Why Does This Keep Happening: The Police Thread

Cachoo

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Well I suspect the answer is we have never truly faced our history. What do you remember about this subject in Social Studies or other classes? I had one enlightened fourth grade teacher who embraced Jane Elliot's Brown Eyes/Blue Eyes experiment and texts about slavery but generally after that it was mostly crickets until college. When you don't face up to the mistakes of the past at one point or another there will be a reckoning. And there is so much to face.
 

Tony Wheeler

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Well I suspect the answer is we have never truly faced our history. What do you remember about this subject in Social Studies or other classes? I had one enlightened fourth grade teacher who embraced Jane Elliot's Brown Eyes/Blue Eyes experiment and texts about slavery but generally after that it was mostly crickets until college. When you don't face up to the mistakes of the past at one point or another there will be a reckoning. And there is so much to face.
Coming from a suburb that was over 97% white and less than 1% black, I too remember the Jane Elliott study being shown in my fourth grade class (in the mid 90's) and it always stuck with me. Then most of the social studies courses through the remainder of my schooling had little to nothing to do with black history. I never had a black teacher throughout graduating high school and I don't know that there even was one in the school.

I've said it before - when I moved to Ohio State and started college, it was definitely a different atmosphere than the one I grew up in. This is why SO MUCH of my frustration is over a lot of these bubble people repeatedly ranting how social issues aren't problems in their own one-note worlds so therefore it has to be true of the entire US/world.
 
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caseyedwards

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I do not support refighting civil war or trying to win the peace. Let the statues that were done to recognize people who died and people who others died for have the statues. Some people say this is embracing the lost cause and I say that is partly true! Let the people honor their dead because Germany went so crazy trying to erase all nazi that the cemeteries having nazis is controversial! So when are cemeteries banned from having confederates? When is Arlington cemetery banned from having any confederates? It’s not going to stop ever! Let everything alone and let it stand! Museums are banning all donations of confederate memorabilia. So it’s just too much erasure and let a little of the lost cause stick around. Build anti lost cause statues. That’s a good thing too
 

Cachoo

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I do have a problem with Confederate statues because they were put up as a f*** you to black people living in the South.
 

caseyedwards

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I do have a problem with Confederate statues because they were put up as a f*** you to black people living in the South.
I read many articles from when the statues of Lee and others were dedicated and black people were never mentioned in them. Only Old confederate Veterans and their children or descendants. For many years after civil war there was no ability or money to do anything to honor war dead. One of the more surprising things was President McKinley becoming A main advocate of confederate memorials. Northern republican!
 

Cachoo

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From NPR:

"Most of the people who were involved in erecting the monuments were not necessarily erecting a monument to the past," said Jane Dailey, an associate professor of history at the University of Chicago."But were rather, erecting them toward a white supremacist future."

The most recent comprehensive study of Confederate statues and monuments across the country was published by the Southern Poverty Law Center last year. A look at this chart shows huge spikes in construction twice during the 20th century: in the early 1900s, and then again in the 1950s and 60s. Both were times of extreme civil rights tension.


In the early 1900s, states were enacting Jim Crow laws to disenfranchise black Americans. In the middle part of the century, the civil rights movement pushed back against that segregation.


James Grossman, the executive director of the American Historical Association, says that the increase in statues and monuments was clearly meant to send a message.

"These statues were meant to create legitimate garb for white supremacy," Grossman said. "Why would you put a statue of Robert E. Lee or Stonewall Jackson in 1948 in Baltimore?"



or in the words of Blood, Sweat and Tears: What goes up must come down.....
 

MacMadame

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I read many articles from when the statues of Lee and others were dedicated and black people were never mentioned in them. Only Old confederate Veterans and their children or descendants. For many years after civil war there was no ability or money to do anything to honor war dead. One of the more surprising things was President McKinley becoming A main advocate of confederate memorials. Northern republican!
And the Civil War was about state's rights. Sure... tell me another one.
 

VGThuy

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You wanna bring up President McKinley? Who wanted to annex The Philippines based on racist white supremacist reasons?
 

snoopy

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Just about the entire history of anything white in the US will be tied up in the system of white privilege, and so an argument could be made to tear just about everything white down. That would get quite messy.
 

Cachoo

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And the Civil War was about state's rights. Sure... tell me another one.
A few years back at a site for the Kansas Jayhawks this guy just lit into me about that. There was always bad blood between the Jayhawks and Mizzou Tigers and it went beyond a normal college rivalry and so much of it was because of what happened in "Bleeding Kansas" before the Civil War. They are now in a different conference and I think that is for the best. But it just slayed me that he was absolutely convinced that the Civil War was not about slavery. I will never understand that mindset.

I think what is happening with the police is a symptom of a much bigger problem and it has to do with neglect and with a refusal to come to terms with our past.
 

jenny12

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No. They were not.
The Confederacy fought for the preservation of slaves + Slaves were black people + Statues honor people + Statues of confederates = the biggest f*** you to Black people of all time as they were honoring the people who fought to keep them enslaved. This is very simple math.
 

Tony Wheeler

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The Confederacy fought for the preservation of slaves + Slaves were black people + Statues honor people + Statues of confederates = the biggest f*** you to Black people of all time as they were honoring the people who fought to keep them enslaved. This is very simple math.
Simple math and common sense don’t exist with said person, who literally called it 'racist', even though misquoting him, that Joe Biden would limit himself to only picking a black VP.
 
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caseyedwards

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The Confederacy fought for the preservation of slaves + Slaves were black people + Statues honor people + Statues of confederates = the biggest f*** you to Black people of all time as they were honoring the people who fought to keep them enslaved. This is very simple math.
Most soldiers didn’t have slaves and didn’t care about anything about slavery and slavery was totally academic issue to them. They lived in a state and that meant They lived in a new country. That country drafted them to fight and they did! This is like saying all the people who fought in Vietnam believed in the war. All the people who fought in Iraq believed in Iraq war. United States has two of the most evil wars of all time and there is vietnam memorial and probably Iraq soldier memorials too. People don’t celebrate the soldiers for the wars they fight in but that they served and died or were wounded
 

jenny12

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Most soldiers didn’t have slaves and didn’t care about anything about slavery and slavery was totally academic issue to them. They lived in a state and that meant They lived in a new country. That country drafted them to fight and they did! This is like saying all the people who fought in Vietnam believed in the war. All the people who fought in Iraq believed in Iraq war. United States has two of the most evil wars of all time and there is vietnam memorial and probably Iraq soldier memorials too. People don’t celebrate the soldiers for the wars they fight in but that they served and died or were wounded
It does not matter what individual solders did or believed. The point is what the Civil War represented. Fighting for the Confederacy means you fought for the preservation of slavery, a history that continues to be extraordinarily painful for Black people in America. Why is preserving the history of the Confederacy more important than the pain of Black people today?
 

caseyedwards

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It does not matter what individual solders did or believed. The point is what the Civil War represented. Fighting for the Confederacy means you fought for the preservation of slavery, a history that continues to be extraordinarily painful for Black people in America. Why is preserving the history of the Confederacy more important than the pain of Black people today?
I just disagree. There are millions of descendants of confederate soldiers living in America. These are not slavery supporters if they honor their ancestors. Soldiers can’t be Seen as Automatically supporting the cause of the army they fought in. Otherwise people will start calling for Vietnam memorial be torn down.
 

JJH

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The millions of african americans who live in the south and whose ancestors were held in slavery in the south also have the right to honor the suffering of their ancestors by demanding that statues of the powerful men who led armies and supported their oppression that those statues be removed.

This was a civil war. There were two sides within the south, not just one. I don't think that Vietnam is full of war memorials for American Generals.
 

jenny12

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I just disagree. There are millions of descendants of confederate soldiers living in America. These are not slavery supporters if they honor their ancestors. Soldiers can’t be Seen as Automatically supporting the cause of the army they fought in. Otherwise people will start calling for Vietnam memorial be torn down.
Nothing is stopping those descendants from honoring their family privately (though regardless of who my ancestors is, I’m not really in the habit of honoring my civil-war era ancestors). However, when someone’s ancestor represents fighting for the preservation of slavery for a great deal of people, then I think that is more important than anything else.

JJH has succinctly pointed out the problem with the Vietnam war memorial comparison.

I just don’t understand what people really get out of the preservation of Civil War era statues. Oh yeah, I do. It is the need (whether implicitly or explicitly) to remind Black people of where you think there place is. It’s all the same: crying about Aunt Jemima, crying about Gone with the Wind, crying about statues. I’m sure the people whining about preserving history never gave these things a second thought until recent movements started questioning why we as a society have been so thoughtless about the way we preserve the slave era. The fact that some are so threatened by Black people not wanting to accept these macro and micro aggressions anymore shows how deeply some white people define themselves by white privilege. Time to wake up, do some soul searching and understand why you cannot be you unless Black people “know their place.”
 
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caseyedwards

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Nothing is stopping those descendants from honoring their family privately (though regardless of who my ancestors is, I’m not really in the habit of honoring my civil-war era ancestors). However, when someone’s ancestor represents fighting for the preservation of slavery for a great deal of people, then I think that is more important than anything else.
It’s just impossible to convey the message that not everyone who serves in an army believes in the way that army is being used for. The leaders causes. The leaders reasons
 

caseyedwards

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The millions of african americans who live in the south and whose ancestors were held in slavery in the south also have the right to honor the suffering of their ancestors by demanding that statues of the powerful men who led armies and supported their oppression that those statues be removed.

This was a civil war. There were two sides within the south, not just one. I don't think that Vietnam is full of war memorials for American Generals.
They do! Of course they do. No one is saying they don’t have the right to pass bills to allow for taking down confederate monuments. But the Lincoln memorial exists for ending slavery

There is no distinction being made between Lee statues and confederate soldier statues. Lincoln has a memorial because he abolished slavery. Southern states and many towns across America have statues of confederate soldiers. Not lee statues. It doesn’t matter. There was a belief even of some northern veterans that statues of confederate soldiers were fine because they served just like they did. Causes didn’t matter.

I don’t agree with this thing where people have decided to refight the civil war and say confederates werent punished enough. In 1974 lee got his citizenship back! Should lee be stripped of his citizenship again? Why was lee given back his citizenship in 1974? Can’t wait to have this be discussed in 2021 where all democrats pass the bill stripping lee of his citizenship again because he committed treason. Because it’s time to refight the civil war and beat the south for real this time!

Jefferson Davis got his citizenship back in 1978
In posthumously restoring the full rights of citizenship to Jefferson Davis, the Congress officially completes the long process of reconciliation that has reunited our people following the tragic conflict between the States,” the resolution read on October 17, 1978.
 
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Sparks

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I have ancestors who served in the Confederacy. In fact, if I wanted, I could be a member of the DOC, who were instrumental in the 1920's in putting up statues of Confederate generals. <ugh>
My Paternal Great Grandfather was from Georgia. He went to Texas. Then the Civil war broke out. He enlisted...for the Union. When he came home to Texas, he was ostracized, so he homesteaded in Oklahoma. He and his children were still racists. History is complicated.
 

Artistic Skaters

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As for this somehow harming the movement, that is what they said about Martin Luther King! He was once the most hated man in America, you know. People always bitch about protests, no matter what. So people who want to discredit this movement will find something to complain about even if the people in it all 100% behave like angels. Not to mention, there is evidence that sometimes violent protest works.
Oh yes, I definitely meant to discredit the movement that I have been supporting for years here with my comments, as well as MLK. And I have obviously been bitching about protests all these years too. :rolleyes: When these things happen it seems like people are always lumped into one of two groups, for us or against us, when really there are so many gray areas to a lot of these issues.

The legislator who was beaten is a Democratic gay senator who has been supporting the protestors cause. He works at the statehouse and has every right to take photographs in public outside of his office building, as do any other citizens or press. Now if it was the POLICE who kicked him and sent him to the hospital for taking a picture, imagine the comments we would be reading here, including mine. Also according to other news reports, there was a black man going to the hospital to pick up his wife or girlfriend. They threw a bike at his car and when he got out of the car, they beat and kicked him to the ground as well. He has been a supporter of the movement, but I guess some here will feel that the working class black man should just take one for the team every now and then. So what if he ends up facing hardship because his car is destroyed and he incurs expensive medical bills? Mindless violent protestors have taken to the streets to fight for his safety as well as protection from incurring expensive medical bills for unnecessary brutality!

As for the statues, there are a myriad of considerations other than just decapitating the ones we dislike and throwing them in the river. I'm all for removing the Confederate statues from public arenas, however, I completely disagree with the rah rah destruction people regarding the handling of them.

The mass produced statues bought by the Confederate women descendants for the town squares and parks are cheap reproductions like starving artist conveyor belt paintings. Not to mention big moneymakers in their day for lots of northern state companies. They can throw those away in a Confederate statue graveyard somewhere and stack them sky high. Someone can photograph the new configuration, write a book and it could make for an interesting project before they recycle the metal and melt them down.

Other statues are works by notable artists. You can pretend all you want that is not the case, but it is. These can be removed for temporary storage until various dispositions can be determined. Some may be contextualized in museums or sold to other non-profits for transfer to private property, or even perhaps purchased back by artists' families. Don't pretend there are no organizations interested in these statues as works of art, because we had two statues taken down this month here and non-profit organizations have already expressed interest in them for private purposes. Sometimes when it comes to art, subject matter is not the only consideration. I appreciate the ones who have spoken up here on the art issues involved, and I'm sorry to see the narrow-mindedness that can't even acknowledge a reasonable POV to develop plans for removal from an art preservation perspective.
 
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snoopy

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When these things happen it seems like people are always lumped into one of two groups, for us or against us, when really there are so many gray areas to a lot of these issues.
This. I don’t know why it is, but we frequently revert to black and white thinking patterns. And it’s a human trait for sure as people on all sides of the political spectrum do it (statues or masks!) I think it would be easier to actually solve problems if we didn’t see everyone who was a little different as the enemy.
 

Artistic Skaters

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It looks like in the disposition of this case they said the off-duty police officer did not have the authority to yank the woman out of the car, taser her or arrest her, so the charges were dropped. It was also determined that the officer lied in his report, yet according to his supporters the charges against the off-duty officer for improper use of force are being done for political reasons. :rolleyes:
 

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