What does re-opening look like?

Louis

Private citizen
Messages
14,349
Some speculation that 300k teachers could be laid off, with municipalities unable to cope with the shutdown costs that have spiraled out of control:

If in-person education is not going to be possible without a vaccine, maybe it's time to outsource most / all education to an off-shore provider with lower cost structure and more experience delivering virtual programs -- e.g., a provider in India or the Philippines. Selling off some of the now- vacant school buildings could also help recover some costs. With virtual learning, someone can teach just as well from Bangalore as from Bergen County, and maybe it would bring some much-needed property tax relief.

*********-19 has brought about forced digital transformation, and I'm excited by the opportunities to reshape the public sector to be leaner, meaner, more digital, and a whole lot less expensive for taxpayers.
 

cholla

High ground loner
Messages
12,100
French restaurants and bars are re-opening on Monday. The 100 kms limit for trips will be lifted too. The border to Italy will re-open on Tuesday 🇮🇹 and the one to Switzerland on June 15 🇨🇭 I'll be able to go hiking on the Italian side of Mont Blanc, my fave spot around here, next week. Wheeeeeeee :cheer2:
 

spinZZ

Active Member
Messages
104
Cardboard? (Schools will have less money, not more; and cardboard test dividers are what many schools have).
https://www.reallygoodstuff.com/rea...MIu47Vy63Y6QIVB7zACh1HbgKoEAQYAiABEgIXcPD_BwE
The cardboard privacy shields of course are designed to intentionally obstruct line-of-sight. Not practical if the intent of in-class instruction is for the students to be able to view the instructor and demos (and maybe other students). There's also the issue of how well cardboard will hold up when repeatedly treated with disinfectant, especially if mechanically wiped down.

The choice of partitions is a complex one. Disposable or multi-use? Short-term or long-term use? Durability? Ease of disinfecting? Price? Delivery and installation time?

Some businesses have set up partitions with clear sheet vinyl (similar to shower curtains). Cheap, quick, disposable. Others have setup custom-fabricated plexiglass units. Expensive, possibly long lead time (depending on demand vs number of fabricators in your area), quasi-permanent. Plain plexiglass scratches easily; a consideration for surfaces that will be wiped down frequently. More expensive grades have anti-scratch coatings. Another option is tempered glass.

Perhaps two rounds are needed: first something cheap, easy to get, and easy to install as an expediency; then followed by something more expensive, custom fabricated and installed, and more durable if it becomes clear this scenario is not temporary, but unfortunately, a new normal.
 
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antmanb

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,961
Wouldn't Health and Safety obligations override those accreditation requirements? Just a thought.
Why would they if they are mutually exclusive? Performing arts might not affect the average consumer so much, but accreditation for medical professionals? I wouldn't want to put my health in the hands of someone who had accreditation requirements relaxed to obtain their qualifications because of the current crisis, would you?

Someone needs to have a proper think about the solution - it can't simply be relax one and allow the crud to spread, or relax accreditation and lower the standards that were previously expected from a qualification. That's why its a really difficult thing to address.
 

PRlady

Well-Known Member
Messages
34,913
Some speculation that 300k teachers could be laid off, with municipalities unable to cope with the shutdown costs that have spiraled out of control:

If in-person education is not going to be possible without a vaccine, maybe it's time to outsource most / all education to an off-shore provider with lower cost structure and more experience delivering virtual programs -- e.g., a provider in India or the Philippines. Selling off some of the now- vacant school buildings could also help recover some costs. With virtual learning, someone can teach just as well from Bangalore as from Bergen County, and maybe it would bring some much-needed property tax relief.

*********-19 has brought about forced digital transformation, and I'm excited by the opportunities to reshape the public sector to be leaner, meaner, more digital, and a whole lot less expensive for taxpayers.
Actually the ********* will make people realize that only strong, competent governments that haven’t been bled to death by personnel cuts can help them when the worst happens. And it’s the private sector that’s going to have to reform, per this conservative economist (one of many I’ve read):https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/05/28/end-life-we-know-it-get-real/
 

mpal2

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,425
Actually the ********* will make people realize that only strong, competent governments that haven’t been bled to death by personnel cuts can help them when the worst happens.
It's cute that you think I will suddenly be gullible enough to believe either party suddenly became interested in helping me. I don't fit any of their favorite demographics so I have never counted. I am sick and tired of the left acting like they are better for me because the only thing they have ever used me for is to fund their special interests. The right isn't even pretending to care so it makes them less obnoxious and I know how to plan instead of having to check for the dagger in my back.
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,279
Why would they if they are mutually exclusive? Performing arts might not affect the average consumer so much, but accreditation for medical professionals? I wouldn't want to put my health in the hands of someone who had accreditation requirements relaxed to obtain their qualifications because of the current crisis, would you?

Someone needs to have a proper think about the solution - it can't simply be relax one and allow the crud to spread, or relax accreditation and lower the standards that were previously expected from a qualification. That's why its a really difficult thing to address.
As far as theater goes, the senior theater majors at my college were always required to put on a small--typically one-person--show in a black box theater. That--either outdoors or virtually--would still be possible.
 
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clairecloutier

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,531
If in-person education is not going to be possible without a vaccine, maybe it's time to outsource most / all education to an off-shore provider with lower cost structure and more experience delivering virtual programs -- e.g., a provider in India or the Philippines. Selling off some of the now- vacant school buildings could also help recover some costs. With virtual learning, someone can teach just as well from Bangalore as from Bergen County, and maybe it would bring some much-needed property tax relief.

Thank you for this input from a non-parent. Suffice to say that, as a parent (and, BTW, property owner), I couldn't disagree more.
 

snoopy

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,232
Having children taught remotely by a help desk in India is one of the more harebrained ideas Louis has put forth.
 

antmanb

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,961
Thank you for this input from a non-parent. Suffice to say that, as a parent (and, BTW, property owner), I couldn't disagree more.
Wow I went back to the original post because I was sure that Louis was just being sarcastic but I think I might have been wrong about that :lol:

Given how well outsourcing of customer services went i'm fairly sure no-one is going to start outsourcing education.
 

GarrAargHrumph

I can kill you with my brain
Messages
18,971
AFAIK, the accreditation and state entities would have to be the ones to waive the requirements.
Yes; but the way it often works in circumstances like this is the school/program contacts the accreditor and asks for a waiver. It goes from the bottom, as it were, up.


Given how well outsourcing of customer services went i'm fairly sure no-one is going to start outsourcing education.
Don't assume this at all. We're already seeing outsourcing of online/distance learning college programs to for-profit companies, which run the programs behind the scenes for the actual university. The program has the name "Cornell" on it, but it's run by a corporation.

This change pre-dated, and has nothing to do with the current situation with the illness, although I'd imagine today's situation may cause things to accelerate.
 

once_upon

New condo owner
Messages
14,612
As I listened to the county Public Health Director last night, she listed the county groups of clusters of cases. Of course one nursing home, one packing plant, some that were connected to the first case in the county, a Jazzercise class, family gathering, etc. All previously known clusters.

Then she added three new cases are connected to a restaurant, and refused to identify it at the current time. Restaurants were opened around May 18 or so. No idea if they are employees or customers. I can sort of understand the reluctance as it would devastate the business, but on the other hand I would like to know if we had done take out from that business. We use credit card only for purchases, so I guess if they think we are at risk we would be notified?
 

missing

Well-Known To Whom She Wonders
Messages
3,260
Hundreds of South Korea schools close after reopening.

Seoul (CNN)More than 500 schools closed again Friday to students after briefly reopening, as South Korea moves to stamp out a resurgence of the ******** in the capital, Seoul, and its surrounding metropolitan area.

Parks, art galleries, museums and theaters operated by the government in the Seoul metropolitan area -- home to about half the country's population of nearly 52 million -- have also been closed to the public for the next two weeks.

Government hosted events in the metropolitan area will be canceled or postponed as well, Health Minister Park Neung-hoo said Thursday. The authorities have recommended that private academies and internet cafes there close too until June 14.

Park also asked people living in the Seoul metropolitan area to refrain from going outside or holding events for the next fortnight
 

genevieve

drinky typo pbp, closet hugger (she/her)
Staff member
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36,713
I work in the classical performing arts (both as a performer and an administrator) and, as we consider any possible kind of season for 2020-2021, it's become clear that anything involving mass performers on stage -- opera, choral singing, big orchestras (especially with wind and brass players) -- is pretty much out of the question.
About a month ago I saw an article from a major symphony trying to sketch out what a socially distant performance could look like in a 2,000 seat theater under the likely necessary restrictions. When including moving the wind and brass players to the balcony (!!), the max capacity for any given show was something like 24%. Ticket prices never cover the full cost of a performance, but think about how much a ticket would have to cost to make such an event even possible.

(((((performing arts)))))
 

Louis

Private citizen
Messages
14,349
Having children taught remotely by a help desk in India is one of the more harebrained ideas Louis has put forth.
:lol: But this is what's happening now?

Children can either be taught remotely by someone cowering in their expensive home, costing taxpayers $250k+ a year (when all benefits, entitlements, etc.) are taken into account, or they can be remotely by someone earning $20k a year. Without in-person education, why pay local teachers or local teacher salaries?

The shutdown is showing us just how small the public sector really needs to be - short of trash collectors, I'm not sure what else we really "need." I'm in favor of outsourcing / offshoring anything that can be done remotely to get taxpayers a better deal. Maybe we don't have to offshore, and there are talented teachers in, say, Kansas, who can teach New York students for $30k/year.
 

genevieve

drinky typo pbp, closet hugger (she/her)
Staff member
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36,713
Children can either be taught remotely by someone cowering in their expensive home, costing taxpayers $250k+ a year (when all benefits, entitlements, etc.) are taken into account, ....
:rofl: How many teachers do you know making that kind of living?
 

snoopy

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,232
For me, taxpayer is not > than citizen. So offshoring is not an overall plus IMO. I don't think any politician would run on that platform and Trump partly won by specifically running counter to it. Further, such an argument does add weight to the view that its all about the benjamins for Libertarians.

I don't have kids but I'd sure hope we return to in person learning soon because I can't imagine remote learning is all that helpful. Plus, we have had a thousand threads in the past about how US education is more about socialization than knowledge.
 

Lizziebeth

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,008
Ridiculous, I don't know where to start.

Louis, I know you don't have any children, but I can't believe you would want your children taught by a teacher they have never met. Children with special needs would especially be ill equipped to deal with this.

The idea of finding the cheapest possible teacher is not much of a strategy. :scream:
 

once_upon

New condo owner
Messages
14,612
:rofl: How many teachers do you know making that kind of living?
Louis has ALWAYS hated teachers salaries in part because they are represented by unions and secondly because he pays taxes for something he doesn't get benefit from.
His hatred for teachers unions has always existed.
 

Louis

Private citizen
Messages
14,349
:rofl: How many teachers do you know making that kind of living?
A lot, in the NY/NJ area. That's not all direct salary, but total cost to the taxpayer including healthcare, pension, etc.

I don't have kids but I'd sure hope we return to in person learning soon because I can't imagine remote learning is all that helpful. Plus, we have had a thousand threads in the past about how US education is more about socialization than knowledge.
I actually agree, but if we're all going to be cowering in place to the point that schools can't reopen and instruction is a talking head on a laptop, then lay off all the teachers and outsource it.
 

genevieve

drinky typo pbp, closet hugger (she/her)
Staff member
Messages
36,713
A lot, in the NY/NJ area. That's not all direct salary, but total cost to the taxpayer including healthcare, pension, etc.
Hmmm, I know a lot of teachers, but I think only 2 in NYC. DEFINITELY not making that much (yes, with benefits), and they both live in rented apartments. Actually, the only teachers I know who live in "expensive" homes are the ones married to someone who works in tech.

Speaking of devaluing overinflated salaries, how about starting there? :shuffle:
 

canbelto

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,595
:lol: But this is what's happening now?

Children can either be taught remotely by someone cowering in their expensive home, costing taxpayers $250k+ a year (when all benefits, entitlements, etc.) are taken into account, or they can be remotely by someone earning $20k a year. Without in-person education, why pay local teachers or local teacher salaries?

The shutdown is showing us just how small the public sector really needs to be - short of trash collectors, I'm not sure what else we really "need." I'm in favor of outsourcing / offshoring anything that can be done remotely to get taxpayers a better deal. Maybe we don't have to offshore, and there are talented teachers in, say, Kansas, who can teach New York students for $30k/year.
Yeah cheap outsourced labor is always the answer. But seriously, I don't know any teachers who make 250k a year. I am lucky that I have a pretty generous salary because of the two masters I have and I don't even make 100k. And I teach in NYC. Just putting that out there.

Also teachers have to know their students. Maybe this isn't obvious to you ...
 

MsZem

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,997
New cases have spiked in Israel, with over 100 in one day for the first time in four weeks. Much of it is tied to the genius decision to reopen schools without adequate social distancing. Now the Ministry of Health wants secondary school students to go back to distance learning. Should have thought about that last week... instead of telling everyone to skip the masks due to the heatwave.
 

clairecloutier

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,531
Teachers' salaries in the U.S. are, in fact, generally way too low. Many teachers struggle to get by financially. There have been any number of articles about this .... As a result, there is frequently too much teacher turnover in schools. To continue to attract bright, intelligent, committed, and creative teachers, we in fact need to be paying more, not less.

Anyone who's ever had a kid knows how much teachers can mean to them & the difference they make in kids' lives. Teachers don't just teach dry subject matter. They teach ideas, the spirit of learning and of curiosity. They also teach behavior, social skills, and values, either directly or through example. At the younger levels, they give hugs; they wipe tears. There's no way that kind of interaction and experience can be replaced by someone talking about math, possibly with a heavy accent, from 2000 miles away. :rolleyes:

My kids' online education at this point isn't ideal, but at least it's with teachers they know and have a real-life connection with. And most importantly, it's temporary. School districts around the U.S. are doing everything they can now to devise responsible/safe ways of reopening in the fall, at least partially. Eventually, we'll get there. Distance learning is definitely not something I'd ever want to make permanent.
 

PRlady

Well-Known Member
Messages
34,913
There are good teachers and bad ones and unfortunately sometimes unions protect the latter, but with all the shit they get from parents,principals and school boards, they absolutely need protection.

The hardest thing I’ve ever done career-wise was stand in a classroom teaching. To think it can be done by the call center guy who can’t straighten out my Expedia reservation is surreal.

Louis, I suggest you stick to worrying about the retail business, it’s going straight downhill.
 

missing

Well-Known To Whom She Wonders
Messages
3,260
I'd say people are pigs but that's an insult to pigs.

A popular Southern California waterfall will close Friday after "unprecedented crowds" left human waste and "multiple truckloads of trash," the agency that preserves and manages the land said in a press release on Wednesday. The park where the falls are located reopened for weekend use just two weeks ago following a closure due to the ******** *********...

Every day this weekend the agency's rangers picked up "multiple truckloads of trash" in the Paradise Falls area, the agency said. The release said that while there were trash cans, many visitors left their trash for staff to pick up and the garbage "accumulated faster than it could be removed."

In addition to garbage, the agency said visitors also used the surrounding areas as a restroom. "Then there were problems with human waste and sanitation as many used areas along the creek both upstream and downstream as a toilet, and wetland vegetation was trampled," COSCA said.
 

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