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Why Does This Keep Happening: The Police Thread

MacMadame

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i don't really agree with this assessment , plenty of innoncent white people are killed too
I'm not sure your point. You are responding to a post that says that the public was outraged because Justine was white and the cop who shot her was not. How does showing that other white people also get shot prove her point wrong?
 

Justlooking

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I'm not sure your point. You are responding to a post that says that the public was outraged because Justine was white and the cop who shot her was not. How does showing that other white people also get shot prove her point wrong?[/Q
Because I felt there wasn't much outrage for the cases I linked, where they were white too. And the officers were not charged ( or even identified ! They blurred the officers in the first case I linked) too. I feel the thing that really helped Justine Diamond's case was that she was Australian and not that she was white, and that it wouldn't have been appreciated by Australia if the policeman had not been charged.
 

MacMadame

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I don't think we care that much what Australia thinks, TBH. I think the police officer got charged because of the public outrage. Why the public gets outraged sometimes and not others is hard to track down, but just pointing out some white people who were shot by police doesn't really prove anything one way or another.
 

snoopy

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The nurse in Idaho who was attacked by a policeman in the hospital got a lot of outrage. But really, to me, what these incidents show is the cops are out of control and its not just about black kids snapping back. Cops need some anger management classes or something.
 

Artistic Skaters

Drawing Figures
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It looks like this is the resolution for the Alton Sterling case.

*** Alton Sterling shooting: Baton Rouge officer fired as graphic body camera footage released :
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ouge-officer-fired-excessive-force/474566002/
Salamoni, the only officer to open fire, was terminated. Lake will be suspended for three days. Neither are in danger of being charged criminally, though, as an investigation by the state's Attorney General did not find sufficient evidence of a crime. That finding was announced earlier this week.

After the announcement Friday, the department released graphic body camera footage showing Salamoni calling Sterling a variety of profanity-laced names while the injured man lay bleeding to death on the concrete.

Paul said the disparate disciplinary actions were due to the differing actions by the officers. Lake was trying to deescalate the situation while Salamoni resorted to deadly force, which Paul said did not follow departmental policies.
 

Vash01

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The killers of Stephon Clark must be charged with murder. That's what it was, and I believe the only reason for it was the color of his skin. Unless and Until police officers who killed civilians are not charged with the crime they may have committed (fairly or unfairly), they will continue to do this. Give them the opportunity to defend themselves in the court of law, and not just within their departments. Their department won't change their rules and won't provide training unless it comes back to bite them. If their coworkers tell lies to protect their buddies, they should be charged with perjury or whatever else (co-conspiracy?).
 

Artistic Skaters

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An incident in Asheville, NC from last summer involving a jaywalking pedestrian & a police officer now has the video posted online & the (now ex-) officer was charged last month.

*** Video shows police punching, choking, stunning a black man accused of jaywalking :
http://theweek.com/speedreads/76482...choking-stunning-black-man-accused-jaywalking
Rush, who is black, was walking home from work when he was confronted by Hickman, who is white, as well as a second officer, Verino Ruggiero, who was still in training. The officers told Rush he had "just committed four crimes in a row": trespassing by walking across a parking lot and jaywalking "again and again."

"All I'm trying to do is go home, man," Rush replied. Asked why it's too hard to use a crosswalk, he sought to diffuse the situation. "You're right," he said. "It's not, sir. It's not. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. You're right."
City of Asheville commentary & links to all the police videos :
http://coablog.ashevillenc.gov/2018...t-body-worn-camera-viewing-information-guide/
These recordings depict an event which occurred August 24 and 25, 2017. What happened in these recordings is unacceptable and does not meet the standards of the Asheville Police Department, the values of the City of Asheville, or the expectations of Asheville residents. Christopher Hickman, who used dangerous and excessive force against Johnnie Rush, was quickly taken off the street, and subsequently resigned from the police department before he was terminated. He currently faces state criminal charges, and is the subject of a federal civil rights investigation.
 

MacMadame

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The only thing good about that Starbucks video is that white people are standing up for the two Black guys and not just letting it happen. We need more of that if we want to get racial equality.
 

Vash01

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No one was shot, fortunately, but two black men were arrested for sitting at a Starbucks, waiting for a friend. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-are-on-the-defensive/?utm_term=.fb42cb03a53b

This is beyond comprehensible and what is even less comprehensible to me is that no one seems to have gotten fired yet.
Starbucks CEO apologized and said he would improve training about implicit bias for the employees. That's pretty lame, IMO. The employees who called the police just because two black men sat there without ordering should be fired.

Shame on Starbucks.
 

Zemgirl

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Starbucks CEO apologized and said he would improve training about implicit bias for the employees. That's pretty lame, IMO. The employees who called the police just because two black men sat there without ordering should be fired.
Retraining Starbucks' workforce so that nothing like this will not happen again is a more important action than firing a couple of low-level employees. Pinning everything on them would have been a copout and a true evasion of responsibility.

I hope the focus will soon shift away from this (admittedly appalling) incident to dealing with serious police abuses and their underlying causes. It's not enough to fire people (which is difficult anyway given qualified immunity). There is a mindset that needs to be changed significantly.
 

ballettmaus

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Retraining Starbucks' workforce so that nothing like this will not happen again is a more important action than firing a couple of low-level employees. Pinning everything on them would have been a copout and a true evasion of responsibility.
You think this will not happen again because of some training? The men were sitting there. They weren't doing anything and the manager called the cops. For no reason other than that they were black. That isn't "unconscious bias", it's racism.
Granted, racism won't go away through firing someone, however, this unconscious bias training is simply going to distract from the real problem: racism.
 

Zemgirl

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You think this will not happen again because of some training? The men were sitting there. They weren't doing anything and the manager called the cops. For no reason other than that they were black. That isn't "unconscious bias", it's racism.
Granted, racism won't go away through firing someone, however, this unconscious bias training is simply going to distract from the real problem: racism.
Yes, I am aware of the details of what happened.

Most people do not want to think of themselves as racists; I bet the employees who called the cops would say the same about themselves. But when faced with black men doing something completely normal, they interpreted the situation as problematic - based on bias that was probably implicit rather than conscious and deliberate. A lot of human evaluation and judgment is based on such processes. Acknowledging this is important, and training people to recognize their biases can be valuable.

So yes, Starbucks is doing the right thing in working to train its workforce to be better and do better. Firing low-level people as a resolution is basically saying "they're responsible, we as an organization are not." That would be unacceptable.
 

Vash01

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No one was shot, fortunately, but two black men were arrested for sitting at a Starbucks, waiting for a friend. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-are-on-the-defensive/?utm_term=.fb42cb03a53b

This is beyond comprehensible and what is even less comprehensible to me is that no one seems to have gotten fired yet.
I read that the manager who called the cops is not working there anymore, and that it was by mutual agreement.

I am sure Starbucks is not the only place where this kind of stuff happens, but in a way it is good that the incidence is getting publicity because it happened at a Starbucks. Racism comes to the forefront (for the zillionth time).
 

ballettmaus

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Yes, I am aware of the details of what happened.

Most people do not want to think of themselves as racists; I bet the employees who called the cops would say the same about themselves. But when faced with black men doing something completely normal, they interpreted the situation as problematic - based on bias that was probably implicit rather than conscious and deliberate. A lot of human evaluation and judgment is based on such processes. Acknowledging this is important, and training people to recognize their biases can be valuable.
I would buy into unconscious bias if the manager had simply asked the two men to leave because they hadn't ordered anything or that he denied them the bathroom code because they hadn't ordered anything. Calling the cops without asking the two men to leave beforehand, however, no. Not buying for a moment that this was unconscious.
 

Zemgirl

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I would buy into unconscious bias if the manager had simply asked the two men to leave because they hadn't ordered anything or that he denied them the bathroom code because they hadn't ordered anything. Calling the cops without asking the two men to leave beforehand, however, no. Not buying for a moment that this was unconscious.
Calling the police was deliberate - though my understanding is that the men were asked to leave first, not that that's acceptable. The judgment that led to taking action? I think it was more likely an implicit bias, and the employee read something into the presence of two black men that he or she would never have read into other, non-black customers.

I honestly find it odd that people think firing a person is more important than Starbucks treating this as an organizational failure. The point is not to punish a low-level individual, it's to take responsibility as a company and make sure that others are trained to do better.
 

snoopy

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I am going to pull out this quote from the article because I know there are one or two (racist) people here reading who are thinking they should have left....but the point it is disparate treatment because......

The Starbucks official acknowledged that the incident is at odds with a common practice at Starbucks. The stores are “community” hubs, the official said, where people often drop in to use the WiFi or chat with friends without necessarily buying anything.
 

ballettmaus

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I honestly find it odd that people think firing a person is more important than Starbucks treating this as an organizational failure. The point is not to punish a low-level individual, it's to take responsibility as a company and make sure that others are trained to do better.
Why does one have to be more important than the other?
Sure, Starbucks needs to assume responsibility but the manager and police officers shouldn't get off scot-free. This wasn't just a failure of Starbucks as a company, but the manager failed as well as did the police officers. Neither were properly executing the job they were hired to do, in my opinion.
 

PrincessLeppard

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It was NOT a failure of Starbucks as a company, it was one manager acting like a moron. However, Starbucks is taking it seriously, and I appreciate their training on bias. Some of the teachers I work with could use that.
 
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I am going to pull out this quote from the article because I know there are one or two (racist) people here reading who are thinking they should have left....but the point it is disparate treatment because......
This is what makes me most angry about this incident besides the obvious POC issue. Coffee businesses have built their business model on inviting the public to use their shops as community meeting places. It's not like a busy restaurant with a line out the door or limited space to seat diners so everyone needs to be mindful about turnover. Starbucks wants us to meet our study partners, non-profit colleagues, church elders, etc. at their establishment; & drink a couple grande whatevers & eat a scone while we discuss the issue of the day. Now they're going to decide on a whim to micromanage exactly how many minutes or seconds we're allowed to wait for the others to arrive or demand exactly when we have to order coffee or food in relation to their arrival?

I understand having a sign on the bathroom that it's for paying customers only when there are circumstances (extremely busy tourist area, etc.) to limit it. Although for another example, using the same meeting place scenario, every Panera in my city has an open restroom with no restrictions, their employees aren't the bathroom police & I've never noticed a problem. Calling to report these men for trespassing because their other party hadn't arrived is over the top hypocrisy, particularly when the video showed empty tables. Even once it was done, the employee certainly could have contacted someone with the corp. for further guidance & deescalated the situation while the police were there but did not. Likewise, it doesn't sound like the police reasonably questioned the Starbucks employee about the situation or deescalated the situation either, so I see no reason to give them a pass for their irresponsible letter of the law approach.
 
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topaz

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As a POC, how is Starbucks going to "vet" employees who have racial biases? You really can't, ie. folks can lie on an application or during an interview process. However, this employee/manager did not see it was problematic to ask two African American persons to leave who were not disruptive in any way. This manager is not aware of racial profiling within society as a whole? For real.

I do not have any remorse for the ignorance of the manager. They resigned, so what. They can get another job without having any racial barriers.

Then the law enforcement has to handcuff them, whatever.

As an African American I don't get those who are oblivious to current racial and bigot climate of today.
 

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