What does re-opening look like?

SkateSand

Cat Servant
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503
As I listened to the county Public Health Director last night, she listed the county groups of clusters of cases. Of course one nursing home, one packing plant, some that were connected to the first case in the county, a Jazzercise class, family gathering, etc. All previously known clusters.

Then she added three new cases are connected to a restaurant, and refused to identify it at the current time. Restaurants were opened around May 18 or so. No idea if they are employees or customers. I can sort of understand the reluctance as it would devastate the business, but on the other hand I would like to know if we had done take out from that business. We use credit card only for purchases, so I guess if they think we are at risk we would be notified?
Due to the contact tracing now required, I'd say that if you had done business with that restaurant, they will contact you. The problem is for people who might pay cash or where there is no name or contact information affiliated with the purchase.
 

Louis

Private citizen
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14,290
Louis, I suggest you stick to worrying about the retail business, it’s going straight downhill.
Not everywhere. Thanks to clever promotions (designed by me :encore: ), several stores are outperforming previous years despite social distancing and other limitations. Now we just need the rest to open....
 

manhn

Well-Known Member
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12,960
In British Columbia, restaurants are supposed to ask for the phone number or email address of at least one person in each party that are dining in. Not take-out, but so many restaurants only accept credit card and debit cards. But the risk is increased by dining in.
 

Prancer

Needs More Sleep
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Someone needs to have a proper think about the solution - it can't simply be relax one and allow the crud to spread, or relax accreditation and lower the standards that were previously expected from a qualification. That's why its a really difficult thing to address.
ITA. It's not like those requirements are capricious and it certainly won't benefit any graduates if they come from a program that simply cuts requirements.

If you are a theater major who graduates and hasn't been in a performance for the last year or two, what is that going to do for you? Performing with a group is not at all the same as performing alone; you have to develop that skill set, too.

These requirements are also a substantive chunk of performing arts programs. If those requirements are cut, will something replace them? Because if not, students will only be required to take about half the classes they normally would. How would that work? And you also don't want to make students take classes just because to fill space on a form.

Then you have something like this--I play guitar, which will be pretty easy to adapt, as we can play alone or in groups and just sit far apart (if we are moved out of the guitar room, which was horribly claustrophobic before all this). Piano and percussion can do that, too. But brass and winds? I mean, I don't even want to be in the audience in the small recital hall with a group of brass and winds, no matter how far apart they are from each other. I sure as heck wouldn't want to be a winds or brass teacher trapped in one of the studios with different individual students all day long. The big recital hall for groups, okay, but then the competition for that space is going to be fierce if the theater and dance majors are going to be able to do anything.

Yes; but the way it often works in circumstances like this is the school/program contacts the accreditor and asks for a waiver. It goes from the bottom, as it were, up.
Yes, I am aware of that, but I don't think it's a given that requirements will or even should be waived.

there are talented teachers in, say, Kansas, who can teach New York students for $30k/year.
((((((talented teachers in Kansas whose talents are worth only $30K)))))))
 

once_upon

New condo owner
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14,454
Just looked it up, average hourly pay for a teacher in Kansas - $19/hour.

But I assume included in that average is the starting salary of an first year teacher to superintendent of the largest metropolitan area in Kansas.

We entrust our future to people earning an average of $19/hour. Yet pay some person who is contributing to society by pushing consumerism as the backbone of the world mega salary.
 

Yazmeen

Shake it then, shake it now, shake it forever
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5,315
For anyone who think reopening will just go swimmingly for small businesses - a dance sister friend was polling people about potentially going back to her gym when it reopened, and another friend who owns a hair salon posted her experience after being open for 2 weeks:

"People who are in a hurry to get “back to normal” do NOT care about your well-being. After two weeks of operating, I’ve had one person try to force their way in with a fever, another come with a contagious skin infection and try to hide it, I’ve had several others lie about their employment status to get an appointment, and keeping masks on people is difficult. Do not trust the general population to do the right thing."
 

missing

Well-Known To Whom She Wonders
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3,222
The library in the town where I live is part of a multi-county library system. The local paper had an article about the library system's plans for reopening.

  • Users will be able to contact staff in all 47 libraries in the RCLS system beginning June 8, and will be able to view each library’s catalog and see how the reopening process will work at each site.
  • Starting June 22, libraries will begin allowing users to start placing holds on materials through the RCLS Gateway app and in the library catalogs (no inter-library loans) either online or via telephone.
  • Individual libraries will then begin assigning appointments for curbside pickups. The timeline for pickups will differ depending on your local library’s staffing and building configuration.
  • No in-person browsing through the collections will be allowed, and returned materials will be placed into a seven-day “quarantine” (following CDC guidelines) before going back into circulation.
  • Book deposits are open at some libraries depending on staff.
  • Riario said RCLS libraries hope to welcome the public into their buildings starting by end of June or the first week of July — but by appointment only.
  • Some services such as notary and delivery for homebound patrons will resume.
  • The timeline for further resumption of limited hours for the public, browsing of the stacks, in-house programs, and inter-library loans will vary from library to library based on staffing.
  • Each library is in the process of creating a plan to accommodate the public, with many putting up Plexiglass and placing markers on the floor to maintain social distancing.
  • Online programs and services will continue.
 

overedge

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I assume we're talking about K-12 teachers in this hypothetical example of teachers making $250K a year. If we are, I would be really surprised if even principals or other administrators make that much. Maybe school district chief administrators, but I doubt it.
 

Lorac

Well-Known Member
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5,099
For anyone who think reopening will just go swimmingly for small businesses - a dance sister friend was polling people about potentially going back to her gym when it reopened, and another friend who owns a hair salon posted her experience after being open for 2 weeks:

"People who are in a hurry to get “back to normal” do NOT care about your well-being. After two weeks of operating, I’ve had one person try to force their way in with a fever, another come with a contagious skin infection and try to hide it, I’ve had several others lie about their employment status to get an appointment, and keeping masks on people is difficult. Do not trust the general population to do the right thing."
This is my big worry - people coming for massage but hiding their symptoms. I can't tell you how many times people walk in with what they claim are allergies but are clearly colds - and several times I've come down with a cold after working on someone 'who just has allergies'!!! Clients lying about possible CV symptoms is going to become an potential issue for those of us who work in close proximity with others on a regular basis I fear. :(
 

ballettmaus

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Children can either be taught remotely by someone cowering in their expensive home, costing taxpayers $250k+ a year (when all benefits, entitlements, etc.)
Not even my mom makes that much (far from it) and she works at a private school that is considered to be paying really well, takes her 30+ years as a teacher into account and gives a yearly raise.


are taken into account, or they can be remotely by someone earning $20k a year. Without in-person education, why pay local teachers or local teacher salaries?
So many reasons but let's go with the most obvious one: language. More often than not, you're hard-pressed to find someone in a call center who speaks proper English, so unless your plan is to move all teachers to India or the Phillippines, I'd love for you to show me the thousands of Phillippinos or Indians who are fluent in German, French, Danish, Swedish, Finnish, Norwegian, Dutch, Russian, Arabic, Spanish, Portuguese, Greek and every other language spoken on this earth.

Another major reason would be that online learning is not as effective. And then there's the issue of experiments done in chemistry, biology or physics class, PE, athletics, art classes, grading papers, grading students, oral exams (required by many European countries as part of the final exam), taking exams and tests.


No teacher I know is enjoying teaching from home. It's the opposite.
 

overedge

G.O.A.T.
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Outsourcing education to people in other countries who are already underpaid also strengthens inequality around the world.

There's this assumption that call centre staffers in places like India are doing that work because they're unqualified and undereducated and can't do work that pays any better. Many of them are university graduates who are doing that work because those are the only job openings that are available. The call centre owners are taking in the $$$$ but they're able to do that only because they're exploiting the staff answering the phones.

I'm sure some posters here are OK with supporting economic structures that can't function without grossly underpaying a significant number of workers. I'm not.
 

Yazmeen

Shake it then, shake it now, shake it forever
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5,315
I'm sure some posters here are OK with supporting economic structures that can't function without grossly underpaying a significant number of workers. I'm not.
THIS. That's what I'm waiting for here in the land of the demanding, home of the selfish. When the "essential workers" go from being heroes back to "it was never meant to a permanent job, can't you find something better" status rather than paying them a living wage.
 

once_upon

New condo owner
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14,454
Outsourcing education to people in other countries who are already underpaid also strengthens inequality
Not to mention that one of the original "open the economy now" was the number of low paid people living in India and devastation of poverty on that population and destruction of the world economy.

There isnt a real concern of the poster, it's the impact on his wallet to provide services that he is not using.
 

Prancer

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"People who are in a hurry to get “back to normal” do NOT care about your well-being. After two weeks of operating, I’ve had one person try to force their way in with a fever, another come with a contagious skin infection and try to hide it, I’ve had several others lie about their employment status to get an appointment, and keeping masks on people is difficult. Do not trust the general population to do the right thing."
My stylist was complaining before the salons were shut down that customers were refusing to comply with restrictions like not bringing friends or family along for appointments and from what I have seen, people are even worse now.

If nothing else, I figure it's in my best interest to see that she keeps her license, which means complying with all the requirements so she can keep working.

I assume we're talking about K-12 teachers in this hypothetical example of teachers making $250K a year. If we are, I would be really surprised if even principals or other administrators make that much.
He did say:

Children can either be taught remotely by someone cowering in their expensive home, costing taxpayers $250k+ a year (when all benefits, entitlements, etc.) are taken into account,
So he wasn't talking about just salary. And he also restricted it to teachers in NY and NJ, I think, although I kind of lost the thread somewhere in here.

The NYC Public school site says:

For 2019-20, starting salaries for teachers range from $57,845 (bachelor’s degree, no prior teaching experience) to $87,510 (master’s degree, eight years teaching experience, plus additional coursework). New teachers with a master’s degree but no prior teaching experience will earn $65,026.

And according to this, teacher salaries in NYC max out at $128,657. Kinda hard to believe you can buy an expensive home in NYC at that salary, even with great benefits, but maybe people have been lying to me all these years about how expensive housing is there.
 

MacMadame

Staying at home
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34,489
And according to this, teacher salaries in NYC max out at $128,657. Kinda hard to believe you can buy an expensive home in NYC at that salary, even with great benefits, but maybe people have been lying to me all these years about how expensive housing is there.
Anyone who is living in a nice house on a teacher's salary in NYC has a spouse with a medium to large salary. Many of them don't live in NYC anyway because they can't afford it.

My understanding is that the rule of thumb is that you double the salary in order to determine the loaded cost for budgeting purposes.

I was then going to do a bunch of math for all the salaries @Prancer posted but then I thought, why bother? The whole idea is just completely ridiculous. For one thing, it would take longer to implement than it would to create a vaccine.

But the real reason it's ridiculous... @Louis would have a cow if any of his niece and nephews were forced to get their education that way. As would any parent with any choice in the matter at all. It would kill the public school system and deepen inequality in the US.

No teacher I know is enjoying teaching from home. It's the opposite.
I know one. :D But they are a college professor teaching one class a semester. And their college already does a lot of online classes so they have tons of support.

Distance learning doesn't have to be crappy. It mostly was this Spring because it happened abruptly. If schools planned for it and used the summer to implement it, it could be much better when Fall comes around IMO.

Also, there are kids who do all their schooling online. They would argue that distance learning isn't crappy learning as well. As would all the college students who get their degrees online while working.
 

attyfan

Well-Known Member
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8,554
IMO, skimping on education isn't a reasonable way to save money. I don't have kids using any schools whatsoever, but I will be counting on other people's kids to provide services that I will need, whether they be medical, social or any other. If I don't spend the money for education now, I will still have to pay later because the kinds won't have the education that they will need to provide the services that I will need.
 

Prancer

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I know one. :D But they are a college professor teaching one class a semester. And their college already does a lot of online classes so they have tons of support.

Distance learning doesn't have to be crappy. It mostly was this Spring because it happened abruptly. If schools planned for it and used the summer to implement it, it could be much better when Fall comes around IMO.

Also, there are kids who do all their schooling online. They would argue that distance learning isn't crappy learning as well. As would all the college students who get their degrees online while working.
I've taught online for years, have a strong, well-developed online program behind me, and don't think that distance learning has to be crappy. It can be excellent.

But.

Distance learners have to be self-sufficient and self-motivated; this has been well-established in studies. College students are more likely to fall into that category than kids in K-12.

But more to the point, I am not seeing a lot of planning and implementation anywhere right now. Maybe it's there and I don't see it. But what I am seeing is a lot of indecision about what fall is going to look like, with a plan A and a plan B and maybe a plan C and not a lot of commitment to any of them.

One of the biggest problems teachers at all levels have is lack of training. Here's a shiny new thing--go figure it out before classes start next week. It shouldn't be a surprise when it doesn't work out, but it always seems to be.

One of the problems I have had, just as one example, is that all of our training focused on technology. I am pretty good at tech, so that part of it was easy. But making synchronous delivery work isn't easy; I've done some research on my own, but it isn't particularly helpful because there isn't much foundation for this. Classroom management is a totally different beast on Zoom. The one thing that is really helping me is that I know from past experience with adversity that the students will follow me if I make them think I know where I am going. But the students are definitely not getting my best because I don't know how to make that work yet.
 

once_upon

New condo owner
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From what my son said about 1st grade Zoom class, the first 10 minutes or so were spent saying Hi to classmates and their pets. I think the teacher felt it helped them focus on the instruction that followed.
 

ballettmaus

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14,124
Distance learning doesn't have to be crappy. It mostly was this Spring because it happened abruptly. If schools planned for it and used the summer to implement it, it could be much better when Fall comes around IMO.

Also, there are kids who do all their schooling online. They would argue that distance learning isn't crappy learning as well. As would all the college students who get their degrees online while working.
I think in terms of online learning, the US is doing fairly well because the US does offer the possibility to do home schooling. I also believe there are some advantages to it, like being able to set your own schedule. Still, I think that not being crappy doesn't mean it's ideal. For many students it's more effective to do something in person, see and touch something rather than just read about it. Many students also need to be able to speak to a teacher and/or see a teacher demonstrate it.
And while the US is doing fairly well, there are countries that are ill equipped to do online teaching, either because of poverty, non-existing/bad internet infrastructure (both problems that exist in the US as well) or because they've never bothered to invest into digital learning equipment. (Like in Berlin where it's a problem to get teachers a school email address :wall: )

As I've said in a previous post, I wish that governments and school boards would have used and use the time now, while schools are closed, to improve online learning conditions. I think there needs to be a contingency in place for a potential second wave but I don't think that online learning should ever substitute in-person learning. I don't have anything against online classes or a hybrid version but I believe it's a hands on professional that should continued to be taught in person (more so during the early years but also throughout high school).



Maybe we don't have to offshore, and there are talented teachers in, say, Kansas, who can teach New York students for $30k/year.
I thought about this a little more and I'm curious how you think that would work.

What if there aren't enough teachers in Kansas or other less-expensive states? Are you going to force teachers from other states to move against their will to a place they may not want to live in? That would affect their mental health which, in turn, would affect their work performance.
How would a teacher in Kansas know what a student in New York needs to learn? As far as I know, the each US state sets their own curriculum and what is taught when and how. (As do other countries). That means, you need a school board. Would you move the school board to a more remote state as well or do you plan to get rid of individual school boards and federalize the setting of the curriculum? Is that even possible considering the sovereignty of the states in the US?

What would you do about situations like the one in Berlin? Berlin needs teachers, desperately. It has for years. But teachers prefer to move elsewhere because pay is better elsewhere. At the same time, living costs are more affordable than in other areas in Berlin, so you can pay teachers less (which would be the goal) but there is a shortage of affordable living space.

There are also logistical issues, like how would student get their books. Since you want to close school buildings, they would have to be mailed. They would also have to be mailed back at the end of the term. Would the state/federal government pay for that or would students have to? Not all students can afford the postage. And what happens if someone doesn't mail their books back?
Then there are families who live in remote areas where internet infrastructure is still underdeveloped. Others can't afford the internet needed to do online classes. As far as I know, many companies waved their data caps and provided free internet to low-income families, so that's also why online learning works fairly well in the US but that's not going to be the case forever.
Not all families can afford a printer or more than one computer.

Right now, school lunches are still given out to children who depend on lunches for food but if you shut down school buildings, that wouldn't be possible anymore. Likewise, as you yourself pointed out, children who live in an unhealthy/abusive environment and for who school is a refuge won't have anywhere to go anymore.
Reducing teachers would also put millions of teachers out of work and not just teachers. Maintenance would be out of work, school bus drivers would be out of work, energy companies would make less money which could lead to layoffs, and, since children would be at home all day, I'm assuming afterschool programs would become obsolete, so they, too, would lose their jobs.

You argued against the shutdown meant to save lives and protect the vulnerable and elderly from a deadly disease citing high unemployment numbers, mental health concerns and the economic impact and yet, you advocate for doing something that would put millions of people out of work, affect the mental health of everyone involved and would negatively impact the economy. That makes it very hard for me to believe that the concern you voiced before was genuine.



From what my son said about 1st grade Zoom class, the first 10 minutes or so were spent saying Hi to classmates and their pets. I think the teacher felt it helped them focus on the instruction that followed.
My mom found that establishing a routine and structuring Zoom meetings in much of the same way as their day in preschool helps the kids. They start similarily, by checking attendance and then each kid can give a weather report. (As they're fascinated by the fact that the weather is either the same or different at the other kids' places).
 

MacMadame

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Distance learners have to be self-sufficient and self-motivated; this has been well-established in studies. College students are more likely to fall into that category than kids in K-12.

But more to the point, I am not seeing a lot of planning and implementation anywhere right now.
I agree with both of these points.

I want to clarify that I'm not saying that I believe the online learning that will most likely happen in the fall will be terrific. Just that doesn't have to be horrible just because it's online.

I think in terms of online learning, the US is doing fairly well because the US does offer the possibility to do home schooling.
But even so, there was some sort of survey and it seems like some enormous number of kids haven't even signed into online learning even once this Spring.
 

Prancer

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That makes it very hard for me to believe that the concern you voiced before was genuine.
What Louis said was that IF we have to have remote teaching, there is no reason why the teachers have to be local.

There isn't, technically. I have had students taking class from me from all over the world. Distance learning is called that for a reason. And before I did distance learning, I taught in a program where I adapted curriculum from other colleges for students so that they could get credit from other institutions. It wasn't all that difficult to do.

The biggest argument I see against it is that eventually everyone will go back to school, whether it's this fall or winter or whenever. Distance learning for most is temporary. For kids, especially younger kids, continuity of instruction is important.

His main argument is that remote learning can be used to bust teachers' unions. I am not sure where you read concern in his posts, because I certainly don't see it. And I am not sure what he thinks will happen when F2F resumes, which it will.
 

genevieve

drinky typo pbp, closet hugger (she/her)
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"People who are in a hurry to get “back to normal” do NOT care about your well-being...."
That's the understatement of the year, made obvious over and over again by the stay at home protests, and even the posts here.

Outsourcing education to people in other countries who are already underpaid also strengthens inequality around the world.
...
I'm sure some posters here are OK with supporting economic structures that can't function without grossly underpaying a significant number of workers. I'm not.
This. And That.

I got an email today from the owner of my salon. She is making tentative plans to open June 16 (our state has not moved my county into Phase 2 yet), and sent out the new requirements for an appointment: behind-the-ear masks at all times, no restrooms available for use, wait for your appointment outside on the sidewalk, no double-booking color appointments, and higher prices on everything to offset the reduction in revenue from spacing appointments out. I think some folks sent her money as prepayments when the salon first closed, and she's honoring old prices for those folks until their credit runs down, which I think is a nice way to say thank you to those people.
 

once_upon

New condo owner
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If last May I would have suggested we sit on our own patio drinking wine as opposed to one of our favorite restaurants in the Old Market, my husband would have wondered if i was sick.

This year he suggested it might be possible to sit on the patio of one of our favorite place. We walked over to the Old Market to scope out the patios. I decided we needed to come home. If I had more data on the three cases associated with a restaurant yesterday, I might have made a different decision. Plus very few - maybe 10% - of people were wearing masks.

The news reported 3% of restaurants arent opening, they've closed permanently.
 

ballettmaus

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14,124
But even so, there was some sort of survey and it seems like some enormous number of kids haven't even signed into online learning even once this Spring.
I haven't read much about it but one reason seems to be lack of access to equipment.


What Louis said was that IF we have to have remote teaching, there is no reason why the teachers have to be local.
Louis argued that if schools can't reopen, teaching could be outsourced and in another post, said that if there is no in-person learning all teachers should be laid off and teaching should be outsourced. I'm not entirely sure why teachers in cost-saving locations would have to be fired, too, unless one thinks they should be re-hired at a lower salary or we can make do with fewer teachers once we're doing remote learning, however, even if they weren't fired, you'd still have a huge number of teachers living in the wrong location who'd be unemployed. (Plus everyone else who works in schools would be unemployed everywhere, no matter what).
 
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Debbie S

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For the past 2 days, we've had 1300 new cases (yes, per day). And we are still moving forward with reopening. Outdoor dining, retail at 50% capacity. The governor is talking about moving to phase 2 soon. Except that cases are increasing everywhere, including the more rural counties. I'd like everything to go back to normal too, but we're not even on a downward curve. Hospitalization numbers seem to be driving the decisions and those were down today, but that's after 3 days of going up.

My mom got a haircut today. One other customer, masks required for everyone, wait in the car until they call you in for your appt. No washing, no blow-drying. She had to use sanitizer when she first came in (after they took her temp) and then she was sent to wash her hands and was given a gown to put on. They are charging $5 extra to cover the costs of PPE and reduced capacity.
 

once_upon

New condo owner
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14,454
Louis argued that if schools can't reopen, teaching could be outsourced and in another post, said that if there is no in-person learning all teachers should be laid off and teaching should be outsourced. I'm not entirely sure why teachers in cost-savings locations would have to be fired, too, unless one thinks they should be re-hired at a lower salary or we can make do with fewer teachers once we're doing remote learning, however, even if they weren't fired, you'd still have a huge number of teachers living in the wrong location who'd be unemployed.
Because its Louis? And retail is the one thing that needs to survive?
 

Prancer

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Louis argued that if schools can't reopen, teaching could be outsourced and in another post, said that if there is no in-person learning all teachers should be laid off and teaching should be outsourced.
Yes, I read his posts and understood them perfectly well.
 

Japanfan

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23,151
It's also important to consider that teachers are expected to meet certain standards in various countries. A foreign teacher might not have the qualifications required to teach in the U.S. And would also lack the cultural contexts which impact students' lives and learning practices.
 

MacMadame

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I haven't read much about it but one reason seems to be lack of access to equipment.
And also a lack of reliable internet.

I know that Google and some other companies were doing their best to get free internet to people when this all started but like a lot of these efforts, it's spotty.
 

SkateSand

Cat Servant
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503
And also a lack of reliable internet.

I know that Google and some other companies were doing their best to get free internet to people when this all started but like a lot of these efforts, it's spotty.
That's our problem here as internet can be spotty throughout the county and a lot of the kids weren't able to participate in the online instruction when schools were closed down. The colleges will be okay except for the courses that require hands-on teaching, like the nursing program, but for K through 12 it will be rough. I think here most of the students will be going back into the classroom.
 
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