What does re-opening look like?

Yazmeen

Shake it then, shake it now, shake it forever
Messages
5,323
But the point of the matter is everyone there is assuming the risk and I am not going else where and spreading it. Furthermore Mass does not involve a lot of singing compared to other services.

Look the overwhelming number of people survive this *****.
You are unfortunately using the exact same logic that my "You do you, I'll do me" friends are using. You have decided that you are not infected or an asymptomatic carrier, even though you don't know that for sure. You're not going around and spreading it (or so you believe when you go out). Since everyone else who would go to your preferred setting is assuming the risk, you should get to do what you want. That does not mean that everyone in that setting is infection-free, no matter how "healthy" they look. This disease is being MASSIVELY spread by asymptomatic carriers.

Oh, and tons of people have survived this - you feel fine, you're healthy, so why shouldn't you get to do what you want??? And I don't care what you say, this is not your "obligation," you WANT to be there. You WANT to do what you WANT, and you're trying to rationalize it in a way that makes you believe your behavior won't harm others in your mind. If the Pope can hold services virtually, you can attend Mass or worship virtually or privately. PERIOD.
 

manhn

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,983
British Columbia: more coffee shops are opening their spaces, not just take out, people can sit down. Physical distancing of course.

People can reserve camp spots at our provincial parks. BC residents only. Sorry Albertans.

I intend to travel within BC too when allowed, but likely not with my parents. Not only due to health but due to increased incidents of anti-Asian assault. The ones I know about are actually happening at home, but I figure that’s because there are more of us. I don’t want my folks (or me, for that matter) to be more obvious targets.

So, I was thinking Kamloops since I have never been. Tell me I’m paranoid!

Also, Toronto? Are those photos of the people at a park exaggerated? We had the media do that here in Vancouver but when you view those situations from a different angle, the people are physically distancing. My own view, people have done a pretty good job of physical distancing. If not, what is with Toronto? Lack of park space?
 

once_upon

New condo owner
Messages
14,615
The amount of community spread cases following this weekend parties, restaurants and bars opening - some not following regulations set up by their states, graduation parties, family barbeques and church attendance will be an incredible number. In states where healthcare systems are not prepared to handle it.

Yeah I am really bored, there's nothing on TV, I'm not seeing my dad except by zoom, etc. But as more people disregard the common sense infection control measures I see this continuing for a long time.

What was the motto that we learned in elementary or junior high? Give me freedom or give me death-cant remember which Revolutionary War hero said it. Now it's "Give me freedom and give me (or someone I know) death"

Go ahead you do you because we need to get the economy back or because you deserve fun after staying indoors for xx days (even though some of you admitted to not following recommendations as it was) or because you need whatever it is that you need.

I'm sorry healthcare professionals, first responders, food chain personnel you'll be on the high risk, high demand employee need.
 

Erin

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,727
I apologize if this has been posted. It is a quick look at the risks involved with some common summer activities and also explains some ways to reduce risk.

To be honest, I found this article pretty frustrating (and not faulting you for posting it) - the advice within the article was super contradictory. I don't know if it was because they consulted multiple experts who gave them different advice and they weren't very good at synthesizing it coherently or what, but as just one example - they rate a BYOB backyard gathering with one other family as "low to medium risk" and indicate that the other family having to use your bathroom could increase the risk. Meanwhile in the same article spending the whole weekend at a cabin with one other family is "low risk" even though that would presumably have a lot more bathroom sharing (and sharing of a lot of indoor space) than the first activity. And they also state that your friend sharing your bathroom is low risk to begin with, as is using a public restroom.

I get the general point...outdoors is better than indoors, further apart is better than closer together, less time together is better than more time together. They probably could have made the point better than the way they did.
 

bladesofgorey

Well-Known Member
Messages
243
Look the overwhelming number of people survive this *****.
As someone who survived this and is part of an international online community of thousands of survivors - for symptomatic cases a large percentage of people continue to be very ill and have complications that impair their quality of life for weeks and weeks after the ***** has left their system. Whether these health issues will continue to impact survivors and their lifespan is unknown. We are only a few months into this new disease so I guess time will tell.
 

overedge

G.O.A.T.
Messages
27,808
So, I was thinking Kamloops since I have never been. Tell me I’m paranoid!
Kamloops is really pretty. There's not a lot to do there in terms of attractions, but there are lots of beautiful areas for walking/hiking, and beautiful scenery all around.

Also, Toronto? Are those photos of the people at a park exaggerated? We had the media do that here in Vancouver but when you view those situations from a different angle, the people are physically distancing. My own view, people have done a pretty good job of physical distancing. If not, what is with Toronto? Lack of park space?
The Toronto FSUers might know more about this, but the park where those pictures were taken (Trinity-Bellwoods) has a lot of condo and apartment buildings nearby. So when it's sunny and people have been cooped up in teeny apartments, the park is where they're going to go for some outdoor time.
 

Prancer

Needs More Sleep
Staff member
Messages
49,944
And nobody was even talking about questioning the right of someone attending an event that is held under ********* regulations, but rather talking about that regulations might not be sufficient.
This. Exactly.

I have another relative who thinks the same thing, but about the casino, not the church. That's fine, too. Personal responsibility. We can't control every risk, but we can cut down on them with masks, temperature checks, etc.
You keep saying this as if this is what is happening. The only time I have had to wear a mask and have my temperature checked has been a doctor's office and a lab where I had a blood draw, and that's it. I ran several errands yesterday; at least half of the people I saw during those errands were not taking any precautions at all--no masks, no social distancing, nothing. I picked something up at Barnes and Noble; the clerk brought it to a basket outside the door and left it there for me, instructing me to pick it up after she had gone back in the building, all of which should have worked quite smoothly. But as I walked up to get my items, an unmasked woman and her unmasked kids charged ahead of me, read the signs on the door saying the store was closed except for curbside pickup, and banged on the door until the clerk returned. The clerk cracked the door to talk to the woman; the woman yanked the door open wider and fired off several questions. The clerk backed up and the woman stepped closer to ask more and lingered and complained about the store being closed and wanted to know if they had some things in stock. The clerk asked her to please call with those questions and she rolled her eyes and kept insisting that the clerk go and look for her audiobooks. I stood back and waited until they finally left to pick up my items.

That woman was exercising her choice to expose herself and her children to the crud. Okay; but she is also making that choice for everyone else she comes into contact with--and do any of us think that she is being cautious about cutting down on the risk for other people? I don't think the risk here was particularly high--yet. But by all accounts, that risk will go up as we open more and more people exercise their choice to risk exposure.

If the only risk posed by your actions is to you, then more power to you to do whatever you want. But that's not the case here. I don't care if your elderly relatives go to Mass; I do care if your elderly relatives, in their belief that THEY have lived long enough and are willing to accept the risk of catching the crud are also making that decision for other people who may not be willing to do the same. If you want to go to Mass and that is the only thing you do that involved other people, then the risk you pose to others is very low. But how many people who don't give a damn if they die are going to restrict themselves to just going to Mass and not doing anything else that involves other people?

So if all those people who take the decision that they aren't afraid go aroudn their business having fun without fears and then the numbers grow quickly again, then ALL businesses in the state or region were the big event full of "not afraid" people took place will have to close down again and lose money and maybe go bankrupt.
Since some back-and-forth is predicted to happen--even in Sweden--I don't know why this isn't more of a consideration, unless it's that people don't think the numbers will grow again quickly. Or they just don't care what the numbers are, which I think is more the case.
 
Messages
7,825
British Columbia: more coffee shops are opening their spaces, not just take out, people can sit down. Physical distancing of course.

People can reserve camp spots at our provincial parks. BC residents only. Sorry Albertans.

I intend to travel within BC too when allowed, but likely not with my parents. Not only due to health but due to increased incidents of anti-Asian assault. The ones I know about are actually happening at home, but I figure that’s because there are more of us. I don’t want my folks (or me, for that matter) to be more obvious targets.

So, I was thinking Kamloops since I have never been. Tell me I’m paranoid!

Also, Toronto? Are those photos of the people at a park exaggerated? We had the media do that here in Vancouver but when you view those situations from a different angle, the people are physically distancing. My own view, people have done a pretty good job of physical distancing. If not, what is with Toronto? Lack of park space?
Kamloops is super hot in the summer. If you’re planning on doing stuff outside be prepared for 30-40 degree weather. Sun Peaks is cooler but I’ve only been there firefighting so I’m not sure what there is to do in the summer.
 

once_upon

New condo owner
Messages
14,615
Two cities in Iowa - Storm Lake and Fort Dodge have full or nearly full ICU beds.
So yeah lets open churches (happened last weekend in Iowa) and bars.
 

becca

Well-Known Member
Messages
19,739
This. Exactly.



You keep saying this as if this is what is happening. I have had to wear a mask and have my temperature checked has been a doctor's office and a lab where I had a blood draw, and that's it. I ran several errands yesterday; at least half of the people I saw during those errands were not taking any precautions at all--no masks, no social distancing, nothing. I picked something up at Barnes and Noble; the clerk brought it to a basket outside the door and left it there for me, instructing me to pick it up after she had gone back in the building, all of which should have worked quite smoothly. But as I walked up to get my items, an unmasked woman and her unmasked kids charged ahead of me, read the signs on the door saying the store was closed except for curbside pickup, and banged on the door until the clerk returned. The clerk cracked the door to talk to the woman; the woman yanked the door open wider and fired off several questions. The clerk backed up and the woman stepped closer to ask more and lingered and complained about the store being closed and wanted to know if they had some things in stock. The clerk asked her to please call with those questions and she rolled her eyes and kept insisting that the clerk go and look for her audiobooks. I stood back and waited until they finally left to pick up my items.

That woman was exercising her choice to expose herself and her children to the crud. Okay; but she is also making that choice for everyone else she comes into contact with--and do any of us think that she is being cautious about cutting down on the risk for other people? I don't think the risk here was particularly high--yet. But by all accounts, that risk will go up as we open more and more people exercise their choice to risk exposure.

If the only risk posed by your actions is to you, then more power to you to do whatever you want. But that's not the case here. I don't care if your elderly relatives go to Mass; I do care if your elderly relatives, in their belief that THEY have lived long enough and are willing to accept the risk of catching the crud are also making that decision for other people who may not be willing to do the same. If you want to go to Mass and that is the only thing you do that involved other people, then the risk you pose to others is very low. But how many people who don't give a damn if they die are going to restrict themselves to just going to Mass and not doing anything else that involves other people?



Since some back-and-forth is predicted to happen--even in Sweden--I don't know why this isn't more of a consideration, unless it's that people don't think the numbers will grow again quickly. Or they just don't care what the numbers are, which I think is more the case.
I have never said people lived long enough they should just accept the risk.

I said the elderly who go to mass are choosing to accept the risk.

If I was still living with my 70 year old mom who has health conditions I would probably say no. But she is in another state. So I am not Putting others at huge risk.

I have friends who took their babies to Mass I am not so sure I would do that.

So yes when I start seeing others it will be limited and I will be very open about what I am up too.
 

Theatregirl1122

Needs a nap
Messages
22,470
Lets real talk here for a second about everyone's right to do what they want because they've decided they're ready to die/most people survive/they only go to the grocery store.

You understand that grocery stores are full of people, right. Mostly, they're full of people like you who will only be there for an hour or less and are going there to get what you need and getting out.

Except they're not just full of people like you, right? They're also full of employees. Many grocery store employees who are at high risk have had to quit and take their chances with unemployment leaving grocery stores understaffed despite reduced hours. The remaining staff are working very long hours, many of them in the incredibly unrewarding job of shopping for the now incredibly bloated numbers of people ordering pick up and delivery. What used to be a small part of their business is now a big one. And this is both time consuming and frustrating because, when I am shopping for myself and something is sold out, I am annoyed, but I can make a substitution. It is much more difficult when shopping for someone else.

And this experience is miserable right now, because no one is their best self. Customers are angry all the time at product being out. People are not following posted rules. Workers get regularly harassed if they try to enforce posted rules and regularly harassed if they don't. Customers frequently get into screaming fights with each other.

Now lets think about who these workers are. Because they are a variety of people, but very few of them in a position of privilege. Elderly people whose retirement wasn't sufficient to cover their costs (although most of those have left, but not all). Adults with children at home whose child care situation has suddenly become a disaster. Adults with disabilities. College students. Teenagers.

I'm going to focus on the teenagers for a second, because that's who I talk to every day. That's who I get the panicked emails from at midnight. And I know what you're thinking. "Who cares about teenagers? They don't need the money." Here are the two scenarios I'm looking at. Kids who are planning to go to college who have been saving money every chance they get and working every summer they can because they know that their parents can't really afford to help them much, so whenever work offers them hours, they always show up. Even when its too much. And the more difficult situation. The kid whose parent or parents got laid off because of the ********* but the kid now has more hours at the grocery store. Or the kid whose parents worked under the table so they don't even qualify for unemployment.

These kids are emailing me in a panic because they are now working 45-50 hours a week, on their feet all day, wearing masks all day, trying to help support their families in the middle of a *********. Some of them are only 16 (which is not even legal, but no one seems to be paying attention). And this is while they are still actually supposed to be in school and taking 8 classes.

To move back away from my teenagers, you may have parents with small children who are struggling to find child care because there isn't really a safe way to get child care in a *********, but their hours have gone up and they can't turn them down, because who knows where this thing goes.

And these teenagers, or college kids, or parents, or other adults may very well live with their elderly or immunocompromised relatives, something which is especially common in low income communities.

And these workers don't get to pop into the store for an hour. They are there all day every day. I ran into one student a few weeks ago, and she said to me, in the most exhausted voice, "I'm 18. I didn't sign up to be an essential worker. I just want to go home."

So even if you "just go to the grocery store" you are making choices not just for yourself but for these low wage workers who did not actually sign up for this. You are deciding what you expose them to every time you go to the store. No one gets to experience this ********* in a bubble. So if you "just go to the grocery store" and then you take on all these other exposures because "just going to the grocery store" means you won't be a danger to people at the beach or the restaurant or the gym or the church, you are now a danger to the people at the grocery store. So you are not making your own choice because you've decided that you're fine with getting this or you think you are low risk. You are making a choice for them and their families because they are essential workers and they can't leave.
 

overedge

G.O.A.T.
Messages
27,808
Kamloops is super hot in the summer. If you’re planning on doing stuff outside be prepared for 30-40 degree weather. Sun Peaks is cooler but I’ve only been there firefighting so I’m not sure what there is to do in the summer.
Hiking and looking at the mountains is about it :lol: Plus after-hike dining, of course.

There's usually a few special event weekends like music festivals, but I'm guessing not this year.
 

ballettmaus

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,161
I'm willing to take that risk because this is what freedom means. "Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Life is full of rules and regulations. We have speed limits, are required to wear seat belts, each country determines what side of the road we all have to drive on, we have to stop at a red traffic light, wear clothes when we go out etc. Technically, those rules limit your freedoms and personal choices as well, many are designed to protect lives and I don't get why being asked to stay physically distant and wear a mask is so different.



I think the topic simply came up because WE in Germany have a very big outbreak due to a indoor church event,
Two churches in the US shut down as well. https://tinyurl.com/y8kolf7y

The San Francisco Chronicle also has an article that more outbreaks have been tied to churches but I can't read it in full. https://tinyurl.com/y9h6ue7d

And Drosten has said that they've found that they've had as many infections that happened through droplets as they've had through droplets that lingered in the air. (Article in German) https://tinyurl.com/y95kgsoq
 

Louis

Private citizen
Messages
14,349
Any of us could be an asymptomatic carrier of anything. If Becca or anyone is else is not exhibiting symptoms, staying 6' apart from people, wearing a mask, and otherwise following the guidelines of the establishments she attends, then people can fcuk off. The #stayathome crowd are highly symptomatic carriers of hate and selfishness.

I mean, is it really necessary to go to Barnes and Noble? Is it even necessary to go to the grocery store? Is it necessary to go anywhere? For those who really want to cower in place, you can stay in your home for as long as you want, with no contact with anyone. You can get things delivered, microwave your mail, etc., etc. No one is stopping or restricting you. You have full ability to protect yourself and your safety if you really feel it's this important.
 

allezfred

#EpidemiologistsNotEconomists
Staff member
Messages
56,143
Life is full of rules and regulations. We have speed limits, are required to wear seat belts, each country determines what side of the road we all have to drive on, we have to stop at a red traffic light, wear clothes when we go out etc.
It’s all tyranny I tell you! :mitchell:
 

Hedwig

WoolSilk Fanatic
Messages
18,299
well, not all of us are people who only think ME ME ME but are thinking about other people as well.

you might try it.
 

Louis

Private citizen
Messages
14,349
Technically, those rules limit your freedoms and personal choices as well, many are designed to protect lives and I don't get why being asked to stay physically distant and wear a mask is so different.
Why are people raking Becca and others over the coals for doing EXACTLY THIS?

I don't have a problem with some physical distancing, masks, etc. Businesses should set whatever criteria they want (or not open if they don't want to). I have zero sympathy or concern for those who refuse to comply with standards set by businesses. If the business says you need to wear a mask, so be it. Don't like, go somewhere else.

Becca went to a place that's open and followed all the rules. The P.C. police apparently don't like what kind of establishment she visited, so she's now being bullied.

well, not all of us are people who only think ME ME ME but are thinking about other people as well.
Yes, Becca, I, and maybe a few others on this thread are thinking about other people. The rest of you are so goddamned paranoid and selfish that you want to restrict everyone indefinitely, no matter what the consequences or costs, so that YOU can feel marginally safer.

This isn't speed limits or seatbelts -- it's "I don't feel comfortable driving on the highway SO NO ONE CAN." This isn't stopping at a red light. It's stopping at a green light because there might be a invisible person from outer space waiting to cross the street. You're ridiculous.
 

canbelto

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,595

Yes, Becca, I, and maybe a few others on this thread are thinking about other people. The rest of you are so goddamned paranoid and selfish that you want to restrict everyone indefinitely, no matter what the consequences or costs, so that YOU can feel marginally safer.

This isn't speed limits or seatbelts -- it's "I don't feel comfortable driving on the highway SO NO ONE CAN." This isn't stopping at a red light. It's stopping at a green light because there might be a invisible person from outer space waiting to cross the street. You're ridiculous.
FOR THE LAST TIME. No one wants to restrict everyone "indefinitely." When infections go down, when cases go down, when ICU beds clear up, when there are proven treatments/a vaccine, then sure, do whatever you want. But that IS ABSOLUTELY NOT THE CASE in the majority of areas in the U.S.
 

flyingsit

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,172
There are an awful lot of assumptions happening here... but I don’t think anyone here on FSU is advocating for widespread reopening WITHOUT masks or social distancing, BUT at least in the US, we are all seeing lots of photos and video of crowds and people jammed shoulder to shoulder without masks. And we naturally think of slippery slopes and that it might take just one asymptomatic person without a mask to create a large cluster of cases.
 

Hedwig

WoolSilk Fanatic
Messages
18,299
I think people like Louis are not capable of understanding this. Hence his argument of "so that YOU can feel safer".

I feel very safe. I am not very afraid of the illness for ME. But this is not something that he is capable of understanding as has been shown over and over in a lot of threads. I think many people can not understand something that they never experienced. Like caring for humanity or a a feeling of responsibility for the World in general. Since he likely never had it, he cannot understand that this is the driving force for other people to behave responsible.
 

her grace

standing with Mariah
Messages
3,701
My neighbors threw a party in their back yard for 6+ hours. They were definitely not wearing masks or social distancing while their group of more than 10 people shouted, ate, and played loud music. :blah:
 

Louis

Private citizen
Messages
14,349
Caring for humanity and the world is exactly why I want to open up, stop this fearmongering and panic p0rn, and ensure as many people as possible can have as high of quality of life for as many years as they have left.

I think the #stayathome bullies on this thread are vicious, immoral, and lacking empathy for anyone with a worldview that's to the right of communism.
 

canbelto

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,595
Caring for humanity and the world is exactly why I want to open up, stop this fearmongering and panic p0rn, and ensure as many people as possible can have as high of quality of life for as many years as they have left.

I think the #stayathome bullies on this thread are vicious, immoral, and lacking empathy for anyone with a worldview that's to the right of communism.
Yes that's exactly it. We're bad, bad people. :rolleyes:
 

marbri

Hey, Kool-Aid!
Messages
13,068
Caring for humanity and the world is exactly why I want to open up, stop this fearmongering and panic p0rn, and ensure as many people as possible can have as high of quality of life for as many years as they have left.

I think the #stayathome bullies on this thread are vicious, immoral, and lacking empathy for anyone with a worldview that's to the right of communism.
Speaking of ridiculous....
 

ballettmaus

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,161
Becca went to a place that's open and followed all the rules. The P.C. police apparently don't like what kind of establishment she visited, so she's now being bullied.
I'm pretty sure the issue is that churches pose a risk even if the rules are followed.

The German Autobahn doesn't have a speed limit, so driving at 200+ km/h is not against the rules. But it does pose a threat to the driver's life and everyone elses.
The same is true for churches, restaurants and all other indoor activties. Visiting is not against the rules in some places but doing so still poses a threat to the health/life of the person who does it and everyone elses.

In other words, some things may be allowed but that doesn't automatically mean that choosing to do them is the responsible choice.
 

once_upon

New condo owner
Messages
14,615
My neighbors threw a party in their back yard for 6+ hours. They were definitely not wearing masks or social distancing while their group of more than 10 people shouted, ate, and played loud music. :blah:
I'm sorry. We live near a city park. I can tell you that there is very little social distancing or wearing masks. The last 2 weeks large groups gather with loud music going on past 2 am. Even when the parks were closed, it was a nightly occurrence. The parks people came about every other day to put caution tape up blocking the parking lots.
 

allezfred

#EpidemiologistsNotEconomists
Staff member
Messages
56,143
For those who really want to cower in place
I’m sorry. I must have missed the part where you have been tending to the sick or shelf stacking and manning tills in a busy supermarket. Or does you sneaking off for a couple of sneaky drinks with your friends make you a brave little hero now? 🤔
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
Messages
23,081
Why are people raking Becca and others over the coals for doing EXACTLY THIS?
Because you are both being incredibly selfish and not thinking about anyone but yourself. The world does not revolve around YOU. So the rest of us will call it out when we see it. Plus you are in the minority on this one.

First world problem. You should be so lucky.
 

Prancer

Needs More Sleep
Staff member
Messages
49,944
I have never said people lived long enough they should just accept the risk.
I have no idea why you think I was referring to anything you did or did not say.

Any of us could be an asymptomatic carrier of anything. If Becca or anyone is else is not exhibiting symptoms, staying 6' apart from people, wearing a mask, and otherwise following the guidelines of the establishments she attends, then people can fcuk off.
Okay, Louis. And what about when people aren't doing these things?

I mean, is it really necessary to go to Barnes and Noble?
Of course not. But if everyone takes precautions, we should all be able to do that, right? Isn't that what you keep telling us?

So I took precautions. The store took precautions. What part of this is me being at fault for going to B&N? I don't think people should stay at home forever and have never said that they should. If you weren't so busy being overly reactive you might have noticed this. I don't know of anyone on this board who thinks we should stay home forever--a point that has been made umpteen times, yet you keep throwing this at people like this is something they are arguing for.

I do not think that I was at much risk at all in that situation, BTW. I took precautions, my exposure was minimal at worst, and I have no worries at all. Now the clerk had very few choices in that situation. And how many people will that customer--who was taking no precautions, even the ones stipulated by the store--subject to the risks of her choices? And that is, unless my reading comprehension is completely gone, what people are concerned about. What is the cost of opening up at X rate knowing that there will be large groups of people who do not take the very precautions you keep saying should be taken?

So you support people staying home if that is their choice and think that should be supported--even though you KNOW that many people have no such choice. If their jobs open up, they have to go. So you think people should do what they want as long they "are not exhibiting symptoms, staying 6' apart from people, wearing a mask, and otherwise following the guidelines of the establishments" they attend--even though you KNOW that many people are not doing so. If your conditions were being met, then yes, maybe choices would be purely personal. But those conditions are not being met.
 

BittyBug

Exemplifying model behavior
Messages
22,452
For those who really want to cower in place, you can stay in your home for as long as you want, with no contact with anyone.
@Louis I am so sick of your f*cking selfish holier than thou, you know better than anyone else and aren't you so brave and the only one that is willing to actually live even if it means other people die f*ckin bullsh*t. Get the f*ck over your hedonistic self. Staying at home when it is what we have been ordered to do because it's in the interest of public safety is not "cowering in place."

I hope your upstairs neighbors Zumba all day and your other neighbors party all night, and that maybe, maybe, one of these days you'll grow the f*ck up.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 14, Guests: 2)

Top
Do Not Sell My Personal Information