Why Does This Keep Happening: The Police Thread

MacMadame

Doing all the things
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So for all the people who think that when the police shoot someone, they have no choice, here is an example of thinking about public safety differently:


ETA here's an article about them. It seems they act as a crime deterrent for shopkeepers too.

 

AxelAnnie

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Neither do guns. Or anything, for that matter. That seems like a strange reason not to use a tazer.
The reason is that the bullet would take down the girl with the knife and save the life of the girl being threatened.

People seem to overlook the fact that the quick action of the police saved the life on one girl.
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
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The reason is that the bullet would take down the girl with the knife and save the life of the girl being threatened.

People seem to overlook the fact that the quick action of the police saved the life on one girl.
Maybe that's because some of us think that the outcome is not clear. Yes, one girl was threatening a young lady with a knife. That doesn't mean she was doing to kill the other girl. You are deciding that her intent was to kill but we will never know what her intent was.
 

Yazmeen

Shake it then, shake it now, shake it forever
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I've been thinking back to all of those psychological experiments that were done in the 50's-70's that dealt with power and discrimination concepts-- like the Stanford Prison experiment, the one where subjects thought they were administering electrical shocks to other people and the blue-eyed vs. brown-eyed kids. Of course those experiments had a ton of problems, but it seems like we are stuck repeating them over and over in real life with just slightly different variations. It is a wonder that the human race made it this long. (I've been in a funk for the last month and may need to stop reading for a while to get back my groove.)
This from Jane Elliott, who created the "blue eye/brown eye" experiment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBJxdwNoA3I
 

Yazmeen

Shake it then, shake it now, shake it forever
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And this is the "blue eye/brown eye" experiment:

"On both days, children who were designated as inferior took on the look and behavior of genuinely inferior students, performing poorly on tests and other work. In contrast, the “superior” students — students who had been sweet and tolerant before the exercise — became mean-spirited and seemed to like discriminating against the “inferior” group."

 

AxelAnnie

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Maybe that's because some of us think that the outcome is not clear. Yes, one girl was threatening a young lady with a knife. That doesn't mean she was doing to kill the other girl. You are deciding that her intent was to kill but we will never know what her intent was.
True, we will never know what was in her heart. :rolleyes:
Let's see. She refused to heed the command by the police to drop the knife.

AP The officers arrived at a chaotic scene and had seconds to make a decision on how best to save the girl who was being threatened with the knife.

Maybe they should have tried singing KumBaya. They had 11 seconds.
Video

In a perfect world, none of this would have happened.

CNN
Angela Moore said two of her former foster children had come to her Columbus, Ohio, home Tuesday to celebrate her birthday when the young women and Ma'Khia bickered over housekeeping.
"It was over keeping the house clean," Moore said. "The older one told them to clean up the house because 'Mom doesn't like the house dirty,'" Moore recalled being told after she arrived home from work. "So that's how it all started."

To say the least, it was a chaotic situation. Armchair quarterbacking may be interesting but is not productive.

How about addressing the Foster Care system that failed Ma'Khia,or the entitled attitude of people who think that when the police ask you to get out of the car, it is just a suggestion. In fact, back up, drive away while dragging a policeman along with you.
Sky News Police officer dragged to his death by man driving a vehicle with stolen goods aboard.
Chicago Police Officer dragged by car while trying to make a stop.
 

Aussie Willy

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True, we will never know what was in her heart. :rolleyes:
Let's see. She refused to heed the command by the police to drop the knife.

AP The officers arrived at a chaotic scene and had seconds to make a decision on how best to save the girl who was being threatened with the knife.

Maybe they should have tried singing KumBaya. They had 11 seconds.
Video

In a perfect world, none of this would have happened.

CNN
Angela Moore said two of her former foster children had come to her Columbus, Ohio, home Tuesday to celebrate her birthday when the young women and Ma'Khia bickered over housekeeping.
"It was over keeping the house clean," Moore said. "The older one told them to clean up the house because 'Mom doesn't like the house dirty,'" Moore recalled being told after she arrived home from work. "So that's how it all started."

To say the least, it was a chaotic situation. Armchair quarterbacking may be interesting but is not productive.

How about addressing the Foster Care system that failed Ma'Khia,or the entitled attitude of people who think that when the police ask you to get out of the car, it is just a suggestion. In fact, back up, drive away while dragging a policeman along with you.
Sky News Police officer dragged to his death by man driving a vehicle with stolen goods aboard.
Chicago Police Officer dragged by car while trying to make a stop.
And they had other options like tasers. They did not have to use a gun. What is the greater risk?

Yes you are absolutely right. The problem started a long time before the actual incident. You could do an analysis of the situation from this person's life that led to this point. Which actually is why you don't shoot first and ask questions later.

And then what about the police? What about their training and resources? Why did they feel the only answer was to shoot someone with a gun? The shooting was a culmination of many years of systemic issues including an organisational culture that is not very creative in it's problem solving abilities.

Yet you are quite simplistic in the only answer is that the girl had to be killed to save the life of another when we could not predict what was going to happen as others have highlighted. Other countries would have dealt with the same situation and not taken the life of a young person because they can handle things better.
 

AxelAnnie

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And they had other options like tasers. They did not have to use a gun. What is the greater risk?

Yes you are absolutely right. The problem started a long time before the actual incident. You could do an analysis of the situation from this person's life that led to this point. Which actually is why you don't shoot first and ask questions later.
Tasers are not without risk.

APM Reports
Tasers as considerably less effective. Data from some of the largest police departments in the nation reveals that officers rate their Tasers as effective as little as 55 percent of the time, or just a little better than a coin flip. When Tasers fail to subdue someone, the results can be life-threatening — for police, and especially for the public.


APM Reports found more than 250 fatal police shootings nationwide between 2015 and 2017 that occurred after a Taser failed to incapacitate a suspect. In 106 of them, the suspect became more violent after receiving the electrical shock, according to a review of case files and media reports, suggesting the Taser may have made a bad situation worse.
You assume that the police thought a bullet was the only way to diffuse the situation. They called in on their way to the disturbance and discussed with their superiors how to handle the situation. The PTB said it will be a judgment call when you get there.

Police have to make a split-second decision. Are they always right - no. Are they mostly right -

I never said nor thought that the only answer was to kill someone wielding a lethal weapon who would not put it down when told to do so. Could a taser have worked? Maybe. But it also could have amped the girl with the knife and made her more dangerous.

Yet you are quite simplistic in the only answer is that the girl had to be killed to save the life of another when we could not predict what was going to happen as others have highlighted. Other countries would have dealt with the same situation and not taken the life of a young person because they can handle things better.
I think any conversation or discussion is better served by making the argument not statements like "You are quite simplistic" That does not forward any conversation and only serves to deflect discourse.

And yes, America has more shootings. We also have more people with guns, higher crime rates, and less respect for authority. And, we have to deal with what we have, not what someone else has, or what we wish we have.

I only pray and hope that shining the light on incidents like these, releasing videos, and jury verdicts will help to instill faith in both sides.
 

Artistic Skaters

Drawing Figures
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WP has this detailed article about foster care issues that may have affected Ma'khia Bryant and gives more information from her grandmother about what happened that afternoon:
Hammonds said Bryant called her on the afternoon of April 20 asking for help. A former foster child, now a woman in her 20s, had returned for a visit and was upset over the condition of the house, sparking an argument, Hammonds said. The woman then left the house but returned with at least two other women to continue the argument, Hammonds said. Hammonds said it was her other granddaughter — Bryant’s younger sister — who called 911 at 4:32 p.m.

“We’ve got these grown girls over here trying to fight us, trying to stab us, trying to put their hands on our grandma,” the girl told an operator, according to a recording of the call that police released after a public records request. “Get here now.”
Martin, the attorney for Bryant’s biological parents, said she does not believe that Ma’Khia and her sister were receiving adequate care. “It doesn’t sound like the children were being properly supervised, even within the moment,” said Martin, who also works as a court-appointed attorney in foster care cases. “Who were those girls at the house? How did they get there? What trauma was not being addressed in the home?”
 

Dragonlady

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Both tragic situations, but who is telling them it's a good idea to to resist police officers?

George Floyd wasn't resisting. Orlando Castille wasn't resisting. The black man who flagged down the police in the breakdown lane, and ended up dead, wasn't even under arrest - he was asking for help, but they shot him too. The list of black men shot in the back while running away, is endless including that poor man in the Wendy's parking lot.

It is illegal for the police to shoot you while you are running away. It is only legal for the police to shoot you to save their own life or the lives of someone else.
 

AxelAnnie

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And guns aren't? In fact I would think there are more risks associated with guns than tasers.
Of course. Obviously nothing is without risk. One response does not fit all. Solutions have to be situational.

We can wish things could be handled without deadly force. You can think a taser should have been used. And maybe it could've been. And maybe not. We can have opinions, ideals, scenarios. But we were not there. The call was not ours to make.

The tapes will be picked apart and analyzed. In this climate and with the Chauvin verdict is fresh in our minds as an example off the system working, it will be easier for us to build on.
 

FiveRinger

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Of course. Obviously nothing is without risk. One response does not fit all. Solutions have to be situational.

We can wish things could be handled without deadly force. You can think a taser should have been used. And maybe it could've been. And maybe not. We can have opinions, ideals, scenarios. But we were not there. The call was not ours to make.

The tapes will be picked apart and analyzed. In this climate and with the Chauvin verdict is fresh in our minds as an example off the system working, it will be easier for us to build on.
Are you serious? Chauvin is an example of severely flawed, systemically racist institutions. These aren't working systems. This is the most obvious case of police brutality we've ever seen--a modern day public lynching witnessed by all of us only because a 17 year old girl had the wherewithal to record a murder with her cell phone. That conviction would not have happened without that video and you claim that the system is working? Did you not hear about all of the complaints filed against Chauvin? Did you miss the fact that George Floyd's neck is not the only one Chauvin had his knee on? Surely you saw the false report he filed when George Floyd died? International protests are why Chauvin is in jail, not a working system. Stop burying your head in the sand. You are saying a flawed system works when a murderer spent years as an officer, training other officers to be just as heinous as he is.

The system that you claim is working might work for you and people like you, but for most of us, it's severely flawed and needs to be torn down and reassembled. Of course you don't see the flaws until they affect you and yours personally. Then it becomes a national emergency, i.e. voter fraud, (prescription) drug abuse, college admission fraud, affirmation action, etc.....Then your emergency all of a sudden becomes our emergency. Whatever.
 

AxelAnnie

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Are you serious? Chauvin is an example of severely flawed, systemically racist institutions. These aren't working systems. This is the most obvious case of police brutality we've ever seen--a modern day public lynching witnessed by all of us only because a 17 year old girl had the wherewithal to record a murder with her cell phone. That conviction would not have happened without that video and you claim that the system is working? Did you not hear about all of the complaints filed against Chauvin? Did you miss the fact that George Floyd's neck is not the only one Chauvin had his knee on? Surely you saw the false report he filed when George Floyd died? International protests are why Chauvin is in jail, not a working system. Stop burying your head in the sand. You are saying a flawed system works when a murderer spent years as an officer, training other officers to be just as heinous as he is.

The system that you claim is working might work for you and people like you, but for most of us, it's severely flawed and needs to be torn down and reassembled. Of course you don't see the flaws until they affect you and yours personally. Then it becomes a national emergency, i.e. voter fraud, (prescription) drug abuse, college admission fraud, affirmation action, etc.....Then your emergency all of a sudden becomes our emergency. Whatever.
😴 :EVILLE: :wall:
 

Doggygirl

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From the local "Patch" news this morning... https://patch.com/illinois/joliet/w...aily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter

Here is another example of systemic problems in policing in my local area, and I'm guessing many other areas.

1. Local cop previously arrested TWICE for domestic violence (and the excerpt from his ex-wife's order of protection hearing describes a violent man / policeman :eek:).
2. Local cop recommended for termination by local police chief, but police chief does not follow procedure to actually terminate him, which allows officer to stay on the payroll indefinitely while not working. (one of many tricks the local PD uses to protect officers who should not be protected from the consequences of their actions)
3. Local cop is arrested a third time by Chicago police. (we do not yet know what the arrest was for)
4. Mean time, the local police chief who orchestrated the protection for this, and many other shenanigans, was pressured to resign. He was allowed to retire, and 1 day before his retirement, he was given a significant pay increase which served to bump up his pension payment for life.

If this was a one time situation, I wouldn't be outraged. But I AM outraged because this is just another example of the reports from our local PD that happen all the time. Tell me this "good ol' boy" network of protection doesn't foster a climate that is ripe for abuse, racism, etc.

Here is another local story from a couple years ago. Young woman is shot in her apartment. Her cop ex-boyfriend is in her apartment when it happens. Her death is quickly ruled a suicide. :eek: :eek: :eek: Many subsequent articles suggesting there was never a thorough investigation of this officer, that gun residue evidence was ignored and/or "lost", etc. etc. Her family is pursuing this in civil court for wrongful death. But this is another tragic example of how the protectionist police culture causes so much harm. https://patch.com/illinois/joliet/samantha-harers-death-75-unanswered-questions

AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
 
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DORISPULASKI

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Another article on what has somewhat worked in policing:

Community Buy In

Abandoning face to face enforcement of minor infractions

Abandoning stops for marijuana use

What did not work was :

Trying to fix towns by using initiatives imposed from Washington while leaving police unions intact.
 

AxelAnnie

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@Doggygirl

Awful! Disgusting! Should never have happened. Hopefully revealing this information will continue to pull the veil on the entire thing.
Drs. have the same protection program going. My Sister's husband, a surgeon, would often operate while drunk. People knew but helped him hide it. He eventually had his license pulled.

Any "group" are, IMO as guilty as the people they are covering for. These groups include child abuse, drug abuse, domestic violence.
 

AxelAnnie

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Holy Crap! Not sure where this belongs. There is a press conference being held in Houston. They just completed a raid on a suburban home and find 91 people inside! Lots of ********* symptoms.

They think it part of a human trafficking ring. Undoubtedly (given it is close to the border) this is an example of bad people coming across our porous border to set up illegal businesses up here.

A fine example of why we need border patrol who can manage who comes in, where they go, and why they are here.
 

jenny12

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That's racist.


And with good satire, there is always an element of truth. The conviction of one police officer does not change the whole system of policing. There’s still a long way to go. It’s just like the people who claimed the election of President Obama was enough to prove that America is not a racist country.
 

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