What is happening at work?

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
Messages
22,680
Finally got a laptop so working from home today. Good thing I have my monitors and docking station from when I used to work from home with my previous job.
 

skatfan

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,461
Yes, what's happening in Italy and New York hospitals is terrible, but so is what happens every day in New Delhi, Mumbai, and other cities where the lockdown is now the difference between being able to feed a family and not. Maybe people in their comfortable homes should think of that, too.

If we tried a different version of the lockdown, would we have the same or not-dissimilar numbers of people in Milan and New York hospitals, but fewer people starving to death in India, fewer than 3.3 million people in the US losing their jobs, and less than $2 trillion in new debt to repay? I think yes, absolutely. There's too much group-think and confirmation bias, and too little consideration of other sources, like the relatively ignored Oxford study (compared to the Imperial College study). The media sensationalism isn't helping either. Trump has given everyone two weeks to figure out that middle ground (to 60% public approval). I'm supportive and hopeful.
GREAT. I'll love have my Easter service full to standing room only and causing deaths in my older, immunocompromised congregation. After all, what would Jesus do? Ignore those bodies in the corner? Again, I don't think we are built to do that, but you do you.

I'm concerned, though not surprised, that it has become taboo to question anything. People whisper, send private messages, etc. Very much in the same way that people who supported Trump or Brexit feel that they can't voice them in public society due to the PC police. (Caveat: I did not support Trump or Brexit.) Real and important dialogue is being silenced. Meanwhile, we have cops giving tickets to anyone they think is "not essential," patrolling the neighborhoods, drones posting pictures of people at parks to shame them into staying at home, relaxed rules on mobile phone providers sharing your data with the government, and all kinds of Big Brother initiatives marching in on a Trojan horse.
Huh? We question everything here. Your post is precisely that.
Yes, crowding at parks is a really bad idea.
People thinking rules don't apply to them is our usual stupid response with death as a possibility for many others.
If it looks like it was a Trojan horse, we have succeeded - prevention is like that. You don't know exactly what you've prevented.

As for my elderly relatives, none of them is scared of this virus. My 90-year-old grandfather thinks the Texas lieutenant governor is right, and my 95-year-old cousin (or whatever he is) just wants to go to the casino, virus be damned. Both of their attitudes are basically "let it rip; whoever will die will die." But both of them have focused on living life, not avoiding death; they've also lived through world wars; both fought in combat; one was in a plane crash; etc. They'd rather die doing something they enjoy v. be stuck at home unable to see anyone or do anything. Neither is good with technology. Neither can really cook. Both are hard of hearing and have difficulties even talking on the phone. Their contact with the outside world is basically gone. For them, life under these restrictions is essentially sitting around waiting to die anyway. And, if they do die, it may be days or weeks for anyone to even realize they're gone.
If their actions didn't mean additional danger for others, I'd buy your argument. But no, if they did get the virus, they'd get care, others would be exposed and it could harm others. Your dad apparently doesn't want to take the risk of working in a public place.

Exhibit A: New Orleans and Mardi Gras. What fun that was everyone they were "living life!" (Yes, I know it was before we were worried about the virus in most places) Now the city is falling to its knees with spiking cases. But wow, the city should stay open as a sensible response?

I'll continue to hope for eased restrictions that give people sensible choices, while respecting the wishes of (and offering assistance to) those who wish to continue to quarantine for medical, risk, or other reasons.
I personally think we've been given the sensible choice for the good of the community (no options are very appealing) and you don't like it. Fair enough. I don't like having to close my church, rework my entire job and still with the thought in the back of my mind that this church will take a big hit in the longer run. But I think it's the right call.
 

skatfan

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,461
My office's pre-emptive response was to state that the janitors are cleaning those surfaces on a schedule. Never mind that people enter and exit spaces at any time. The executive staff's handling of all of this from the start has been frustrating and less than ideal.
Sounds like the CEO or President of Southwest Airlines touting that they would deeply sanitize their cabins each night. (Like, they didn't before?) and just sliding over the fact that each seat turns over 5 times or so a day, let alone the bathrooms issue.
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
Messages
61,905
I wrote a long reply to Louis, but I deleted it because it's not worth it. I'll tell my 21 year old student who is freaking out because she tested positive that it's OK if she dies because those masses in India need to go back to work so the stock market will stabilize and people can make more money. I'm sure she'll understand. She is in healthcare after all.
 

once_upon

New condo owner
Messages
13,392
I wrote a long reply to Louis, but I deleted it because it's not worth it. I'll tell my 21 year old student who is freaking out because she tested positive that it's OK if she dies because those masses in India need to go back to work so the stock market will stabilize and people can make more money. I'm sure she'll understand. She is in healthcare after all.
And I'm sure he will be ok with a no CPR action on him should he require hospitalization. After all everyone is expendable when it comes to economy
 

MacMadame

My G.O.A.T is better than your G.O.A.T.
Staff member
Messages
32,230
I wrote a long reply to Louis, but I deleted it because it's not worth it. I'll tell my 21 year old student who is freaking out because she tested positive that it's OK if she dies because those masses in India need to go back to work so the stock market will stabilize and people can make more money. I'm sure she'll understand. She is in healthcare after all.
I started on one, but then I remembered what @skatfan said about him not wanting his dad to go back to his grocery job because it was too dangerous and I put him on ignore. I'm sure my Blood Pressure thanks me.

As I say to all those GOP legislators saying that Grandparents want to sacrifice their lives for their grandkids: you first!
 

Amy L

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,339
As I say to all those GOP legislators saying that Grandparents want to sacrifice their lives for their grandkids: you first!
My mom, living in Texas and a lifelong Reuplican, had the same reaction to Lt. Gov. Patrick. Her grandkids don't live in Texas, so can she go in the back of the line in the grandparent death march??
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
Messages
61,905
I've seen many patients in the hospital who right up till they did whatever they did to get there who had that attitude that it wasn't their problem, nobody could tell them what to do, blah, blah, blah. If others have to die, so be it. Until it happens to them and they're begging everyone to not let them die. They don't care about others, but sure as hell expect people to care about them when they get sick. They make the worst patients. And, as soon as they feel better, they go right back to what they were doing before. Every health care worker knows exactly the patients I'm talking about. We've all had them. They are the Nancy Kerrigan's wailing whyyyyyyyy me! It should be someone else. One thing about a little bit of replicating RNA is it doesn't give a flying feck who the host is.
 

Kasey

Fan of many, uber of none
Messages
15,425
Our job initially was assigning only 4 hour shifts in the ** units, then you rotate out. That's changed now (things are changing a few times a day), and last night was my first full 12 hour shift in the ICU. I'm exhausted, with the constant hissing of the PAPR mask in my face and ears (we only have N95s for ED respiratory tent staff), and the lack of PPE. ONE surgical gown a shift (single use gown usually) for the ** positive patients. NO gown, but a scrub jacket on backwards over hospital scrubs, for the "rule out" patients. One single use face mask to wear in the rest of the unit, which usually is to be changed out at least every 4 hours. It's supposed to be one PAPR, one patient; but there aren't enough PAPRs, so we are cleaning them with bleach and wearing them into other, rule-out patient rooms. Not even enough shoe covers. It SUCKS to be in healthcare right now, and I love my job and my profession, but this is bullsh*t.

**Not sure why part of that is bolded, since I didn't do it, but I don't know how to fix it. Oh well.
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
Messages
61,905
Our job initially was assigning only 4 hour shifts in the ** units, then you rotate out. That's changed now (things are changing a few times a day), and last night was my first full 12 hour shift in the ICU. I'm exhausted, with the constant hissing of the PAPR mask in my face and ears (we only have N95s for ED respiratory tent staff), and the lack of PPE. ONE surgical gown a shift (single use gown usually) for the ** positive patients. NO gown, but a scrub jacket on backwards over hospital scrubs, for the "rule out" patients. One single use face mask to wear in the rest of the unit, which usually is to be changed out at least every 4 hours. It's supposed to be one PAPR, one patient; but there aren't enough PAPRs, so we are cleaning them with bleach and wearing them into other, rule-out patient rooms. Not even enough shoe covers. It SUCKS to be in healthcare right now, and I love my job and my profession, but this is bullsh*t.

**Not sure why part of that is bolded, since I didn't do it, but I don't know how to fix it. Oh well.
That's the same protocol our hospital is following. They went from we have plenty of supplies to begging the public for help in a week. The budget for PPE was based on last year uses. They've quadrupled that number in two weeks. Our administration is very conservative and fiscally responsible, but nobody planned for this.
 

MacMadame

My G.O.A.T is better than your G.O.A.T.
Staff member
Messages
32,230
**Not sure why part of that is bolded, since I didn't do it, but I don't know how to fix it. Oh well.
It's because of the ****. It's interpreting them as "put bold in here"

ETA They say Apple is donating 10 million N95 masks. that's right 10 MILLION. WTF is Apple doing with that many N95 masks?
 

Aceon6

Isolating from mean people
Messages
19,949
No idea. But they do business in China, and the masks are made in China.
Which is one of the reasons that it’s taking so long. I can just hear the discussions in Chinese businesses and regulatory bodies... “The US government will pay $500/case. The French say $450. Screw it, send them to France.“
 

GarrAargHrumph

I can kill you with my brain
Messages
18,861
It's because of the ****. It's interpreting them as "put bold in here"

ETA They say Apple is donating 10 million N95 masks. that's right 10 MILLION. WTF is Apple doing with that many N95 masks?
I understand that companies in California are required to keep a certain number (depends on number of employees) of N95 masks on hand in case of wildfires. In addition to the N95 masks that the state of California required Apple to keep on hand, Apple may also have done its own risk assessments re: natural disasters, and had masks in storage based on the math they did. They're also probably pulling masks from their cleanrooms and etc.

Generally speaking, the large companies I've worked for have plans for large scale disasters, and have supplies on hand to help the company get through such things (we called them "business continuity plans"), including things like masks, water and food. When I've worked for companies that have such plans, they usually plan, and stock, for worst case. So assuming Apple is similar to my companies, they would have a ton of masks, purchased well in advance of this situation - because they've planned for the worst. So these masks weren't taken from current stock that should have gone to hospitals - they were purchased months or even years ago. But they'll be added to current stock now. It's a net plus.
 

MacMadame

My G.O.A.T is better than your G.O.A.T.
Staff member
Messages
32,230
So these masks weren't taken from current stock that should have gone to hospitals -
I didn't think they were. But that's way more than they have employees. It just seems like a crazy number to me. Even if it ends up working out for the Healthcare places they donate them.

Also, if Apple has 10 million, why doesn't the Federal Government have 100 million? Or more??
 

snoopy

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,914
Also, if Apple has 10 million, why doesn't the Federal Government have 100 million? Or more??
Something is fishy sounding with the apple story. Whomever suggested, Ace I think, that apple just had the right connections to buy them from China was probably correct. China is making money off of this. Both Italy and Spain made big equipment purchases from China too.

But clearly, if someone wanted to take Americans out, they don’t need a nuke. Just some well placed biological weapons would do it.
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,700
I am glad there are people and companies that have better connections than our president with a country that makes the protective equipment & has made it through this nightmare on their home soil. The whole world is facing this challenge, and we can all afford to learn from each other.

Having said that, people need the protection now.

And having said that, this is not what is going on at my work. (I have one more day of self-quarantine and one more day worth of a 6-credit course to complete. I was hoping to finish the class today and have time to clean, but :shuffle:).
 

MacMadame

My G.O.A.T is better than your G.O.A.T.
Staff member
Messages
32,230
But clearly, if someone wanted to take Americans out, they don’t need a nuke. Just some well placed biological weapons would do it.
Considering how many people in China and their allies died, it wasn't particularly "well placed" in this case.
 

Tony Wheeler

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,688
I've seen many patients in the hospital who right up till they did whatever they did to get there who had that attitude that it wasn't their problem, nobody could tell them what to do, blah, blah, blah. If others have to die, so be it. Until it happens to them and they're begging everyone to not let them die. They don't care about others, but sure as hell expect people to care about them when they get sick. They make the worst patients. And, as soon as they feel better, they go right back to what they were doing before. Every health care worker knows exactly the patients I'm talking about. We've all had them. They are the Nancy Kerrigan's wailing whyyyyyyyy me! It should be someone else. One thing about a little bit of replicating RNA is it doesn't give a flying feck who the host is.
There's a lot of that here, too.

Someone who was known in the Miami community passed away today from it though, at age 39. He was in great physical shape. I hope it's the wake-up call that so many people in the bubble desperately need.
 

snoopy

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,914
Considering how many people in China and their allies died, it wasn't particularly "well placed" in this case.
I wasn’t saying they placed it but the ********* revealed a weakness. Plus someone would have to place it more targeted in the us population and it would have to be something more severe. But the right methods could produce a devastating result.
 

Japanfan

Well-Known Member
Messages
22,708
Yes, what's happening in Italy and New York hospitals is terrible, but so is what happens every day in New Delhi, Mumbai, and other cities where the lockdown is now the difference between being able to feed a family and not. Maybe people in their comfortable homes should think of that, too.

If we tried a different version of the lockdown, would we have the same or not-dissimilar numbers of people in Milan and New York hospitals, but fewer people starving to death in India, fewer than 3.3 million people in the US losing their jobs, and less than $2 trillion in new debt to repay? I think yes, absolutely. There's too much group-think and confirmation bias, and too little consideration of other sources, like the relatively ignored Oxford study (compared to the Imperial College study).
So what alternate version of the lockdown would you recommend?

Quite frankly I'm not sure what your point is. The point of the lockdown is to protect people from getting sick and save lives. Yes, it's horrible that people are starving to death in India due to a lack of income. Dying of the virus would probably be quicker. The problem is that the virus is contagious and would easily spread to people who aren't starving to death or uninfected poor and hungry folks. The horrific implications of that are obvious.
 
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PRlady

Nerdy flack
Messages
34,561
It’s so easy to see that India, where basic sanitation is unavailable in rural and poor urban areas, and where people are crowded together, could lose millions of people if the virus is rampant. I’m no Modi fan but he did the right thing. You can’t run a call center with ghosts.
 

Louis

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,784
And I'm sure he will be ok with a no CPR action on him should he require hospitalization.
Yup, I'm completely fine with that. People can take the risk and accept the consequences, or not. I'm well aware of the limitations of the medical system right now.

Since we keep mentioning my dad - statistically, he is in the group who would most likely need prolonged time on a ventilator. I think it's a good idea for him not to take risks, both for his own safety and out of respect for the medical system. Yes, I know young people die, too, but the rates are far lower and the risk is far less.

So what version of the lockdown would use recommend?

Quite frankly I'm not sure what your point is. The point of the lockdown is to protect people from getting sick and save lives.
The lock down may be causing more damage than it's preventing - people are dying from other things; there is long-term damage to people's financial, mental, and physical well-being that will have continued snowball effects perhaps for decades; etc. The scientific evidence for this lockdown is far shakier than people want to admit. The studies behind it are already being discredited. The world has overreacted, with grave consequences, and it's time to loosen the restrictions in most places.
 
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snoopy

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,914
The lock down may be causing more damage than it's preventing - people are dying from other things;
What evidence do you have of this?

I do agree that the death rates aren't panning out to be as high as projected, except in Italy and Spain. But I think Italy is what caused all the other governments to freak. I don't know what happened there but absent Italy I don't thing governments would have went on lockdowns. The lockdowns were to prevent more Italys.
 

Japanfan

Well-Known Member
Messages
22,708
The lock down may be causing more damage than it's preventing - people are dying from other things; there is long-term damage to people's financial, mental, and physical well-being that will have continued snowball effects perhaps for decades; etc. The scientific evidence for this lockdown is far shakier than people want to admit. The studies behind it are already being discredited. The world has overreacted, with grave consequences, and it's time to loosen the restrictions in most places.
I'll ask again: what alternative do you recommend?

There's evidence that the beer burden is contagious and potentially deadly. How much more evidence of a need for social distancing do you need? Is everyone recommending it lying? Relaxing restrictions = spreading the virus more quickly.

Look at the number of sick people and number of deaths, then please provide your argument as to the world having overreacted.

I may not agree with you on a number of issues, but usually I respect your positions. In this case, I don't understand where you are coming from at all.
 

Louis

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,784
I wasn’t saying they placed it but the ********* revealed a weakness. Plus someone would have to place it more targeted in the us population and it would have to be something more severe. But the right methods could produce a devastating result.
People are also assuming China has the same regard for human life, an assumption I find questionable. (If people think I'm cold....)

What evidence do you have of this?
It's a fair question, and I don't think we'll fully know the answer for awhile. What are the consequences of being it near-impossible to get appointments for anything other than *********-19 at the moment, with even cancer surgeries postponed? How are deaths in India slums being reported?

Unfortunately, this has become a politicized argument, and virtually the only people who agree with me are on the far right. I hate posting obviously partisan things, when I normally don't agree with these people, but I do think think they're partially right. One of the least bad articles is here, with rules of thumb of how many more suicides, etc. we will see, and how the economic impact may cause death:

As the virus spreads to poor countries, like India, I see the trade-offs as getting even harder.

But I think Italy is what caused all the other governments to freak. I don't know what happened there but absent Italy I don't thing governments would have went on lockdowns. The lockdowns were to prevent more Italys.
Southern Italy STILL has very low rates of infection. Unfortunately, I think the flawed Lombardy lockdown has caused everyone to think that these massive, wide-scale lockdowns are the only way to prevent the virus. What Lomdardy initially tried to do was similar to the China strategy, except it wasn't implemented well. What Italy and other countries have now done go far beyond China in terms of scope, but with significantly less depth.
 

Prancer

Needs More Sleep
Staff member
Messages
49,143
I have no doubt that there will be deaths from the economic collapse. None.

But what would you consider a viable alternative?
 
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