police. More than half – 54% – involved misconduct by police or prosecutors.
 

pollyanna

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,575
"The Council believes that Mayor Greg Fischer failed to hold leadership of the Louisville Metro Police Department (“LMPD”) properly accountable," the approved resolution stated.

Among the list of recommendations were calls to increase affordable housing, limit development in at-risk neighborhoods unless the development is black-owned and affordable, and complete a top-to-bottom review of the police department by the end of the year.
 

Jot the Dot Dot

Headstrong Buzzard
Messages
3,960
Apparently destroying an occupied vehicle and attacking a dog is "power to the people". (Disturbing Video)

I'm sure some of you will rush to defend your ilk as usual.. ;) Such an effective resistance!
Looks like justification for the attackee to charge them with vandalism and assault. And, if she had of been armed, justification for self-defense. Any other news on this incident, like outcome or participants identity?
 

once_upon

Voter
Messages
16,301
It won't play for me.
Did it get taken down? We don't know where it was posted, who posted it, what context it is, where it was? Is it part of a movie or TV series or a staged event?

We don't know what the emblem in the corner means. If I recall correctly it appears after the car is hit with some type of club and before the smashing of the window where the dog is. It looked spliced together from a couple of scenes/events.

We have no data in which to agree or disagree. I will say it is acts of vandalism but we do not have data to comment further.
 

AxelAnnie

Graceful men lift lovely girls in white!
Messages
12,365
This should happen at the level of public agencies devoted to dealing with mental health emergencies.

And also at the level of dispatch.

It does make sense for people to use 911 as the number to call in the case of an emergency. If you call 911 and report a fire or a heart attack, they don't send armed police -- they send firefighters or paramedics.

So have the correctly trained and tasked first responders available for these kinds of emergencies, and have the 911 dispatchers trained to call on them first.


If you called 911 to report a hostage situation, they would send armed police including SWAT/snipers, but they would also send a hostage negotiator to take the lead.

Why can't a similar approach be used on a smaller scale for a call that someone is mentally out of control and potentially a danger to him/herself and others? It may ultimately be necessary to take them down by force, in some cases even lethal force, but this needs to be a backup resort. There also needs to be someone whose default approach is trying to establish a rapport with the individual first, not to start with an adversarial approach.

Whether the people trained to take the nonviolent approach are members of the police force or some other agency may vary depend on the size of the municipality. But they should exist and should be the first responders in these situations.
I wonder if it would have happened like this 4-5 years ago.
Nope. IMO....people have gone round the bend and decided they a justified no matter what they do.
 

DFJ

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,444
3 counts of wanton endangerment? These seem rather slim to me. What about the actual death of one of the occupants of those apartments? I'm a little surprised.
 

Sparks

Well-Known Member
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11,624
LOUISVILLE, Ky. (AP) -- No officers charged directly in Breonna Taylor's death; 1 faces 3 counts over shooting into neighboring apartments.
 

Susan1

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,971
Before I went to the store and library, they were having a press conference talking about curfews and additional police presence. I knew that was a bad sign for what the announcement to come was going to be. Sheesh.
 

MacMadame

Staying at home
Messages
37,278
3 counts of wanton endangerment? These seem rather slim to me. What about the actual death of one of the occupants of those apartments? I'm a little surprised.
I was expecting this. The system is the problem. So you can't fix the problem using the system.

Get rid of no-knock warrants and have rules about shooting at all when in a dense living situation (apartments, condos, townhouses,etc), for starters. As long as these things are allowed, no police officer is going to be indicted for doing these things.
 

pollyanna

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,575
You charge an officer because their bullets went through a neighbors’ wall but not because they went into a Black body? America cares more about private property then it does Black Lives.
I am not defending the AG and Grand Jury's decision, which was PITIFUL, but to be fair, there were 3 people in the next apartment, including a child and a pregnant woman, and I believe that is why the officer was charged with wanton endangerment.

My children and I are horrified that no charges were filed against the officer who killed Taylor. It's crap.
 

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