Why Does This Keep Happening: The Police Thread

PrincessLeppard

Holding Alex Johnson's Pineapple
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I also love how police will beat the shit out of someone for "not showing respect." Dude, I worked Kohl's customer service for seven years. These snowflakes would last about 10 seconds on the job.
 

AxelAnnie

Graceful men lift lovely girls in white!
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Nope. The have absolute power in any situation they are involved in. They are the ones who are judge, jury and execution of the incident.

In any interaction they determine someone to be guilty, they determine what action the district attorney will do (arrest or let go either with a ticket or warning), the act as the judge - guilty or not, and what to do as the jury. Sometimes too often they determine death is the only answer.

DA, Judge, Jury and administrator of punishment. They absolutely have power in every single interaction
Oh....you are totally incorrect.
 

Tony Wheeler

Well-Known Member
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7,262
Oh....you are totally incorrect.
Here's what I'm going to tell you. If the police can act with any kind of force towards someone who is simply walking down the street and give him brain injuries for doing nothing at all (while they try to turn their body cams off), they are in total control.

If they can go into the wrong apartment and shoot someone dead WHILE THEY SLEEP, they are in total control. They still have not been arrested.

If they can go into a peaceful protest or peaceful wake of someone who has died and start tear gassing and pushing people out, they think they are in total control.

So carry on like usual.
 

once_upon

New condo owner
Messages
14,455
Oh....you are totally incorrect.
You ever been pulled over for traffic violation?

As a white over 60 woman, it goes like this.
"stay in the car". Run your plates, including if you have insurance. (suspicion of a crime)

Then they get out of the car...announcing keep your hands on the wheel. (Determining if you are a threat)

Ask why do you think you are pulled over (best answer here if you were speeding is I dont know). - acting as a DA is there enough evidence of a crime or have you admit guilt.

Then they ask you for your driver's license and registration. (Gathering evidence)

Run your license thru the database. (More evidence)

Inform you of how many violations you've had in the past. (Plea bargaining)

Make a determination if you get a warning or ticket. (Determining what they can charge you with)

If you get a ticket, they give you the option of attending a STOP class and keep your record clean or to go to court to pay a fine. (Judge and executor of punushment).

That's as a white woman. I could go through many scenarios, but you wont get it.

Police ALWAYS are in power.
 

jenny12

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6,578
I also love how police will beat the shit out of someone for "not showing respect." Dude, I worked Kohl's customer service for seven years. These snowflakes would last about 10 seconds on the job.
The patience of service industry people is unreal and it is really something that we have higher standards for them than police officers. My first job was at a McDonald’s when I was in high school. I still remember this one incident (of many similar to it) where a man entered the space of the drive through and got in my co-worker’s face (Who was a petite high school student) for a missing item or something. She was somehow able to de-escalate the situation without pulling a gun on the guy. But, ya know, I guess that’s too much to expect from police officers. And yes, I know police work is substantially more dangerous than working at a fast food place, but that is their job, that is what they are trained for, and we have far too long let the police literally and figuratively get away with murder because they “have a tough job.”
 
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Tony Wheeler

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7,262
Oh, I still to this day have drinks thrown at/all over me by disrespectful customers, or heated escalations to put it nicely. Or ones that want to complain about prices or about how they were next in line even though everybody knows they pushed their way to the front.

Luckily, I won’t ever fit in at a ‘customer is always right’ HR-filled establishment, and I think that mindset is quickly disappearing anyways. In bars you can get away with it because odds are the person is on the way to drunk and is being ridiculous anyways.. but alcohol doesn’t always cause such privilege.
 

Artistic Skaters

Drawing Figures
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7,406
Police officers were at the Elijah McClain memorial reenacting choke holds for photographs. Perhaps AxelAnnie will also explain to us how this is enforcing the law in our society of rules or the appropriateness of these actions by police.
Three Aurora police officers are under investigation for taking inappropriate photos at a memorial for Elijah McClain, sources tell CBS4 Investigator Brian Maass.

Maass reports the officers were shown reenacting the carotid restraint, which was used on McClain.
The McClain family issued the following statement through their attorney:
“Just when we thought the Aurora Police could not be any worse, they somehow find a new low. This is a department where officers tackled an innocent young black man for no reason, inflicted outrageous force – including two carotid chokeholds – for fifteen minutes as he pled for his life, joked when he vomited, and threatened to sic a dog on him for not lying still enough as he was dying. They tampered with their body cameras to hide the evidence. They exonerated the killers. They deployed riot police and spewed pepper gas on peaceful protestors [sic] at a vigil of mourners playing the violin. And now this."
 

MacMadame

Staying at home
Staff member
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34,491
And yes, I know police work is substantially more dangerous than working at a fast food place,
I'm not sure this is true though. On the job deaths of police officers have been dropping for decades. There does seem to be a recent very slight uptick since Trump was elected. Which makes the absolute safest time to be a police officer during the Obama years, btw.

Retail work in general doesn't often lead to getting killed. But certain subsets are more dangerous than others. Convenience stores, for example, get robbed a lot as do fast food places that are open late. There are a lot of on-the-job accidents in fast food too. It's more dangerous than people think.
 

Spikefan

Well-Known Member
Messages
597
Police officers were at the Elijah McClain memorial reenacting choke holds for photographs. Perhaps AxelAnnie will also explain to us how this is enforcing the law in our society of rules or the appropriateness of these actions by police.
When I first heard of his case I had a nightmare of one of the officers whispering hateful stuff in his ear as he was injected with ketamine. It was horrible and there was no evidence of this. However, my subconscious was clearly aware of how this is prevalent and this new information sadly confirms this.
 

Japanfan

Well-Known Member
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23,151
That it is a whole different thing. We live in a society of rules....not suggestions....and the police are charged with enforcing the laws.
Police do not have complete power. Sorry you think that. Police have the power to enforce the laws of the jurisdiction within which they work.
There was a recent case here involving a young Asian nursing student. I mention her ethnicity because racism against people of Chinese descent is on the rise here like everywhere else.

The woman was in a state of mental distress and her boyfriend called 911. One officer was dispatched - as I understand it two would have been preferable, one having expertise in the treatment of people with mental health issues, though I'm not sure whether that would be a police officer or different professional.

The officer proceeded to drag the woman by her arms out of her apartment and down the hallway. She was only wearing a sports bra on top, no shirt.

She then dragged her down the elevator, into the lobby, and to the front of the lobby. At that point, she gave the woman a kick in the head for good measure.

All of this was caught on video.

When did 'assault and beat' the person you were called to help become a rule? Which sometimes escalates into killing someone.

Seems me that some cops need a refresher course on what the rules are - and I would guess that police departments in general are in need of anti-racism/sexism training.
 
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AxelAnnie

Graceful men lift lovely girls in white!
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12,135
There was a recent case here involving a young Asian nursing student. I mention her ethnicity because racism against people of Chinese descent is on the rise here like everywhere else.

The woman was in a state of mental distress and her boyfriend called 911. One officer was dispatched - as I understand it two would have been preferable, one having expertise in the treatment of people with mental health issues, though I'm not sure whether that would be a police officer or different professional.

The officer proceeded to drag the woman by her arms out of her apartment and down the hallway. She was only wearing a sports bra on top, no shirt.

Then officer then got the woman into the elevator and down to the lobby, which she then dragged the woman across. At the point, she gave the woman a kick in the head for good measure.

All of this was caught on video.

When did 'assault and beat' the person you were called to help become a rule? Which sometimes escalates into killing someone.

Seems me that some cops need a refresher course on what the rules are - and I would guess that police departments in general are in need of anti-racism/sexism training.
I have no doubt that there are bad cops that to horrible things and good cops that loose it. I do not believe that the few define the many....like the police officer who saves a drowning child or a battered woman or 0laces himself between a deranged man with a shotgun and the wife and kids he is trying to shoot. And everytime a cop pulls over a driver not knowing what he is going to find. The courage that takes to face.the unknown is inspiring. How many of us would pull over a car and approach knowing that this car was just seen at the scene of a robbery a half mile away. You can condemn the bad ones, but you also must recognize the valor and courage of the vast majority of the men in blue.
 

Tony Wheeler

Well-Known Member
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7,262
I have no doubt that there are bad cops that to horrible things and good cops that loose it. I do not believe that the few define the many....like the police officer who saves a drowning child or a battered woman or 0laces himself between a deranged man with a shotgun and the wife and kids he is trying to shoot. And everytime a cop pulls over a driver not knowing what he is going to find. The courage that takes to face.the unknown is inspiring. How many of us would pull over a car and approach knowing that this car was just seen at the scene of a robbery a half mile away. You can condemn the bad ones, but you also must recognize the valor and courage of the vast majority of the men in blue.
Tell all of your friends that 'few do not define many' when they try to bring up the rioters and looters and the black on black crime, for starters. OR TELL YOURSELF. Or just look at the millions of people peaceful protesting.

'The courage it takes to face the unknown'? Sure. The examples I have given have nothing to do with courage and everything to do with an abuse of power.

So many words to say, but since it's likely you have me on ignore, hopefully someone else is eloquent in their eye-rolling with you.
 

Japanfan

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23,151
I have no doubt that there are bad cops that to horrible things and good cops that loose it. I do not believe that the few define the many....like the police officer who saves a drowning child or a battered woman or 0laces himself between a deranged man with a shotgun and the wife and kids he is trying to shoot.
I thought an airline pilot analogy was a good one. If one out of 10 or 20 airline pilots was bad and at risk of crashing the plane, would that be okay?

And every time a cop pulls over a driver not knowing what he is going to find. The courage that takes to face the unknown is inspiring. How many of us would pull over a car and approach knowing that this car was just seen at the scene of a robbery a half mile away. You can condemn the bad ones, but you also must recognize the valor and courage of the vast majority of the men in blue.
Yes, it is important to recognize the valor and courage of police officers - and they largely do receive that recognition.

However, there is broad acknowledgement of systemic racism within police forces and judicial systems.

This is mostly not about police killing people (not to undermine the importance of that), but about day-to-day police activities and interactions with civilians. For example, who is more likely to be pulled over for a road check, a POC or a white person? Which are police more likely to be aware of in terms in designating a person to be suspicious? Will POC be treated with less respect than white people when it comes to small issues like an expired license?

I once forget to renew my car insurance on time and when pulled over by an officer, also realized that my license had expired. The officer gave me the minimum fine possible and said it was important to him that people realized police could be good guys. Would he have treated me the same if I were a POC?

Then, racism extends into the judicial system, which disproportionately incarcerates POC and often gives them longer terms than white people.

This is all the worse in places where racism is particularly embedded in society. A police officer who is valorous and courageous in one situation can be racist in another situation. Without even recognizing it. Which is why anti-racism and anti-sexism training are so vital to policing.
 
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Japanfan

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23,151
Do you really think 1 out of 20 cops are bad? Not a chance.
Do you think you might have a different view of police officers if you were a poor women of color with little education and family members in gangs or prison?

And if you define a racist cop as 'bad', I think 1 in 20 would be a very low ratio. IMO everyone is racist to varying extents - especially unconsciously - although people don't want to admit it. It is particularly important for people who have power over citizens to address racist beliefs and attitudes.
 
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jenny12

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6,578
Do you really think 1 out of 20 cops are bad? Not a chance.
This question really simplifies the issue. The issue is not how many bad cops there are. The issue is the system: how cops are trained, how cops who murder are punished or not punished, etc. Police brutality pretty clearly shows that police are not being well trained in de-escalation tactics or what it means to have explicit and implicit bias. Police brutality shows that cops do not understand or care to use alternative methods to firearms or chokeholds. Police brutality shows that the police or the judicial system as a whole has not done well in holding police accountable. So when you have all those problems, the number of “bad cops” is irrelevant. It is a bad system and it needs to change.
 

AxelAnnie

Graceful men lift lovely girls in white!
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12,135
Do you think you might have a different view of police officers if you were a poor women of color with little education and family members in gangs or prison?

And if you define a racist cop as 'bad', I think 1 in 20 would be a very low ratio. IMO everyone is racist to varying extents - especially unconsciously - although people don't want to admit it. It is particularly important for people who have power over citizens to address racist beliefs and attitudes.
As long as you understand that these are your "thoughts" and not supported by facts.
 

AxelAnnie

Graceful men lift lovely girls in white!
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Is yours supported by facts or just your opinion that 1 in 20 is the wrong number? Sources?
Same as you. I am trying to compile stats...but it is difficult in that they don't keep good cop..bad cop categories. I shall keep looking. -https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01846-z

This site has many interesting articles.
 

AxelAnnie

Graceful men lift lovely girls in white!
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12,135
This article extrapolates a rate of 10%

What to do, what to do, what to do?

In my world.
1. Everyone wears a bodycam.
2. At second offense (once investigated) policeman dismissed.
3. Record traffic stops...the audio part. We certainly have the ability to do that.
4. From the time the cop reports to dispatch that he is pulling a car over to run the plates he has X number of seconds to have voice recording start.
5. Now I have to disclose that I think this idea is inherently racist. Cops riding in cars should be racially diverse. Especially going into a black area.
6. The guy who had his knee in the neck had 30.. THIRTY! Disciplinary infractions in his file! Both he, his commanding officer, his union, the review should be taken out and shot.....well at least taken out. ... .way far out.

 

Japanfan

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23,151
Is yours supported by facts or just your opinion that 1 in 20 is the wrong number? Sources?
As long as you understand that these are your "thoughts" and not supported by facts.
My viewpoint is also based on experiences/observations of systemic racism. I grew up in a Northern Canadian mining town with a large First Nations population and reserve/residential school. This was in the 60s, when no education about First Nations was given.

It was Apartheid in that town. First Nations had their own coffee shop in town, and sat in a section at the very back of the bar. They were very much constructed as inferior, although I don't think we said so directly. We did call the women 'squaws' IIRC. Sadly I've heard that things did not change much in the next decades.

Sometimes folks from the reserve would steal perfume from my dad's drug store for the alcohol, and my dad just let it go. They also used to make the most beautiful little souveniers - like beaded leather brooches with handcrafted little fur moccasins on them. Even so, we had no awareness of First Nations' cultural and artistic traditions.

I still remember the name of a Metis boy in my grade 7 class. He would have had to have been Metis, because the other First Nations went to the residential school. I was so struck by his presence that I still remember his face and where he sat in the classroom (or have a reconstructed memory). He was so very uncomfortable.

In high school I had a boyfriend whose family was interconnected with First Nations. I remember being fascinated by them and wanting to know more about them.

In such an environment most of the population is racist to a certain extent. It becomes embedded in the community. There was no official rule that First Nations had to sit at the back of the bar and go to a coffee shop that no whites went to, but there was an implicit understanding that things should be this way.

Professionals like doctors and police officers are no less likely to be racist in such an environment than anyone else - many of which still exist today. This is why anti-racism training is so important.

EDA: I just remembered a townhouse complex only about 10 minutes away from me. I had occasion to go there some years ago when I did door-to-door market research. It was a very ugly, shabby complex much like a barracks. The people I saw and talked to there were almost all immigrant POC. It's the kind of complex one would expect to find in a third world country, not a city that claims to be 'world-class'. There are many more such here and in neighboring municipalities - out of sight and out of mind. So no one really has to think about it, which could be troubling. The isolation of poor, immigrant communities is also a situation that can support racism in the larger community (especially when some of them are dangerous).
 
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Tony Wheeler

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7,262
There's a cheesy reality TV series on Netflix called 100 Humans that I watched when it first came out. It is exactly that- 100 humans that spend a week participating in a bunch of different activities to study human behavior. One of the episodes is actually quite serious and focuses on racial issues - they have the participants set up in a warehouse and are handed a (fake) gun. The objective is to shoot the 'criminal' that pops up behind crates while avoiding shooting the innocent parties. Of course, they turned this into a racial thing and overwhelmingly, the black guy was shot at even if he was the innocent one- I think he was shot at every single time except one when they tested having both the black and white guy pop up at once, and it just showed that the tendency is to automatically assume the black person is the bad one if you're forced to make a quick decision.

Anyways, the black man that was cast for this role was one of the casting directors that all of the participants had gotten to know and really enjoy over their stay. There's a really powerful scene where an innocent white girl 'shoots' him and then immediately bursts into tears and can't contain herself because she's just showed herself a learned behavior that she didn't recognize prior.

It's a pretty bad show altogether, but this segment was really informative and I think it can be applied to the way most people act/would react.

ETA- it's episode 4. I'm reading a bit about the show now (watched it months ago) and it has terrible synopses- mostly because of what people believe to be skewing the experiments to get a wanted result. I don't doubt that, but I still think the scene with the girl is very powerful.
 
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AxelAnnie

Graceful men lift lovely girls in white!
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12,135
My viewpoint is also based on experiences/observations of systemic racism. I grew up in a Northern Canadian mining town with a large First Nations population and reserve/residential school. This was in the 60s, when no education about First Nations was given.

It was Apartheid in that town. First Nations had their own coffee shop in town, and sat in a section at the very back of the bar. They were very much constructed as inferior, although I don't think we said so directly. We did call the women 'squaws' IIRC. Sadly I've heard that things did not change much in the next decades.

Sometimes folks from the reserve would steal perfume from my dad's drug store for the alcohol, and my dad just let it go. They also used to make the most beautiful little souveniers - like beaded leather brooches with handcrafted little fur moccasins on them. Even so, we had no awareness of First Nations' cultural and artistic traditions.

I still remember the name of a Metis boy in my grade 7 class. He would have had to have been Metis, because the other First Nations went to the residential school. I was so struck by his presence that I still remember his face and where he sat in the classroom (or have a reconstructed memory). He was so very uncomfortable.

In high school I had a boyfriend whose family was interconnected with First Nations. I remember being fascinated by them and wanting to know more about them.

In such an environment most of the population is racist to a certain extent. It becomes embedded in the community. There was no official rule that First Nations had to sit at the back of the bar and go to a coffee shop that no whites went to, but there was an implicit understanding that things should be this way.

Professionals like doctors and police officers are no less likely to be racist in such an environment than anyone else - many of which still exist today. This is why anti-racism training is so important.

EDA: I just remembered a townhouse complex only about 10 minutes away from me. I had occasion to go there some years ago when I did door-to-door market research. It was a very ugly, shabby complex much like a barracks. The people I saw and talked to there were almost all immigrant POC. It's the kind of complex one would expect to find in a third world country, not a city that claims to be 'world-class'. There are many more such here and in neighboring municipalities - out of sight and out of mind. So no one really has to think about it, which could be troubling. The isolation of poor, immigrant communities is also a situation that can support racism in the larger community (especially when some of them are dangerous).

Fabulous post. Thank you.
 

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