What does re-opening look like?

SkateSand

Cat Servant
Messages
522
Our county (among others) got permission today to reopen churches, with stipulations, i.e., reduced capacity, etc., and then in three weeks they will assess the results.
 

Louis

Private citizen
Messages
14,349
So I took precautions. The store took precautions. What part of this is me being at fault for going to B&N?
If 2/3 precautions worked, then you still have an excellent chance. The lady's behavior was appalling. The store clerk's behavior was a bit questionable. (I'd have let the lady bang or called security of the police.) We can't always control others' behaviors. People can and do make mistakes, or some just don't care. If people are really, really uncomfortable with this - that despite your own precautions and the store's precautions, you still feel at risk -- remaining at home is an option. Requiring everyone else to stay home is not.

I cannot and will not support the idea that there's this large uncontrollable risk out there. It's very controllable, and most of the control is up to us

[ f*cking selfish holier than thou, name-calling, profanity-laced ipersonal attack and tirade deleted]
My my, what models of empathy from the liberal bully clique. The world would be a better place if we all behaved like this toward each other, I'm sure. :saint:
 

overedge

G.O.A.T.
Messages
27,808
My my, what models of empathy from the liberal bully clique. The world would be a better place if we all behaved like this toward each other, I'm sure. :saint:
What does "liberal" have to do with calling you out as being a selfish *sshole? Nothing :rolleyes:
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
Messages
23,081
I cannot and will not support the idea that there's this large uncontrollable risk out there. It's very controllable, and most of the control is up to us
Well actually the problem is you cannot control morons which is what most of the people cracking it over being told to wear masks and stay at home are.

I just watched a series of clips of people being filmed behaving badly and have seen many others. Spitting and coughing at store assistants. These days it is easily caught on camera. So this stuff is being shared around on social media. Some of them are filming it themselves to probably share around with their friends and show how their freedoms are being taken away. They are being refused service because they won't respect store policy to wear a mask.

Now I know you will say that it is because of government orders they are behaving like that. That they are so stressed and this is what "imposing" on people rights are. And just as you ignorantly expect people will do the right thing, you would say this is their freedom of speech. Are they entitled to behave that way towards people just doing their jobs? No they are not.

So this was a small representation. But I can only imagine the number of other situations out there that this is happening.

So if you think and trust that people are going to do the right thing, you are a bloody idiot.

As for you feeling that you are being attacked by liberals, well that is what happens when you behave like a self-entitled prat. But you are not being attacked by liberals. You are being brought to account by people who think of others before themselves. You are the odd one out.
 

once_upon

New condo owner
Messages
14,615
Its possible for it to be a controllable risk, but not the way people are acting. They are not being responsible - at least a huge % of people I see.
 

mag

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,198
Some numbers around how the ***** has spread in different situations.

 

skatfan

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,776
Went out for a drive and lunch for my birthday. Accidently passed a historical spot that has access to the river around here and hardly anyone there- spent a lovely hour on a gentle hike to the river and back without getting closer than 15 feet and that was getting the car at the parking lot.

Drove to Tombstone and things have opened up -RVs in campgrounds and families along the streets and reenactors ready to shoot it out- not a mask anywhere. Decided to stay in the car and go to Bisbee for lunch. Hit a famous hotdog place where there’s not enough room for social distancing, none of the staff wearing masks, so I huddled by a wall in mine til my takeout came and ate in the car.
 

Karen-W

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,035
I've made no secret in this thread and in others here on FSU that I tend to agree with Louis and Becca and the few others who think we need to open up. The past couple days of reading this particular thread has really turned me off to more than a few posters because they've straight up been bullying Becca about choosing to go to Mass. Her church has followed all the rules, she followed all the rules and it STILL isn't okay with some of you. It simply is not acceptable to leave your house in any way, shape or form if it is not absolutely necessary. And you are choosing to define what that "absolutely necessary" is.

Every single article you link about another church or social gathering causing the spread of the crud involves people who DID NOT follow the guidelines. But, here is the thing... Show me a story where the crud was spread in spite of everyone really truly following the rules as Becca has described. If we see lots of cases happening in spite of people following the recommendations then there would be a point to all of your incessant nattering on and on to #staytheeffhome but until there is... What? Just say it. A VACCINE. A TREATMENT THAT CURES... What percentage of cases is acceptable? Until this is no more deadly than the yearly flu strain? Tell that to the 40 million... Let me repeat that number... FORTY MILLION... Americans who have filed for unemployment in the past 2 months. What's the number of known cases in the US today? 1.5 million? Let's be generous and say that the number of known cases is underestimated by 25%. That would give us 2 million infected. Or, roughly, 5% the number of currently unemployed due to this shutdown.

As Louis continuously says... Let people make their own choice. The mother of the young lady who had a presumptive positive crud diagnosis back in March told me that her daughter wasn't ever given the test but that the doctors had tested all the other people in their small town who had similar symptoms, some of whom were in the ICU, and all their tests (some had 2 or 3) came back negative, so she was told she didn't have it. Now, turns out, some of these people are getting antibody tests and coming back positive, so the young lady's doctor wants her to take the antibody test. The mother was telling me that she is certain her daughter got it from some people at church who were hugging and not social distancing, etc, in early March. At no point did anyone in the church ministry reach out to the rest of the congregation and alert them to the fact that several of their congregants were experiencing crud-like symptoms. And since then, even after the positive antibody tests, the church has continued to fail to practice social distancing and even basics like mask-wearing. At this point, the mother has decided to look for another church because she feels like the church ministry failed in its moral obligation 2 months ago and continues to treat this like it is no big deal (there are a couple other reasons why she is looking for a new church home but this is the big one). This is what conscious decision-making and social responsibility is about. It isn't about bullying and berating others into doing what YOU think is the correct course of action.
 

MacMadame

Staying at home
Staff member
Messages
34,690
Some numbers around how the ***** has spread in different situations.

This seems to me to be more about how to manage a ********* so no harsh lockdowns are needed. If we had contact tracers and tests like Singapore, we could be much more opened up too. Even with that super-spreader event that involved more than 100 infected people and 1000 self-quarantining, they were able to squash it down because they had the proper tools.

Our Governor says that this is what we have or will have in CA. I hope he's right. And I hope people who do go out to things that are open with social distancing in place will actually follow the rules unlike some of these people being reported on.

Show me a story where the crud was spread in spite of everyone really truly following the rules as Becca has described.
Like the choir incident where everyone was social distancing but 3/4 of them got the Crud anyway just from singing with one infected person.
As Louis continuously says... Let people make their own choice.
And as @Prancer (and others) continuously says, that's just not possible with an infectious disease. Because everyone's individual actions impact many other people who want to make a different choice.
 

Karen-W

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,035
Like the choir incident where everyone was social distancing but 3/4 of them got the Crud anyway just from singing with one infected
You mean where they sang full out in an enclosed space for how long? And then broke into smaller groups to practice parts where they were NOT socially distanced? And before we had all of the information and guidelines we now have? That was 3 months ago. Let's try something a bit more recent, since the re-openings started.
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,279
Every single article you link about another church or social gathering causing the spread of the crud involves people who DID NOT follow the guidelines. But, here is the thing... Show me a story where the crud was spread in spite of everyone really truly following the rules as Becca has described.
This is the article about the Calgary church celebration where they were trying hard to follow health guidelines that I found quite disturbing.
https://tinyurl.com/yb9ovyrp

Also, twice--both from Becca and from someone previously--we have already heard that churches are not actually planning to follow the guidelines. Both posters stated that there would be little singing.

Health guidelines are no singing. No singing at all.
 

Prancer

Needs More Sleep
Staff member
Messages
49,944
If 2/3 precautions worked, then you still have an excellent chance.
I am aware of that, which is why I said:

I do not think that I was at much risk at all in that situation, BTW. I took precautions, my exposure was minimal at worst, and I have no worries at all.
I don't think I am particularly at risk even in general, as I have also said before. I am also not afraid to die, as I have said before.

That is all, IMO, beside my point, which has almost nothing at all to do with me. I am in the luxurious position of never needing to leave my house for anything, barring an emergency, unless I want to. Everything is optional. Home is a nice place to be. And if I get sick, I have great insurance, an army of doctors to provide me with care, a hospital less than a mile away and people to tote and fetch and bathe my fevered brow with gloved hands at home.

Lucky, lucky me. And I mean that sincerely.

If people are really, really uncomfortable with this - that despite your own precautions and the store's precautions, you still feel at risk -- remaining at home is an option.
It is an option for ME, but I am, as I have said before, exceptionally privileged here. It is not an option for people who have to go back to work because they have no choice in the matter. Do you think those infected hair stylists at Great Clips went back to work because they were exercising their options?

We can't afford to have this level of unemployment. But can we afford to have the majority of people who have to work getting sick? White collar people like me can CHOOSE to minimize risk by staying home. I doubt very much that the clerk at B&N has that kind of choice; she also can't CHOOSE to ignore customers. B&N is is rocky financial shape; they need all the happy customers they can get.

Oh, and that lady with the appalling behavior? All she wanted was some audiobooks for her kids. I am sure she thought she was being the reasonable party in that little episode, IF she thought about it at all (she seemed rather oblivious). I'll bet she has a lot of friends who would describe her as thoughtful and generous; she was calm and kind to her children, who were well behaved and obviously well cared for. There are a lot of people like her around here. They think that because we are opening up, it's all over and everything is back to normal, and they think precautions are needless overkill--or worse, part of a plot.

That's why I said a while back that I really think we--meaning people where I live--are going to have to actually see people around us getting sick, because it isn't happening here (yet) and so no one thinks it's real. I have a hard time conceiving of it being real, TBH, and have to remind myself when I go somewhere that yes, I do need to pay attention and take precautions. If it weren't for my germophobe husband, I would be probably be a lot more careless than I am.

I cannot and will not support the idea that there's this large uncontrollable risk out there. It's very controllable, and most of the control is up to us
Yes. Exactly. Our fate is in OUR hands. We are only as good as the society in which we live and move, so we are all dependent on other people to take precautions. My fate is in the hands of the people I described above every bit as much as my fate is in my own hands. And when people look around and see that other people are overtly NOT taking precautions, their only choice--IF they have one--is to accept a higher level of risk than they want or withdraw, which you say isn't tenable for people because they need to live. Of course, in your scenarios, that's always a choice. But your scenarios--in which everyone is following the guidelines and taking precautions--are just as unrealistic as what you insist on seeing as a demand to stay in lockdown forever. Like I said, it's not about one person going to Mass. It's about all of those people going to Mass and then some of them doing whatever else it is they do because they they don't give a damn if they die.

No man is an island--John Donne
 

MacMadame

Staying at home
Staff member
Messages
34,690
And before we had all of the information and guidelines we now have?
Who is to say that we have all the information we need right now and we won't find out tomorrow that we need to do even more or even that one of the things we were told to do ends up being counterproductive.

Anyway, there were other examples in various articles posted here where people did follow whatever rules there were in place at the time including even wearing masks. That's just the only one I remember enough details about to post about.
 

Karen-W

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,035
This is the article about the Calgary church celebration where they were trying hard to follow health guidelines that I found quite disturbing.
https://tinyurl.com/yb9ovyrp

Also, twice--both from Becca and from someone previously--we have already heard that churches are not actually planning to follow the guidelines. Both posters stated that there would be little singing.

Health guidelines are no singing. No singing at all.
And if there shouldn't be any singing then that should be followed. It's not as though you can't find decent praise music online to play in a church setting.

I'm particularly interested in the indoor social settings because my niece's youth group is hoping to go back to holding in-person events but mostly indoor meetings including an initiation ceremony for the 2-3 girls we have had waiting to join since late February. The ceremony as it is currently written (nearly 100 years ago) has a lot of physical contact and our adult leadership is actively discussing how we can modify it to meet social distancing guidelines but we had completely forgot about the singing that happens at several points in the ceremony and now that's something else we need to factor into our discussion. It makes me nervous, even though I think we are all being socially conscious about protecting ourselves and each other (I have masks in progress for everyone to wear), so I would appreciate people sharing relevant stories about groups that DID adhere to the guidelines and still experienced an outbreak within their group.
 

canbelto

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,595
@Karen-W heres an article about a gathering that took place May 10 with a bunch of guidelines:

You mean where they sang full out in an enclosed space for how long? And then broke into smaller groups to practice parts where they were NOT socially distanced? And before we had all of the information and guidelines we now have? That was 3 months ago. Let's try something a bit more recent, since the re-openings started.
 

overedge

G.O.A.T.
Messages
27,808
Let's try something a bit more recent, since the re-openings started.
OK, how about this? Which @Theatregirl1122 posted today.
 

Tony Wheeler

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,326
I think there are extremes on both sides- people who have absolutely sat at home and done nothing, either out of actual fear of catching this thing or because maybe they just want to use the excuse to be lazy, and people who have WAY overdone the 'open it all up now, it doesn't matter!!'. I'm not putting anyone down for their decision- just to clarify. I live in a high-rise that has a pool, a gym, all the amenities. It's all been shut down the last 2.5 months. In order to be in any hallway or common area, you mask must be on. NO visitors are allowed past the front desk in the building unless they are immediate family or someone doing an emergency repair. They've locked it down pretty well, and my (big) building has 0 cases to this point.

But, my city (still way behind on the reopening process compared to all of Florida, and for good reason) has always given people the opportunity to walk around outside, get some fresh air, have a little exercise, even go to the park AS LONG AS they could follow simple guidelines - wear a mask, and don't congregate in large groups. The ocean is still shut down, and for a city of people that hardly ever go to the ocean (that's all the visitors), you would think it's the end of the damn world. They closed down the biggest road here to traffic so that bikers and rollerbladers could have something to do. I mentioned in a few other threads that they did try to open part of a park to give people the chance to do something different, and 9,000 citations were given out in the course of one weekend.

So while I would guess most people here are educated enough and have enough common sense to know that they would personally take all the precautions to keep themselves and everyone else around them safe, there are a lot of people in this world that just do not give a fcuk, and they will continue to scream about ALL of their rights being taken away because maybe they got A and B back, but since they don't have C, D, and E, it's still worth the uproar.

And for some of us who are not working and still don't have a plan, it's too much to ask everyone to follow some kind of behavior and just be decent human beings at this point.. they'd rather scream about being discriminated against. There was a group in NYC that decided to throw a drug-fueled party and one of the attendees made about 60 videos for Instagram from it, showing the faces of everyone who was there. Obviously it made the news and people got called out. Their excuses were 'well everyone here has already had it' or 'you don't know what we are going through, we have been so depressed..'. There was even a DJ who went on his social media and gave the most non-apologetic speech ever, saying he needed to make money but no one should be judging him because of a mistake, and then proceeded to lash out at everyone who said something negative about the situation.

So while no, I don't think everyone HAS to sit at home and I still don't think that was ever the case, there are some things that just need to be controlled for now. Open the beach? Cool. But then you have some jackasses that completely disregard any regulations that were posted and now those 10 people, all coming in contact with 10 or however many more people each, are not going to care about what they've done because for them it was more about trying to be 'the voice' against this oh-so-terrible (and apparently in America, democrat-planned) shutdown.
 
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Simone411

Do stand. Do stand six. Do stand six feet from me.
Messages
16,794
ArkLaTex Homepage - Louisiana Beer Burden News

I thought I would share some Louisiana news about the Beer Burden and what's happening right now. As of 2 days ago, the Beer Burden passed the 37K mark, and 15 more deaths were reported.

As of three days ago, Governor Edwards wants Louisiana to have only approved Beer Burden drugs.

As of three days ago, doctors warn health risks remain as Beer Burden restrictions are lifted.

As of today, Northwest Louisiana Veterans Cemetery honors fallen Veterans in Virtual Ceremony.

As of 2 days ago, Beer Burden fears keeping people from reporting strokes to hospitals.

As of 3 days ago, United Way NWLA creates new Beer Burden relief fund.

As of 11 hours ago, Memorial Day even more poignant as veterans die from Beer Burden.

Local church holds prayer service for Veterans that have died from the Beer Burden in Caddo Parish. The video can be seen here - Local Church holds prayer service for Beer Burden victims.

The service was also shown on the Morning Star Facebook page. The church services have been shown on KTAL Channel 6 (local channel) for several weeks now. This preacher chose to show the Veterans service virtually because the Beer Burden cases are still ongoing in North West Louisiana.

For that matter they're still ongoing everywhere. I pray that there will be a vaccine ASAP. I say that prayer every day.

ETA. I noticed the first link doesn't work. If someone knows how to fix it, please do. Thanks! :love:
 

once_upon

New condo owner
Messages
14,615
I would like nothing more than to go to the Old Market and have a nice dinner and glass of wine my favorite restaurant, except to see my grandchildren.

But when my state has yet to meet it's peak, the ICU beds are filling fast, and I see evidence that people cant follow simple infection control, I'm not wandering into any restaurant, church, bar, hair salon, nail salon.

I
 

Debbie S

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,129
I live in a high-rise that has a pool, a gym, all the amenities. It's all been shut down the last 2.5 months. In order to be in any hallway or common area, you mask must be on. NO visitors are allowed past the front desk in the building unless they are immediate family or someone doing an emergency repair. They've locked it down pretty well, and my (big) building has 0 cases to this point.
I wish I lived in your building. Or that my building had your building's mgmt. My building mgmt has always been incompetent, even before C, so I knew not to expect much, but they way they've handled everything, including their communications to residents, has been pretty much a case study on what not to do. They did lock down the amenities, presumably that came from corporate, but everything else has been a free-for-all.

On the theme of reopening, my state's main beach and boardwalk were front and center on national news this weekend. Apparently, many visitors were from DC and other states, particularly NJ. Packed together and little social distancing. Our cases overall and esp in the DC and Baltimore areas are still going up. Hospitalizations are going down, which is why we started phase 1, but I fear this weekend will set us back.
 

Theatregirl1122

Needs a nap
Messages
22,470
There’s who’s whole idea that people’s problem with church is that it’s church and we’re all liberals who hate church or something, which has nothing to do with anything.

Church is a large, sustained indoor activity. Other sustained indoor activities are not being allowed to open right now. People are not saying that theater performances can start as there is social distancing and no singing. People are not saying that indoor sporting events with spectators can start as long as they are socially distanced. Indoor restaurants are not being allowed to open. And none of these things should be open. But yet indoor church has been the exception.
 

SkateSand

Cat Servant
Messages
522
Church is a large, sustained indoor activity. Other sustained indoor activities are not being allowed to open right now. People are not saying that theater performances can start as there is social distancing and no singing. People are not saying that indoor sporting events with spectators can start as long as they are socially distanced. Indoor restaurants are not being allowed to open. And none of these things should be open. But yet indoor church has been the exception.
It's not that way everywhere, though. Where I live, indoor restaurants are open, retail stores and malls are open, and all offices and businesses are open except for gyms, hair salons, movie theaters, and concert venues. Churches here have just been allowed to reopen on a three week trial basis. So we will see how it goes.
 

Theatregirl1122

Needs a nap
Messages
22,470
It's not that way everywhere, though. Where I live, indoor restaurants are open, retail stores and malls are open, and all offices and businesses are open except for gyms, hair salons, movie theaters, and concert venues. Churches here have just been allowed to reopen on a three week trial basis. So we will see how it goes.
Right, but what would make opening a church with social distancing better than opening a movie theatre with social distancing?
 

becca

Well-Known Member
Messages
19,739
I don’t think you can compare a church to a movie theater and well movie theaters are open here.

I wonder if the Baptist Church wore masks. I also think Protestant services have way more singing.

There is a risk with indoor services I would prefer it outside and with no singing.

I must say with this ***** I am sure psychologically it may take time for me to recover I find when a neighbor comes to close I back up.
 

mag

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,198
I don’t think you can compare a church to a movie theater
I think a movie theatre, with social distancing, would be safer than a church with social distancing. The getting in and out of both is a huge problem, but at least at a movie theatre, no one has ever tried to hug me or shake my hand, and there is definitely no singing!
 

once_upon

New condo owner
Messages
14,615
I'm watching the news and they have been interviewing or filming people doing activities this weekend. People participating in a race (virtually), doing prayer vigils for murdered victims, boating, at parks. No one was wearing a mask or social distancing.
 

overedge

G.O.A.T.
Messages
27,808
I think a movie theatre, with social distancing, would be safer than a church with social distancing. The getting in and out of both is a huge problem, but at least at a movie theatre, no one has ever tried to hug me or shake my hand, and there is definitely no singing!
Or passing a plate of money from hand to hand.
 

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