Why Does This Keep Happening: The Police Thread

AxelAnnie

Graceful men lift lovely girls in white!
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IMO, we commemorate MLK because it lets us pretend racism is over. But we've never dealt with our history of slavery as a nation and needs to be done.
How would you suggest we DEAL with it? What actions would you recommend? What steps do we take? What would America look like when we are finished.
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
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I don't mean to make light but being a skating forum when I see MLK I think of Michelle Kwan. It is just the MK.
 
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How would you suggest we DEAL with it? What actions would you recommend? What steps do we take? What would America look like when we are finished.
Some of it is actually not that hard. Stop whitewashing history. Stop celebrating the oppressors in history. Some of it is hard. Dismantle systems that reinforce the inequities between white people and black people. The justice system needs a overhaul. The healthcare system needs an overhaul. Black people should not die at a higher rate than white people. That cannot be acceptable. More diversity in leadership. If you only have white men making decisions, you only get the perspective of white men. Heck, right now there’s all kinds of black leaders that have been studying and examining these issues for years telling us where the inequities lie and how to fix them. We could start by listening to them.

For the record, I think the same things need to happen in my country. We have our own shameful history with racism and we have a long way to go. It may not be the most comfortable process but it’s not impossible.
 

AxelAnnie

Graceful men lift lovely girls in white!
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Ben Crump attorney for Floyd Family urged Americans to step back and take a "broad view" of the underlying issues.

"I think we have to figure out how to honor people who have done things that are beneficial to society, and if they did things that were not beneficial to society, that we can examine in the lens of having a broad view of what we believe as Americans represent the best attributes of our national identity, then we should look at that," Crump told Fox News host Neil Cavuto on Saturday.
Dismantle systems that reinforce the inequities between white people and black people.
Everyone wants to dismantle things, but if we speed along we may not be looking at nor dismantling the right things. Roosevelt started us down this path with the New Deal that was supposed to be a short bridge for people during the depression. This resulted in families making more money if the man (husband, children's father, etc) was not in the home. That has worked out badly.

And, knee-jerk reactions don't help. Nancy Pelosi, for example:

Pelosi orders the removal of portraits of former House speakers who served in the Confederacy .

It looks splashy on the news, but who does it benefit, and how did Nancy get in charge of this?

Joe Biden, bless his heart, has committed to naming a woman of color as his VP pick. Sounds good, right? Is it good? No. I would rather he pick the best candidate for the job. What he said is racist, IMO.

It is all pretty messed up.
 

Tony Wheeler

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Joe Biden, bless his heart, has committed to naming a woman of color as his VP pick. Sounds good, right? Is it good? No. I would rather he pick the best candidate for the job. What he said is racist, IMO.

It is all pretty messed up.
How about this.. rather than telling people to keep up with the news or catch up with the breaking news, why don't you put an ounce into your own research? Biden has committed to a WOMAN as his VP pick. Period. Nothing extra. He is being pushed by some to choose a woman of color, but that's on him to decide and he hasn't said anything otherwise.

And if you don't see that picking a woman of color in this current US climate as being a good thing (and there ARE many qualified choices-- again look into it), then you are once again all but sharing your typically backwards beliefs.

You need to learn what being racist is, too, seeing how you are putting words in other peoples' mouths and coming to one weird-ass conclusion.
 

Buzz

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33,396
I found this:

 

Tony Wheeler

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The numbers are correct, however I'm not sure why this Ohio small-town 'I have seen the whole world' trash is trying to claim it as an excuse for his continued rhetoric that somehow BLM doesn't matter or that every single one of these cases MUST HAVE been black-related. That's the only reason this note is being given in THIS thread.

You didn't like how I just defined you in with other Ohioans as trash, do you? You'll probably tell me I 'don't know anything' as a rebuttal. Stop doing it to the black community then.
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
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23,140
I've read or watched it in at least a half dozen sources. Yet you tell me your source for American news tells you all you need to know??????
Sorry I wasn't saying I knew anything. You were. I don't have to prove anything to you here. You have to prove it to us.

But no need to get defensive or try to gaslight me because I asked you a very simple question. If you can't post a link then you can just say you saw a few news articles about it. But then do not point the finger at me that I have some accountability to provide you with information when you raised the subject.
 
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b-man

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1,196
Sorry I wasn't saying I knew anything. You were. I don't have to prove anything to you here. You have to prove it to us.

But no need to get defensive or try to gaslight me because I asked you a very simple question. If you can't post a link then you can just say you saw a few news articles about it. But then do not point the finger at me that I have some accountability to provide you with information when you raised the subject.
I will rephrase my comment. I don't always provide links to major stories that are covered by multiple sources, I assume others will have, or should have, seen the story. Though the MSM has often been downplaying, minimizing, ignoring the severity of the riots the last few weeks, even the MSM cannot ignore the slaughter occurring on American streets the last week. And the slaughter was not just confined to Chicago and NYC.

I wasn't asking you to provide information, just wondering why you were not familiar with the story. Maybe the time difference, or maybe you are using a source which downplays the riots.
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
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I will rephrase my comment. I don't always provide links to major stories that are covered by multiple sources, I assume others will have, or should have, seen the story. Though the MSM has often been downplaying, minimizing, ignoring the severity of the riots the last few weeks, even the MSM cannot ignore the slaughter occurring on American streets the last week. And the slaughter was not just confined to Chicago and NYC.

I wasn't asking you to provide information, just wondering why you were not familiar with the story. Maybe the time difference, or maybe you are using a source which downplays the riots.
I wasn't even aware of the issue and I am not sure why you would assume I would be. If I have links to sources on anything I will post them. I would much rather not saying anything about something I have seen in the news if I don't have a link. If I don't have a link I will start by saying "I have heard …..".

But in future just to reassure you I will make sure I link anything in future. Otherwise I won't comment.
 

b-man

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The numbers are correct, however I'm not sure why this Ohio small-town 'I have seen the whole world' trash is trying to claim it as an excuse for his continued rhetoric that somehow BLM doesn't matter or that every single one of these cases MUST HAVE been black-related. That's the only reason this note is being given in THIS thread.

You didn't like how I just defined you in with other Ohioans as trash, do you? You'll probably tell me I 'don't know anything' as a rebuttal. Stop doing it to the black community then.
If this is directed at me, you are making a lot of assumptions that I never said, and making attributions that I never said. You seem to have a lot of fixation on BLM, which I have not focused on. But since you seem to be an expert on these criminal issues, maybe you can enlighten the forum on how many of the shootings in Chicago were black related, and how many were not.
 

Tony Wheeler

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If this is directed at me, you are making a lot of assumptions that I never said, and making attributions that I never said. You seem to have a lot of fixation on BLM, which I have not focused on. But since you seem to be an expert on these criminal issues, maybe you can enlighten the forum on how many of the shootings in Chicago were black related, and how many were not.
I’m making inferences based on what you do say, and the manner in which you’re saying it. You know what you’re doing posting that in this thread.

Do you want me to spell it out clearly from your bubble, or do you want to try to explain the point you were trying to make?
 

ballettmaus

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14,337
You seem to have a lot of fixation on BLM, which I have not focused on. But since you seem to be an expert on these criminal issues, maybe you can enlighten the forum on how many of the shootings in Chicago were black related, and how many were not.
Well, this thread is about racism and specifically racism pertaining to police action that turns deadly.
 

Artistic Skaters

Drawing Figures
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7,467
You didn't like how I just defined you in with other Ohioans as trash, do you?
I'm not clear on why you need to word your remarks this way, but the trash stinks all across America when it's left to fester. Some of your remarks are reeking pretty bad today and this one can go into the same garbage bin with the "Listen woman" mansplaining. I'm not about to be defined as trash by you based on where I call home, so check the decency of your own words if you're so concerned about the manner of comments used by other posters.
 

Tony Wheeler

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I'm not clear on why you need to word your remarks this way, but the trash stinks all across America when it's left to fester. Some of your remarks are reeking pretty bad today and this one can go into the same garbage bin with the "Listen woman" mansplaining. I'm not about to be defined as trash by you based on where I call home, so check the decency of your own words if you're so concerned about the manner of comments used by other posters.
Ohio is my home too. The purpose was to make a point about exactly said person was tying to do with a ‘community’ as a whole. It had nothing to do with you or anyone else.

Second, as pretty much everyone figured out or questioned me privately about (which, feel free to do- I actually think based on past posts we may have skated at the same rink at the same time) my listen woman reply to was to someone constantly putting everyone else down with her narrow-minded rants and total lack of empathy for just about every minority. She had literally just trashed someone who shared her personal story of why Black Lives Matter and the struggles that poster had gone through as being part of the black community. You better believe I had other select words for her rather than that. It had nothing to do with WOMEN in general and if you want to check receipts on that, feel free.
 

VGThuy

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32,182
It’s cute that b-man thinks people aren’t seeing through him. There are so many responses about how people use “black-on-black” crime ONLY when BLM and disproportionate police violence against POC are discussed because it’s as classic as wearing a white hoodie. It’s like when people only mention due process issues when men get accused of rape-sexual assault by female victims.
 

Artistic Skaters

Drawing Figures
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Ohio is my home too. The purpose was to make a point about exactly said person was tying to do with a ‘community’ as a whole. It had nothing to do with you or anyone else.
Then it helps to address the individual as the individual rather than generalizing about Ohioans as trash. I disagree with b-man, demetriosj, and Axel Annie pretty much all the time, but don't need to use insulting discourse that umbrellas over others while doing it.

b-man implied that all the recent shootings were related to riots. Among the incidents, the violence in NC was apparently at a block party. None of the shootings in my city have been during protests or downtown vandalism. Most of them are usually related to domestic violence, irresponsible gun owners with anger issues carrying around weapons when they have an explosive outburst, and other criminal activity like robberies, carjackings, house invasions or drugs.

The young girl in Akron who was shot and killed was driving to the store with her grandmother. I'm sure an actual analysis would show the majority of these recent shootings has to do with the Guns Guns Guns topic rather than protests, unrest, or police brutality/abuse of power.
 

Artistic Skaters

Drawing Figures
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7,467
We have several new directives and policy changes here this month:
  • Mayor issued directive no tear gas could be used at demonstrations and only pepper spray as a last resort against individuals and not non-violent demonstrators. Police have already shown they cannot comply with this, resulting in a new round of criticism by city council members and US congresswoman.
  • City council taking action to stop military purchases by police. Thank you Elizabeth Brown, daughter of Sherrod. Maybe the police can sell off what they already have to survivalist groups, and the proceeds can be used to cut down on the number of bake sales needed by the school system.
  • Agreement by city and state leadership to remove three statues. Unfortunately, the statue of James Rhodes (who helped kill the four students at Kent State for personal political gain) is still standing. I don't go along with destroying or vandalizing public sculpture, but if someone wants to dress him up in a tie-dye that says "I killed four students fifty years ago and all I got was this lousy T-shirt" and forward a photograph to the six o'clock news, then I hear crickets.
 

MacMadame

Staying at home
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35,372
b-man implied that all the recent shootings were related to riots. Among the incidents, the violence in NC was apparently at a block party. None of the shootings in my city have been during protests or downtown vandalism. Most of them are usually related to domestic violence, irresponsible gun owners with anger issues carrying around weapons when they have an explosive outburst, and other criminal activity like robberies, carjackings, house invasions or drugs.
Also while 358% sounds like an enormous amount, it's 55 people. I would like to see more than one week of stats given in isolation to see if this is a troubling number. With small numbers like that, it's easy to have a bad week here and there or alternatively a really good week. I'd want to know what the monthly average was and how this month compares to a typical month. If you look at the numbers in context, NYC had some of the lowest crime rates in 2017 compared to other big cities. But since then crime has slowly gone up. Not by a lot but enough that officials are concerned.

Here are the stats for the 2nd week in June for murder for NYC:

6/8 - 6/14 2020: 3 vs. 2019: 5 Diff: -40.0%
28 Day stats: 2020: 38 vs. 2019: 19 Diff: 100.0
Year-to-date 2020: 159 vs 2019: 127 Diff: 25.2
2 yr change: 13.6%
10 yr change: -23.6%'
27 yr change: -81.1

This does not include all the shootings in the 358% number because that only ended 2 days ago. They should be released soon.
 

b-man

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1,196
b-man implied all the recent shootings were related to the riots. AMong the incidents, the violence in NC was apparently at a block party. None of the shootings in my city have been during protests or downtown vandalism. Most of them are usually related to domestic violence, irresponsible gun owners with anger issues carrying around weapons when they have an explosive outburst, and other criminal activity like robberies, carjackings, house invasions or drugs.
Certainly not all recent shootings are riot related, but likely the huge spike in shootings may be riot related, or related to the defund the police movement.
 

Artistic Skaters

Drawing Figures
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7,467
There is nothing to substantiate that opinion at this time b-man and I'm not expecting that to be the case.

There is, however, today's news about the protests in Madison, WI taking a turn toward violence. Will protest supporters call this out for the destructive and criminal behavior it is and help prevent further such incidents? Or will there be justifications and silence?
During the melee late Tuesday, Democratic state Sen. Tim Carpenter was assaulted after filming the protesters.

"I don't know what happened ... all I did was stop and take a picture ... and the next thing I'm getting five-six punches, getting kicked in the head," Carpenter told a Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reporter following the assault.
In Madison, statues of Wisconsin's motto "Forward" and of Col. Hans Christian Heg were dragged away from their spots guarding the statehouse. Heg was an anti-slavery activist who fought and died for the Union during the U.S. Civil War. His nearly 100-year-old sculpture was decapitated and thrown into a Madison lake by protesters.
In Madison, statues of Wisconsin's motto "Forward" and of Col. Hans Christian Heg were dragged away from their spots guarding the statehouse.
This is not like so many of the cases of criminal destruction that have been documented in other cities and mainly seem to the work of opportunistic looters rather than protestors. This sounds like a group of actual protestors turning to criminal violence. It's going to setback the movement because it's hard to make a case for systemic change to stop violence if so-called supporters are going to escalate violence and act like the vigilante mobs they are supposed to be against. It's upsetting to see because a couple nights of actions by a group of two to three hundred is going to cancel out all those weeks of peaceful protests by hundreds of thousands if it's not stopped. It shows that for some, destruction of public art is more for sport than anything else. Participants who create a vigilante group to assault state leaders are not friends and supporters of a movement trying to enact positive change. I hope the organizers and peaceful protestors are going to emphatically speak up about this before there is irreversible damage to the progress that is being made.
 
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Dobre

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7,536
I confess I haven't been following the article(s) closely that I've seen about planes flying over protest zones, but here is an article about one that flew over Portland.
???

After a Mysterious Plane Circled Over Portland Protests, Oregon’s Congressional Delegation Calls for Answers
"This is an invasive, dragnet surveillance tool," the lawmakers said.



"Five members of Oregon's congressional delegation are calling on the U.S. Marshals Service to disclose information about airplanes surveilling protesters in Portland and potentially mining their cellphone data.

U.S. Sens. Ron Wyden and Jeff Merkley, and Reps. Suzanne Bonamici, Earl Blumenauer and Kurt Schrader signed onto a June 24 letter demanding the Marshals Service disclose information about an airplane that circled above Portland over 30 times on June 13 as thousands of protesters marched on the streets below."


A scare tactic? The alternative would be worse.
 

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