What does re-opening look like?

cholla

High ground loner
Messages
12,100
I am mad about this. if one Bundesland starts the other will soon follow. what the heck is so difficult about wearing a mask inside a shop? This tiny adjustment in daily life is so insignificant for most people and it seems to help a lot.
I don't understand either. The same people who now consider that wearing a mask is a violation of their freedom rights, have no problem covering their head (shoulders, legs, etc...) when entering a place of worship for instance, or wearing a swimming cap at the pool, or a helmet to ride a bike/motorbike, reflective stripped outfits when they go jogging at night, and so on. So why all the fuss about a mask? For most of them it's only for a short time a day. Some do wear scarves over mouth and nose when it's very cold outside, in what way is it different? To me it seems that some people are just seizing the opportunity to be difficult, like spoiled entitled little children. Stupidity has apparently no limits.
 
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CassAgain

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,012
Uh oh. Asa Hutchinson (AK) has acknowledged that after opening up, his state is experiencing a "second peak."
This is in Arkansas (AR), not Alaska (AK). We had an alarming spike in cases this week. We’ve never had a shelter in place or stay home order, though he did close schools, restaurants, bars, salons, barber shops, and gyms. He issued guidelines to churches, made an effort to disable services related to out of state tourism, and strongly cautioned citizens not to leave the state starting in early March. We’ve had no protests and under a hundred deaths, which will probably not be the case by next week. The new cases are mostly related to the state and federal prisons and the poultry industry. I am not defending, just reporting. It will be an interesting place to study once this is all over.

“Essential” businesses included a lot here. Construction never shut down, for example. Lots of institutions like schools used this time for renovations. My husband sells paint, and they have never been busier.
 

becca

Well-Known Member
Messages
19,739
Which IIRC doesn't necessarily have to take place during a regularly scheduled church service. The priest can conduct the Eucharist as long as there is another member of the congregation present, or even on their own in an emergency, and as long as they're not doing it for clearly forbidden reasons.

In a church with a big congregation, the priest might be going out throughout the week to administer the Eucharist in the community as @BittyBug describes. There would have to be a lot of bread consecrated at each weekly Mass to have enough on hand throughout the week.
Well use priests don’t have to consecrate It in the regular schedules service. Priests are encouraged to say Mass daily.

But once again not really fesible to have the Eucharist delivered to everyone at a parish.

And we earlier I never said the Eucharist couldn’t be delivered I said it cannot be consecrated virtually.
 

Yazmeen

Shake it then, shake it now, shake it forever
Messages
5,323
I don't understand either. The same people who now consider that wearing a mask is a violation of their freedom rights, have no problem covering their head (shoulders, legs, etc...) when entering a place of worship for instance, or wearing a swimming cap at the pool, or a helmet to ride a bike/motorbike, reflective stripped outfits when they go jogging at night, and so on. So why all the fuss about a mask? For most of them it's only for a short time a day. Some do wear scarves over mouth and nose when it's very cold outside, in what way is it different? To me it seems that some people are just seizing the opportunity to be difficult, like spoiled entitled little children. Stupidity has apparently no limits.
In the US, it all comes down to "what affects me personally" with a lot of people. What makes me roll my eyes is that these are the same people who insist a bakery has a right to turn away a gay couple requesting a wedding cake. But make them wear a mask???? That's a violation of their "freedom!!!!" And they completely don't see the hypocrisy - it's wrong because now it affects THEM personally.
 

Karen-W

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,035
I was thinking about college football this morning and it occurred to me that if colleges start having football games, they're going to be in for some nasty lawsuits if they don't also have (take your pick) gymnastics, lacrosse, track and field, swimming, field hockey or whatever other sports the university has to try to get roughly equal numbers of women athletes.

Then you'd have the issue of if sports is available schoolwide, why can't drama/filmmaking be? How is putting on a play more risky than football for CV19? Or debating? Or chess? Or any other university sanctioned activity?

I really don't envy colleges and universities trying to decide how to open, and how to stay open if a single dorm becomes a hot spot.
Football provides so much of the revenue stream for athletic departments at the major universities. To quote this article... "Mullens laid out the financials on Friday. UO, like a lot of other university athletic departments, needs the football business churning in order to survive. The football program at Oregon provides 75 percent of the revenue for the entire athletic department. It’s why Mullens has been holed up with the spreadsheets, trying to figure out what kind of budget he’s going to be left with."

The rest of the athletic teams can scream about Title IX all they like but when most of the money to fund THEIR programs comes from the football program (and the rest of it comes from the mens & womens basketball programs in most cases) then they are going to be faced with what amounts to, for college athletics, a no-win situation. If you successfully sue about the lack of access for YOUR program and manage to shut down football as a result, you are still going to lose access to your own program because there simply will not be the revenue there to support ANY programs.

I think you make some very good points. Football is held outside, while gymnastics and traditional large-team volleyball are not. So that would be an argument for being able to start football training based on health reasons while some of the traditional sports used to balance Title IX numbers would be more hazardous for training purposes. However, at some point you'd have to put all those guys on a bus or a plane. And that is not done outdoors. Also, while football is done outside, it is a contact sport that can't be played or practiced at a distance. (And ugh, the thought of those mouthguards does not scream sanitary).
Some football games are held outdoors. Traditionally they are held outdoors. But, then we have all of the domed stadia all over the country so that games can be held no matter the weather. And, many practice facilities, even for college programs, are state-of-the-art indoor centers (surely you've seen the features on the UO athletic facilities and the Moshofsky Center and I know OSU also has indoor practice facilities - my brother does their pest control). So, it isn't at all about what can or cannot be done indoors.

I can't remember where I read it last week but the NFL is working on developing a fully closed face mask that will help prevent the potential spread of disease etc. Not sure how it will work, if it does work, but we'll see what they manage to come up with in the coming months. And if it's in any way workable, I'm sure it will quickly migrate to Division 1 football programs. Agree about the mouthguards though!

As it is, it is sounding like there will be college football in some form this fall.
 

sk8pics

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,004
I am nitpicking, but this is not true. Communion is delivered outside of mass quite frequently to the elderly and ill who cannot make it to church.

Obviously home visits would be dangerous during YKW, but for the record, Communion can be, and frequently is, delivered outside of mass.
I know this has been answered by others, but I wanted to add that I have been a hospital volunteer taking communion to Catholics (and sometimes I give it to non-Catholics too, shhhhh) for about 11 years. It has been a really worthwhile activity, I think, and often very touching. I miss it, and wonder when we’ll be able to resume. Anyway, actual consecration is only done in the context of Mass.

I think I personally am not going to go back to church until I see how things are, a month or maybe two after we reopen. Cases in my area are lower than in the rest of the state, but I still want to see how things are going. The bishop has given a dispensation for awhile longer— I forget how long— and I always :rolleyes: that people have to be told that they don’t have to go when they’re sick or it’s otherwise dangerous to go, or if the churches are closed.
 

Miezekatze

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,969
This baptist church outbreak in Germany has by now led to 107 known infections and a lot of complicated contact tracing, because the churchgoers were not tracked by name.

I'm really annoyed that churches here in Germany practically get to hold masses with a more or less unlimited amount of people AND without having to register the names of the people attending (which could be done just as easily as in a restaurant or any other event), while everybody else has to be comply by all sorts of really strict rules (of course for a good reason) to eben be allowed to open.
I mean a Yoga studio can't even have a class with like 5 pupils inside and you can't have more than 5 golf players on 1000 square meters, but in churches half of the rules that apply everywhere else, somehow are not important anywhere?

I also find that extremely unfair towards for example theaters, movie theaters or singers/musicians/dancers , who basically can't work AT ALL yet, because the rules and limits for spectators are so strict, that it basically makes no sense to open.

I see that religious people want to attend mass, but I don't see why they should be exempt from contact lists or limits of attendees.
 

Miezekatze

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,969
Especially considering that looking at Germany and world-wide religious events seem to be among the riskiest events AND are usually attended by a lot of people in a high risk age group.
 

missing

Well-Known To Whom She Wonders
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3,260
Football provides so much of the revenue stream for athletic departments at the major universities. To quote this article... "Mullens laid out the financials on Friday. UO, like a lot of other university athletic departments, needs the football business churning in order to survive. The football program at Oregon provides 75 percent of the revenue for the entire athletic department. It’s why Mullens has been holed up with the spreadsheets, trying to figure out what kind of budget he’s going to be left with."

The rest of the athletic teams can scream about Title IX all they like but when most of the money to fund THEIR programs comes from the football program (and the rest of it comes from the mens & womens basketball programs in most cases) then they are going to be faced with what amounts to, for college athletics, a no-win situation. If you successfully sue about the lack of access for YOUR program and manage to shut down football as a result, you are still going to lose access to your own program because there simply will not be the revenue there to support ANY programs.



Some football games are held outdoors. Traditionally they are held outdoors. But, then we have all of the domed stadia all over the country so that games can be held no matter the weather. And, many practice facilities, even for college programs, are state-of-the-art indoor centers (surely you've seen the features on the UO athletic facilities and the Moshofsky Center and I know OSU also has indoor practice facilities - my brother does their pest control). So, it isn't at all about what can or cannot be done indoors.

I can't remember where I read it last week but the NFL is working on developing a fully closed face mask that will help prevent the potential spread of disease etc. Not sure how it will work, if it does work, but we'll see what they manage to come up with in the coming months. And if it's in any way workable, I'm sure it will quickly migrate to Division 1 football programs. Agree about the mouthguards though!

As it is, it is sounding like there will be college football in some form this fall.
A tiny bit of googling indicates that college football is not a one answer fits all situation.

There’s no public database of FCS financial information, but in 2017, the NCAA reported that 98% of FCS football programs -- all but three -- lost money, with the median deficit at $2.4 million. In the past decade, average attendance at FCS games has fallen 11%.

As schools lose millions on football, they balance their athletic budgets with money from the academic side of the institution, or directly from the students via tuition fees.


But even if it's accurate that college football pays (under ordinary circumstances) for 75% of other sports costs, it doesn't matter. Universities, of the sort that field athletic teams, are not for profit institutions. They are not the NFL. They have obligations to all their students, male and female, athletic and academic.

In addition, much of what college football brings in is from attendance at the games. It's more than likely there won't be people in the stands, buying tickets and beer and souvenirs. The universities will still have the TV revenues, but they'll also still have coaching staffs and transportation and insurance to pay for. Other sports (fencing, field hockey, lacrosse, etc.) have much lower costs and involve many more students.
 
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becca

Well-Known Member
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19,739
Masses don’t have an unlimited number of people there are social distancing measures in place and they have said they will turn people away. If they can’t sit them six feet away.

In reality I just got back and honestly there were only like 80 people.So not densely packed at all.
 

cholla

High ground loner
Messages
12,100
Masses don’t have an unlimited number of people there are social distancing measures in place and they have said they will turn people away. If they can’t sit them six feet away.

In reality I just got back and honestly there were only like 80 people.So not densely packed at all.
Since when do you live in Germany ? The US is not the only country on earth and it can happen that things are different in other countries. Hedwig and Mietzekatze are NOT in the US. And even in the US it can also happen that things are different from a place to another. What you only see happening locally may not be a generality, even within the US.

In my area beginning of May : service for an old lady who died of something unrelated to Cov19. 10 people in attendance (the maximum allowed) and in a cathedral, not a tiny chapel. None of them was sick at the time. 17 days later, 64 people infected. Not all of them are developing symptoms but a third of them do and 2 are critical. The widower and a 35 y.o.mother of 3, with no underlying condition. Bad luck, not a generality either. But that shows how hard it is to control this shit. With the lift of lockdown the 10 met lots of other people. They still haven't tracked and tested them all. I am in favor of the lift. But people have to be very careful. A lot are not.
 
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becca

Well-Known Member
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19,739
Since when do you live in Germany ? The US is not the only country on earth and it can happen that things are different in other countries. Hedwig and Mietzekatze are NOT in the US. And even in the US it can also happen that things are different from a place to another. What you only see happening locally may not be a generality, even within the US.

In my area beginning of May : service for an old lady who died of something unrelated to Cov19. 10 people in attendance (the maximum allowed) and in a cathedral, not a tiny chapel. None of them was sick at the time. 17 days later, 64 people infected. Not all of them are developing symptoms but a third of them do and 2 are critical. The widower and a 35 y.o.mother of 3, with no underlying condition. Bad luck, not a generality either. But that shows how hard it is to control this shit. With the lift of lockdown the 10 met lots of other people. They still haven't tracked and tested them all. I am in favor of the lift. But people have to be very careful. A lot are not.
I know people have to be very careful and your correct a lot or not.

For me with the ***** looking to be a reality for years. I need to find a Balance to where I can live my life.

I would like to point out to I am currently working from home and I have no elderly people here in San Antonio that I put at risk. I also live by myself.

I am social distancing to point where if I get sick (and I won’t go if I do) I am not likely to infect a whole lot of others.

At some point people have to make choices.
 

love skating

Clueless American
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2,547
Was very happy to hear my pastor's comments today during their livestream regarding reopening. He said the most important thing is the health and safety of the people. He said they will follow the county's guidelines as well as the governor. But that even if they get the okay to open the church, they won't do so until they feel it's safe. I love that my church is being cautious.
 

Hedwig

WoolSilk Fanatic
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18,299
Since when do you live in Germany ? The US is not the only country on earth and it can happen that things are different in other countries. Hedwig and Mietzekatze are NOT in the US. And even in the US it can also happen that things are different from a place to another. What you only see happening locally may not be a generality, even within the US.

In my area beginning of May : service for an old lady who died of something unrelated to Cov19. 10 people in attendance (the maximum allowed) and in a cathedral, not a tiny chapel. None of them was sick at the time. 17 days later, 64 people infected. Not all of them are developing symptoms but a third of them do and 2 are critical. The widower and a 35 y.o.mother of 3, with no underlying condition. Bad luck, not a generality either. But that shows how hard it is to control this shit. With the lift of lockdown the 10 met lots of other people. They still haven't tracked and tested them all. I am in favor of the lift. But people have to be very careful. A lot are not.
that is the point. I would not care so much if the people who are infected are only those that are not careful.
No, that is wrong - I would care as well. Because some of them did not have a choice, some are stupid or uneducated and no one deserves to die because of that.

but I care even more for those (maybe many) who try to be careful and then meet someone - maybe in a supermarket, maybe at a doctors office....who just "HAD TO" eat in a restaurant or "HAD TO" go to church and then get infected and die. And I care that it will take ages to lift restrictions because people are not careful. I think here in Germany really most are. If I read social media or newspapers there is a lot of talk about people who don't follow the safety rules - but if I look around me - most are very careful in public. Everyone I see wears a mask in shops, in public transport and so on.
 

spinZZ

Active Member
Messages
104
I don't understand either. The same people who now consider that wearing a mask is a violation of their freedom rights, have no problem covering their head (shoulders, legs, etc...) when entering a place of worship for instance, or wearing a swimming cap at the pool, or a helmet to ride a bike/motorbike, reflective stripped outfits when they go jogging at night, and so on. So why all the fuss about a mask? For most of them it's only for a short time a day. Some do wear scarves over mouth and nose when it's very cold outside, in what way is it different? To me it seems that some people are just seizing the opportunity to be difficult, like spoiled entitled little children. Stupidity has apparently no limits.
Doesn't surprise me. I'm old enough to remember when many safety items that we now take for granted were not routine; e.g., seat belts in cars, motorcycle helmets, bike helmets .... Each time legislation was enacted to mandate use of these items, there was always a vocal group protesting government intrusion and loss of individual freedom. There were enough people opposed to mandatory use of seat belts initially that some car manufacturers came up with klugy designs to force compliance (such as ignition locks that prevented you from starting the car unless the seat beat was latched). When the motorcycle helmet law was first passed in my home state at the time, there were of course protest rallies by macho, macho bikers. The law initially did not have specifications on helmet requirements. To comply with the letter of the law, but to also show their disdain, some wore metal buckets; others wore WWI German army helmets.
 

allezfred

#EpidemiologistsNotEconomists
Staff member
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For me with the ***** looking to be a reality for years. I need to find a Balance to where I can live my life.
If your god mandates you put your life at risk to pray, then he is a dickhead. Do you think your god is a dickhead?
 

canbelto

Well-Known Member
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3,595
I know people have to be very careful and your correct a lot or not.

For me with the ***** looking to be a reality for years. I need to find a Balance to where I can live my life.

I would like to point out to I am currently working from home and I have no elderly people here in San Antonio that I put at risk. I also live by myself.

I am social distancing to point where if I get sick (and I won’t go if I do) I am not likely to infect a whole lot of others.


At some point people have to make choices.
You realize that as most churches tend to trend older you might be asymptomatic but be putting someone else's much weaker immune system at risk right?

I think the issue with churches right now is that many church congregations trend older. Singing has been proven to be a high risk activity for infection.

Again, are you saying you can't LIVE without every week Church service?
 

once_upon

New condo owner
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14,615
Again, are you saying you can't LIVE without every week Church service?
It may be tested that you cant live if you GO to church.

Thankfully my church is not going to rush in and hold in building services just because some idiot president says go, we need more prayer. Because you can actually pray in many settings including sitting in the recliner in your pjs.
 

becca

Well-Known Member
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19,739
If your god mandates you put your life at risk to pray, then he is a dickhead. Do you think your god is a dickhead?
Where did I say my God is mandating me to go? The obligation to end Mass is suspended. But things are opening up and I can go if I want.
 

overedge

G.O.A.T.
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27,808
Where did I say my God is mandating me to go? The obligation to end Mass is suspended. But things are opening up and I can go if I want.
And put yourself and others at risk by doing so. The v*r*s is asymptomatic. Someone can be carrying it and look perfectly healthy. The more places you go and the more people you are near to, the greater the risk that you could either pick up the v*r*s yourself or be transmitting it to others. It only takes one contact.
 

becca

Well-Known Member
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19,739
You realize that as most churches tend to trend older you might be asymptomatic but be putting someone else's much weaker immune system at risk right?

I think the issue with churches right now is that many church congregations trend older. Singing has been proven to be a high risk activity for infection.

Again, are you saying you can't LIVE without every week Church service?
First of all I am standing six feet away from everyone. Wearing a make. Second people with underlying conditions are encouraged to stay home.

Anyone who is choosing to go is choosing that risk.

Motorcycles are dangerous people chose to drive them.

Some of the people there are older yes. But maybe to then given that they are older the risk is worth it.

If I was pregnant or I was living with babies or someone who is vulnerable I wouldn’t risk it. But I live by myself if I get it it’s far more likely I get it from the elderly person at Mass then I give it to the elderly person at Mass given my own level of social distancing.

Some of this frankly for me is it’s nice to be around people even for an hour. I wouldn’t go to a restaurant.

This can go on for years right now I am trying to decide what risks are worth it to me and what aren’t.
 

overedge

G.O.A.T.
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27,808
First of all I am standing six feet away from everyone. Second people with underlying conditions are encouraged to stay home.
And if they're following your line of logic, they're not staying home. "Encouraging" people at risk or people who are ill not to attend is not going to stop the v*r*s from spreading. Especially when people can have it and not know it.
 

becca

Well-Known Member
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19,739
And if they're following your line of logic, they're not staying home. "Encouraging" people at risk or people who are ill not to attend is not going to stop the v*r*s from spreading. Especially when people can have it and not know it.
Yes. Which is why social distancing and masks look there were very few people at Mass this morning.
I also have no doubt if things get bad in our city again that are Archbishop will suspend Mass again.
 

canbelto

Well-Known Member
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3,595
Some of the people there are older yes. But maybe to then given that they are older the risk is worth it.
I don't get this one at all. Why would the risk be "worth it" for older people? I think "older" people (and I'm talking 65+ which is when ***** risks seem to skyrocket) still have a lot of life left in them. And no one wants to die alone in a hospital on a ventilator.

I mean, do your thing, but your posts seem to make the assumption that physical masses are ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY because of the eucharist and they are not. The Pope has not held in an in-person mass for months.
 

once_upon

New condo owner
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14,615
@becca among those who feel obligated or have a need to attend are those at risk. If I look at our traditional service attendance its probably 75% or higher over 70 and probably have many other risk factors. They are the ones who would go back immediately, unless they live in a senior living center where leaving the complex would evict you (my dad's complex owners have sent out those notices)

Besides offering online services several times a week - Sunday, Monday, Wednesday and Thursday, they offer a phone in service specifically geared to those who are in assisted living/skilled care. Tuesday evenings are dedicated to committee meetings via zoom. Church can happen
 

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