What does re-opening look like?

Dave of the North

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5,284
We're sort of in phase yellow here in NB, I think, but there seems to be two parts to it. Hairdressers etc opened this week (my wife got hers done) and gyms, etc were supposed next week but that got pushed out a week because of the cluster in Campbellton caused by the idiot doctor who went to Quebec and caught YKW, and didn't self-isolate when he came back (so far 8 people have caught it from him).

I'll probably wait a couple of weeks before going back to the gym. I've been doing some walking and also some of the YMCA you tube exercise videos.

One of the other bridge club managers was thinking we could possible go back to face-to-face bridge in July, but I'm anticipating people will be nervous about it and will want to wait longer than that. I'm not sure if any clubs have opened up yet in the states that are farther along in the re-opening process.

Our social bridge group (4 couples) was going to get together tomorrow night but one of them came down with diarrhea and vomiting so we've pushed that out for two weeks.
 

Dobre

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7,279
My friend's description of her conversation with a student

My friend to the student via the phone: You can do this. I think you can answer this question. Let's read it, shall we? It's only true or false.

My friend to me later that week: Did she answer the question? Nooo.

My theory on the problem in this scenario:
My friend is unable to stand at said student's shoulder while giving her the supportive I-am-your-best-most-supportive-teacher look while said student types in "true" or "false" and pushes the send button. Or to give said student the stern you-are-not-leaving-the-classroom-until-you-hit-send look. Or to bribe said student with goldfish crackers to get her to frigging type in one word and push send. Or to hold said student in from recess until the word "send" has been pushed.

The difference between public education for everyone vs. online learning for a student that has elected to take a distance learning course & paid for the privilege.

Then again, it could just be that this is after Memorial Day, and most students go backwards when it comes to learning after Memorial Day. (The sun is shining. Shorts & sandals are walking the walk. Sixth graders are all twitterpainted. And how could anyone possibly answer a true or false question and hit send?)
 

Dobre

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7,279
Half of Newly Diagnosed ******** Cases in Washington are in People Under 40
https://tinyurl.com/y7828rko

There is an interesting line graph showing the change in the number of diagnosis for different age levels in Washington State over the course of the epidemic there.

The article hypothesizes that this change is associated with how well people are social distancing now at different age levels.

I had a couple other thoughts to go with that possibility:
1. The ***** clearly seems to have moved into the age levels that serve the most in the workforce. (It has moved into the food industry in Washington).
2. Tests were not available earlier on in WA to people who did not have pretty serious symptoms so it seems highly likely there were more young people with the ***** early on than is reflected in this graph; but the fact that the line has gone down among the elderly is interesting.

Thank God.
Agreed.
 
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MacMadame

Staying at home
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34,687
I shouted when I read the notification about the ruling!

I mean it was obvious to the most casual observer of the law that churches weren't being discriminated against. If anything, they were being given special treatment compared to other high-risk activities that are still forbidden. But the world has been so crazy lately and so partisan that I wasn't sure the Supreme Court would do the right thing. And that's sad.

Btw, at today's briefing, Governor Newsome said that counties who are ready can move into Stage 3. I think I forgot to say that earlier.
 

Louis

Private citizen
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14,349
You argued against the shutdown meant to save lives and protect the vulnerable and elderly from a deadly disease citing high unemployment numbers, mental health concerns and the economic impact and yet, you advocate for doing something that would put millions of people out of work, affect the mental health of everyone involved and would negatively impact the economy. That makes it very hard for me to believe that the concern you voiced before was genuine.
I believe:
1) Learning is best done in person
2) Schools should be open, and should've always been open
3) There is very little demonstrated risk (child to grandparent transmission is nearly fiction)

That said, I also believe:
4) Those who do in-person education are not necessarily qualified to do online education
5) Online education should cost less
6) The job of an online educator v. an in-person educator is an entirely different job

If schools are likely to remain shut, we don't need teachers in the traditional sense. Better to furlough them. Keeping them employed is only paying high-wage workers to do lower-wage work, when the lower-wage worker (who is actually trained on what he/she is doing) may even perform better.

And FWIW the attitudes that some here have toward India or the Philippines are somewhere between outdated and racist. As a data person, I can tell you that the Philippines in particular often outperforms US domestic locations on customer satisfaction metrics. I've been extremely impressed at the quality of graduates from universities in the Philippines.
 

hanca

Values her privacy
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9,974
French don't like being told what to do. It's a violation of their freedom rights 🙄.
@Louis , maybe that’s where you went wrong. It is not that you chose the wrong accommodation, you chose the wrong country! It seems to me that France is a natural match for you. You are trying to fit into a country who is proud of having stiff upper lip, pretending that everything is alright (even when it isn’t) and ‘I mustn’t grumble’ attitude, which you clearly struggle with.
 
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Theatregirl1122

Needs a nap
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22,470
Children can either be taught remotely by someone cowering in their expensive home, costing taxpayers $250k+ a year (when all benefits, entitlements, etc.) are taken into account, or they can be remotely by someone earning $20k a year. Without in-person education, why pay local teachers or local teacher salaries?
Being as you have literally no idea what value schools and teachers add to the health and well being of students along with their education, I can’t say your opinion has much weight.

One of us may be cowering at home being paid a comically overinflated salary to live in a fancy place and take fancy vacations well above the value that we ultimately add to the future of the world, but I have no concern that it might be me.
 

canbelto

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,595
I believe:
1) Learning is best done in person
2) Schools should be open, and should've always been open
3) There is very little demonstrated risk (child to grandparent transmission is nearly fiction)

That said, I also believe:
4) Those who do in-person education are not necessarily qualified to do online education
5) Online education should cost less
6) The job of an online educator v. an in-person educator is an entirely different job

If schools are likely to remain shut, we don't need teachers in the traditional sense. Better to furlough them. Keeping them employed is only paying high-wage workers to do lower-wage work, when the lower-wage worker (who is actually trained on what he/she is doing) may even perform better.

And FWIW the attitudes that some here have toward India or the Philippines are somewhere between outdated and racist. As a data person, I can tell you that the Philippines in particular often outperforms US domestic locations on customer satisfaction metrics. I've been extremely impressed at the quality of graduates from universities in the Philippines.
So ... your response to 25% unemployment levels is ... MORE UNEMPLOYMENT. You realize teachers make up a big portion of the work force? And most of us are not "cowering in wealth."

I really hope that crud ends and you get to leave your studio flat. Because you're really losing your marbles.
 

Theatregirl1122

Needs a nap
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22,470
I think it’s important that people who are not in schools understand what a drastic thing it is for schools to be closed. What a major impact it has on students. I am concerned about it because I do not think that re-opening is coming anytime soon. Even people who are pushing for reopening mostly seem to understand that schools are a large gathering and that it is very difficult to keep people protected in a gathering that large on a day-to-day basis.

Right now, without a vaccine, school as normal is unimaginable. The risk is huge. There are tons of discussions being had about a return to school, but no decisions because no one knows what September will be. Suggestions include only half the students being in school at a time and the other half doing distance learning and then switching. This is reasonable in elementary because you can go by grade or class, but kind of mind boggling for high school. I don’t teach a single class that only has one grade in it and the students intermingle so much that dividing them would be almost impossible.

Another suggestion is that high students could go to school but stay in one room with one teacher all day. So they’d basically be doing distance learning, but they’d be physically present to help them actually focus on their learning.

Some people think we will still be doing distance teaching like we are now, which is terrifying to teachers, because right now we’ve been able to cover some of the problems of distance learning in this situation by knowing our kids. When kid A stopped doing any work, I knew not to be very worried because he never really did any work, so the fact that he was doing basically none now was no surprise. I contacted him and followed up with him, but I wasn’t surprised. When kid B stopped doing any work, I knew that something was very wrong because kid B is one of my top students and had never missed an assignment. I knew that I needed to be worried for her, and in fact, something was very wrong.

The fact that I already knew my kids gives also makes them more likely to send me emails and ask questions on video and tell me when something is going on. As teachers, we are afraid to do this again but with a new set of kids we don’t know, because it’ll be much harder for them to tell us if they aren’t doing well or if something is going wrong at home. And I won’t know what is concerning behavior from which kids.

And the kids are definitely not really thriving being cut off from their usual level of social interaction. Just like adults, there are some kids for whom this is actually working out. A subset of students who used to spend all of their time wandering the halls with their friends. Without that as an option, some of them have started actually getting work done. Others, again like many adults, continue to do what they need to do but tell me that they hate it. They miss their friends and teachers and they miss the structure of school.

But others are really struggling. I have an A+ student who hasn’t turned in a single assignment since school was cancelled. I’ve tried to contact him and his parents numerous times, his counselors have tried, admin has tried, and we don’t get much. And it makes me feel so helpless. And I have several of these stories. I get emails from kids who are absolutely panicking fairly often. I had one kid hospitalized for mental health. Many have lost grandparents. Many are working and illegal number of hours to help support families. (or just because companies seem to have decided there are no labor laws right now?)

And this is in high school where my kids actually can work autonomously. And none of that even touches on what the teachers are feeling.

There’s such a world of difference between a specific subset of students choosing to do online schooling in an environment designed for online schooling and just sending every child in the country into that environment.

I’m not an advocate for going back before it’s safe. This is not an argument for why we need to go back ASAP. Schools could easily become the epicenter of a massive outbreak, and no one wants that. But I wanted to explain what school is like right now a little. How cutting every student in the country off from the school support system really turns out. Because education in vital, but school is also more than education.
 

Prancer

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That said, I also believe:
4) Those who do in-person education are not necessarily qualified to do online education
5) Online education should cost less
6) The job of an online educator v. an in-person educator is an entirely different job
I agree that the skillset required is different, although I don't know that it's entirely different. Most of the actual teaching I do is feedback on assignments, which I do regardless of delivery and do in the same general way.

But online education is not, as most people assume, cheaper for the school:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/derekn...ally-higher-for-online-programs/#7dc68324f11a


It's also more work for me as faculty, even when the course is prepared. Give me a classroom where the interaction is immediate and I can see faces any day. Lecturing is so much easier. Advising students is so much easier. Identifying student problems is so much easier. Addressing student problems is so much easier. Engaging students is so much easier.
 

overedge

G.O.A.T.
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There is also the reality that drop-out and non-completion rates in online university courses are generally higher than they are at "traditional" universities.

Yes, online learning is more flexible in that you can do it when it is convenient for you. But a lot of students don't realize that an online course usually has the same amount of work as a classroom course, and it also has deadlines. And "convenient for you" is kind of different if you have to fit work and household responsibilities around the course requirements.

Plus, some people learn better and are more motivated in a structured classroom setting with other students. It can take a fair amount of self-discipline to work on a course on your own at home. You don't get all of the ideas or insights that you might get from discussions in class. Not to mention the practical problems that others have pointed out, like reliable Internet access, adequate computer equipment, and so on.

Online learning is not for everyone.
 
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MacMadame

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An article about how this has impacted tourism in Europe and also how some American Ex-pats are re-evaluating their situation.

 

Prancer

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My mom went from spending 20 hours a week teaching to spending 50 when her university went online.
That sounds about right.

I worked CONSTANTLY in March, April, and most of May. Like at one point I stayed up until 5am on a Sunday getting work ready for students to have Monday.
This, too. I scramble all the time trying to make things work.

But let's talk about something besides the Louis world view. If I never read the term "crouching in place" again, it will be too soon. It always makes me think of a squat toilet.

Some options:

What Comes Next: Life Beyond *********: Quotes and links from a collection of articles about ways to move ahead

How Fitness Will Change Forever

Don’t Expect A Quick Recovery. Our Survey Of Economists Says It Will Likely Take Years.

3 Behavioral Trends That Will Reshape Our Post-********* World

New threat to the economy: Americans are saving like it's the 1980s

Pick one, any one.
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,279
I read this one. Yes, some of these are plausible trends. I think there is a positive side to the "if people fear density" outlook though. Making things less dense can also create jobs. Meat-packing plants may need more space, more buildings, and therefore, more construction. Plus, the prioritization of smaller class sizes could ultimately create a desire for more classrooms and/or more jobs in the long run.
 

ballettmaus

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14,161
I believe:
1) Learning is best done in person
2) Schools should be open, and should've always been open
3) There is very little demonstrated risk (child to grandparent transmission is nearly fiction)
Scientists and doctors who currently work on research/are involved with the response disagree with #2 and #3.


If schools are likely to remain shut,
But schools are not going to remain shut. As a matter-of-fact, a number of European countries have already reopened schools again.


we don't need teachers in the traditional sense. Better to furlough them. Keeping them employed is only paying high-wage workers to do lower-wage work, when the lower-wage worker (who is actually trained on what he/she is doing) may even perform better.
How many teachers trained specifically to do online teaching and trained to teach the respective age-groups online, are out there? (ETA: And it still doesn't explain why you don't mind putting teachers out of work when you don't want businesses to shut down because it means that people lose their jobs).


And FWIW the attitudes that some here have toward India or the Philippines are somewhere between outdated and racist. As a data person, I can tell you that the Philippines in particular often outperforms US domestic locations on customer satisfaction metrics. I've been extremely impressed at the quality of graduates from universities in the Philippines.
Are the people you're talking about the ones who answer phones in call centers? It sounds like they'd aim for better paid jobs.
That aside, the quality of graduates has nothing to do with the fact that you'd need people who speak the language like a native speaker and can teach the language like a native speaker. And they don't only need to teach German/French/Greek/Spanish etc, they also need to be able to teach every other subject in the respective language. And they need to be able to teach a foreign language to foreign students. They'd also need to be able to deal with migrant kids. In German that means teach so-called "welcome classes" which are designed to help integrate students.
I doubt that anyone who has the skill to do that would work a low-wage job.

But if you think in-person teaching is the best option, I don't even know why we're discussing this ;)
 
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ballettmaus

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14,161
Yes, I read his posts and understood them perfectly well.
Then I'm missing something. Firing teachers is going to add to the unemployment numbers. And if one wants to sell off school buildings then I don't take that to mean that one plans to go back to in-person teaching once it's safe to do so. But even if I misinterpreted that part then Louis still wants to put more people out of work right now while arguing that the economy shouldn't have shut down because so many people lost their jobs. That doesn't make sense to me.
 

MacMadame

Staying at home
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34,687
And it still doesn't explain why you don't mind putting teachers out of work when you don't want businesses to shut down because it means that people lose their jobs).
It's because none of this is really rational. Like saying that the people dying are largely people who were just going to die in 5 years anyway in one breath and in the other bemoaning that "Some of these businesses will never reopen!" as if that's completely unacceptable for businesses that were probably going to die anyway to also die.

Of course, the people saying this aren't the only once holding contradictory views. It's just that hearing "some of these businesses will never re-open" for the 20th time (here and elsewhere) set me off. 🤷‍♀️

I'm somewhat tired of repeating myself but I still haven't heard a good argument against the idea that a lockdown buys time and causes less carnage (both to people and the economy) than not locking down.

The only reason I can see for why this is such a bad idea is that several countries (including my own) are making a complete hash of the whole closing things down to buy time concept. But how could any of us know that would happen before it actually happened? And lots of countries are doing fine and will be fine in the long run. As fine as they can be with the US dragging down the World economy, that is.
 

Simone411

Do stand. Do stand six. Do stand six feet from me.
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Just checked the statistics for Louisiana as of yesterday, May 29th. Phase one occurred on Friday, May 15th. At that time the cases reported had hit 37,000.

There are now 39,577 cases reported, 2680 deaths reported, 28,700 presumed recovered with 674 patients in the hospital. 84 of those patients are on ventilators.

20,395 tests performed by State lab, 348,428 commercial tests performed.

Louisiana Department of Health. I hope this link works. So far, every link that I share hasn't worked. Maybe it will this time. Crossing fingers.

I have yet to be tested, but I've hardly been outside of my home except to go to my mailbox every day using my walker. I went to Dollar General last week between the hours of 8 - 9 a.m. which is designated for Senior Citizens. I wore my mask, shopped using my walker which does help with social distancing. I almost brought my cattle prod, but there wasn't but three other people there at the time! :lol:

ETA: I just tried the link. It doesn't work, and I still don't know how to fix it. Sorry.
 

skatingguy

Golden Team
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7,278
Louisiana Department of Health. I hope this link works. So far, every link that I share hasn't worked. Maybe it will this time. Crossing fingers.

ETA: I just tried the link. It doesn't work, and I still don't know how to fix it. Sorry.
https://tinyurl.com/ This site will create a url that you can post so that the link will work.

 

Simone411

Do stand. Do stand six. Do stand six feet from me.
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missing

Well-Known To Whom She Wonders
Messages
3,260
I have a feeling re-opening is going to look a lot like tonight, with sporadic outbreaks of violence throughout the summer in many different states.

There's so much anger and pent up resentment and fear. Throw in massive economic issues, ten ton weights of uncertainty, and ever growing cynicism about politicians and police, and I don't see how things can calm down.

I don't know what the consequences will be, but I can't imagine the next few months being smooth and easy.
 

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